Most likely you have one or several modes.
You can look in to a way of finding out.
Buy a XTZ Room analyzer pro II. It is complete and it'll show you exactly what is the problem. You can also use a Rives Audio PARC. The PARC is easy to set once you have the Room analyzer pro II. You just use the settings that RA pro II will give you, frequency, Q-value and level and feed it to the PARC. If you need to rid such modes most stuff will not suffice. You can also use Svana (diffusor.com) V-6 and V-4. These will do but they are large and very very heavy. I have used all most all Gik Acoustic panels, nothing will rid those low frequent modes. Not even the Monster bass absorbers (4 units) is anywhere near doing what the PARC does.
I use 14 Gik panels now (242,244 and TriTraps) and a PARC (measured with XTZ RA pro II). Best results you obtain by using both acoustical treatments and a PARC. I can assure you, this will take you where you need to go. You should now, bass modes doesn't only affect bass, it affects the whole range. You obtain better clarity, presence and PRAT. No lumpy swollen bass. |
If you ask 10 people if a PARC is the key, i guess you get opinions that differ. YES, it is in the signal path all the time.
You can use a Bypass button to shut it off if you like to do so with older, less dynamic and bass heavy recordings.
The PARC is only an EQ, it is not an instrument that helps you read/measure the room.
For this, i suggest you buy XTZ - Room analyzer pro II.
http://www.xtz.se/uk/products/measurement-system/room-analyzer-ii-proT
It is probably among the cheaper of all these kits and many acoustical companies use this prog and some dealers of Rives Audio also use it as it is cheaper than BARE (Rives own kit).
ALL is included, just plug it in and run the sequence. You will find it easy to use. If you buy this kit you can do alot of measurements (from 15hz and beyond) or you can set it up as instructions say and you get data you can start off with and you can also leave it like "this". "This" data you get, is the frequency or frequencies + the Q-value and the level (+db) the mode/modes. When you have the data of both channels (you can measure both separately and set both channels independant), you just type them into the PARC.
You deduct the db peaks of the mode(s). You need not set it at flat (linear), if you don't wish to. You can fine tune the setting after what you like if you do not wish to use flat.
But, if you use for example Gic acoustic devices along with PARC, you can void flutter echo and "bass mumble". The more panels you use, the more damped it will be. Some may not like this, some do. That is why i suggest you use both XTZ RA pro II and Gik acoustics devices. The Room analyzer pro II is not at all much more expensive than the original Room analyzer, but it is delivered with a better microphone and has more features. With Gik devices and PARC, you can set up your system almost in any room and find a very good set up that you like. If you buy the most advanced acoustical devices, and the heavy large bass absorbers from ex.
http://www.performanceacousticslabs.com/PAL/Products-Acoustics_Listening_Rooms.html
Look at Varitune V6 and V4.
You'll notice these are large and heavy. They work, they really do, but you might need 2 or 4 or 6 or 8 units.
All pending on how much db and how many modes you'll need to rid (lower in db).
An EQ is a good choice due to the fact that it will help you get a less boomy sound without a need to use these bass absorbers.
The EQ does not boost, just deduct level. Not everything is for every one, but the benefits are surely larger than those on the negative side.
What you will notice, is that it is a larger difference in dynamics at your recordings. Not all people like near flat (linear) response. The PARC will only rid the mode(s).
The devices from for instance Gik, will help you tune the room byond modes. But as mentioned, for the most crude bass modes you will need the PARC.
When you have (if you will buy these things) all done, you probably will notice a significant change in the whole range you hear. Then you can start looking over cables, tweaks and/ or repositioning your speakers etc. This kit will make the soundfield more precise less prone to let the room interact as much.
What is so nice with for example Giks 242, 244 and Tritraps is that they are light in weight. The PARC is small and not heavy. It is not as filling the whole room with heavy bass absorbers and diffusors all over. Using only acoustical devices, is not always so easy to use everywhere (due to size, weight and wives, girlfriends).
This kit that i use, helps me to set up my system in both a small room and a large room.
I can listen to all sorts of music and i can change settings if i want to. I believe in my head and heart, if you could hear this for yourself and cope with what a full kit would do, you would find more benefits to it all and it makes sense.
I play loud, very loud at times. I have been through lots of equiptment way more cosly than my current system. But this gives an illusion of doing all genres without issues and at times it's like using headphones. Just much more exciting if you get what i mean. Ofcourse you can ask and ask again if you want. I understand if some things might be of consideration. After all, it took my years to get it through that this is the best way for me. I hope i am not to unclear!? |
It won't suffice, if you just don't believe me, it is ok with me. But when you measure the room you will see with your own eyes. I have made lots of measurements.
The Room analyzer is so easy and it is within +/-1db. Bass modes are tricky. I had my room drawn to get best online help with ideas and bough very much more units than i was told i would need. It did not do. I also had a pro acoustical company over here to overlook the room and what i had done and other options.
I must admit, it is ofcourse pending on the room. I have noticed many just don't gripe this or maybe, when they understand the costs to do it good, it is a burden they just don't accept. But on the other hand. When we evaluate gear, it is difficult to honestly say what they do or just won't when acoustics interacts as much as it does. The bass "colours" so much. When it is under control, you'll notice an improvment in the midrange and the top end also. Depth, 3-d, PRAT, presence etc etc.
Gears you might have been rejecting, might be good. I have talked to a few dealers aware of this and they also say, many people ending up repeating mistakes based on faulty assumptions. I think it's a bit sad. I've been through 11 apartments and none of them was perfect, far from it.
A small room can actually work good if taken care of. I am no expert, far from it. But since i have leveled alot with Gik and the pro company overhere i have learned that i must cope with what matters to void even more costly mistakes.
I would start off buying Tritraps stacked on top of each other in all corners. Also using 244 and 242 behind the speakers and if possible, 242 or a diffusor in the ceiling.
The PARC is an analog piece of equiptment and not as most of them, digital. When you use the PARC, the Gik (or similar gears and brands) gear is actually making even more sense. I am not writing this to stomp on anyones toes. I do it due to the fact i now know, i should have gone this route earlier. I know this phenomena cause quite a stir in the head for some. It might seem a bit "too much"!
True and fully working low frequent absorbers must be huge to work. Those small devices doesn't "fix" low bass. This is why the PARC is existing in the first place.
Sorry if this seems like bad news coming from me,... i truely am. |
Monitors are perhaps a safer move. Assuming that people seems to go through acoustics half hearted. The risk with fullrange speakers (most often floor standers) is always that bass modes will be unavoidable and it cost some to get the bass modes an the rest under control.
Looking through some threads, also talking to acoustics that work this every day, has made me understand. None of the audio-bugged i have visited has done what is needed to make the environment nearly as good as the rest of the system.
Another bizarre thing here is cable dealers, who claims this can be solved with different cables. I guess a graph can tell each and everyone how much bass modes and dips can affect the whole frequency range. Basically, the room (environment) is as important as the system. |
Good question, i have tried them all. What i ment was, hope he does not fall for a sales-hype that can come in many different suggestions. I also ment, that an idiot must realize reading a graph, that not many things can solve bass modes of significant + db's. I can measure a somewhat result of a bass panel absorber. What they do for a low bass peak mode is pretty much nothing. That is raw fact. A XTZ RA pro II cost no more than a rather cheap power chord. Such kit's did cost alot a few years ago. Don't rely on things you can't verify. There are to many vested crooks wishing to earn your cash. When i mention this cable soloution, it is actually a suggestion i was getting from a manufacturer. He was so into this i began to wonder if i could walk on water buying a set of his magic cables. Ah, you get the point. I suggest the OP try to mail Richard Bird at Rives and also Gik acoustics, just to see what responses he'll get. Both companies are very nice. From this point he can figure himself what to do. As mention and to repeat myself, the RA pro II is not to throw money for the pigs. It is a good way to actually see, understand and learn what to do. |
Mechans, ofcourse. Back off a few years or more, such programs (complete kits) was very much more expensive and not as good. Not to to mention, as easy to use. The XTZ is advanced and great quality for a more than a resonable cost all new. This is also why many companies could rely on the fact, we could not check facts for ourselves, but rather relied on their sales-hype. |
Nope, it should work. It's probably more of *b.
I used Varitune V-6 before and more of them, absorbed more db. Using the PARC, i just deduct more level, if needed. I also have 43Hz as a major peak |
For OP, if you can measure your room with XTZ RA pro II, you can order special tuned Scopus Traps. This way (measured), you can start off buying only several Scopus to start off ridding the modes. Measuring helps you and help Gik with two things.
1) Determine at what frequency or frequencies you'll have the peaks.
2) The actual level in db the modes are.
If you do not measure, you'll have to guess and might end up absorbing less specific which in turn, will not help you ridding the actual mode at that degree you'll need.
When measured and you know the actual level in db of the mode(s). You can tell that to Gik and they will be able to tell you how many panels you'll need. Also, custom make them to absorb (better/more) at this or these frequencies.
When that is done and installed, you can easily determine if you feel more panels are needed. Maybe not!
Ceiling usually is a problem. Concrete walls and ceiling can give a harder reflection. Some usually blame cables for being bright, this can be due to the ceiling, walls. Glass (windows) are even worse.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_scopus_tuned_traps.html
I use 242 in the ceiling, but if i had bought now i had bought GridFusors. Placement in ceiling you can spot doing like this. Sit in your listening position, have a friend walking at each side between speakers and where you sit. When you see left speaker at left side that is first reflection, when you'll see right speaker at left side it is second reflection. Ofcourse, you can do same at right side of listening position. In line between these sides, the ceiling reflections are located. Now you can determine where to put ceiling panels aswell as side reflection panels. For example, in my room the ceiling reflection has a huge impact.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_gridfusor_acoustic_diffusors.html
Bass boom:
For instance, i have a big mode at 43Hz (around 19db!).
So for me it had been wise to try Scopus and ask Gik to specially tune a kit of absorbers as close as possible to absorb at 43Hz. This i had never known if i couldn't measure my room. I can measure in corners and listening position where modes actually develops and at what specific frequencies. I can also see where in the range i have big dips (opposite to modes/peaks). |
Jim, i did not notice Martykl uses a PARC, but i do.
PARC is between pre and power, or if you'd use a cdp with volume, between cdp and power.
You can bypass it if needed and it is both rca or fully balanced (xlr).
It works the range 16-350Hz and 1-3 modes per channel individually set (left/right).
Affect sound quality, it does not affect in terms of resolution. Maybe if you use über expensive gear. I can't answer that. If you look at mys system under Nearfield you'll see what i use. |
I wouldn't go against Madfloyds input. But it is not a bad choice buying PARC. As always there are different opinions. But to be clear, this is among the very best of choices. I experience no sucked out life in my my system. Buying a digital dito with inbuilt dac means you no longer can obtain what cdp you prefer as those digital room tuners uses the inbuilt dac.
Buy a used PARC and try it. Or have a home trial. Do remember, the room should be measured or you'll end up setting it up wrong. It is very much more difficult coming anywhere near using an analog spl meter than for instance XTZ Room analyzer pro II. I should now, i have them both. I also feel i have to put another thing into this subject. When you measure, set what data you'll get at the PARC. Also try to change levels of deduction at the PARC. That is to say, if you are about to drop 10/5 or 3 db as an example. Do try to go back with 5-10% increments in level.
Do this until you are satisfied by ear (fine tune by ear). The data you'll get from Room analyzer will give you frequency, Q-value and actual mode(s) in db. It is the db levels you tune by ear if you feel it don't sound as good as it looks when measured.
This will all be veryfied by Richard Bird at Rives.
It is very easy if you get the PARC and Room analyzer.
For best results, also try acoustical devices. Gik acoustics is a good choice as mentioned.
I have a wide and deep soundstage which is very vivid and smooth with great dynamical impact. I wouldn't even jump this thread give my point if i wasn't satisfied. |
Please tell us how you did with all later on! |
