How Electricity Actually Works

@deludedaudiophile said:

Good reason to use coaxial cable

Glad you mentioned coaxial cables. Great example for the discussion of this thread.

Here is how an AC signal travels in a coax cable. Note the signal does not flow in the center conductor. Note the signal does not travel back and forth from the source to the load. Rather it travels in one direction from the source to the load outside the center conductor through the insulation, dielectric.

Example: Power flow in a coaxial cable

czarivey

4,837 posts

05-02-2022 at 11:37am

@jea48

In all of the books of electronics and electrical engineering, the electric signal through the conductor is the ordered motion of electrons

@czarivey

This guy wrote a few books too...

Here’s an article he wrote a few years ago.

What is Electronics - Ralph Morrison

Here is an excerpt from the article:

Storing or moving energy.

There is a common misconception that signals are carried in conductors. Somehow this association crosses over to the idea that conductors carry both signals and energy. A few simple calculations can show that this is a false idea. Consider a 50-ohm transmission line carrying a 5-volt logic signal. The initial current at switch closure is 500 mA. A typical trace is a a gram-mole of copper that has 6 x 10²³ copper atoms (Avogadro’s number). Each atom can contribute one electron to current flow. Knowing the charge on an electron makes it easy to show that the average electron velocity for 500 mA is a few centimeters per second. What is even more interesting is that only a trillion electrons are involved in this current flow. This means that only one electron in a trillion carries the current. This also says that the magnetic field that moves energy is not located in the conductors. The only explanation that makes sense is that energy in the magnetic field must be located in the space between two conductors. Conductors end up directing energy flow - not carrying the energy.

Here is another article written by the Late Ralph Morrison:

electric signal travels through the conductor approximately 5c i.e. 5 speeds of light.

@czarivey 

What is the carrier through the conductor at such a high speed?

 Not electrons...

Not electric charge... 

b

deludedaudiophile

169 posts

05-01-2022 at 07:29am 

This does have implications for our audio cabling...

 

What implication would that be?

Most obvious is why the dielectric, insulation, used to cover the bare conductor on ICs and speaker cables can effect the sound. Example Teflon vs cheap PVC. 

Going even deeper it may also explain why the geometry build of a cable can have an impact on the sound of a cable.  Move the discussion from the signal energy traveling in the conductor  to traveling outside the conductor through the dielectric  in the form of an EM, electromagnetic, wave traveling in one direction from the source to the load at near the speed of light in a vacuum. Note the EM wave is not confined in the dielectric... It extends beyond the insulation. What effect does cable geometry have on the signal EM wave?  What effect does shielding have on the signal EM wave?

.

@deludedaudiophile , and @czarivey 

Your thoughts...

Understanding Electricity and Circuits: What the Text Books ...

.

@czarivey

Current doesn’t carry the signal. The electric charge moves too slow... As slow as cold Maple Syrup. Electrons don’t carry the signal either. They pretty much vibrate in place and hardly move at all. And the signal definitely does not flow back in forth from the source to the load. The signal travels is one direction from the source to the load in the form of an electromagnet wave in the space between the conductors at near the speed of of light in a vacuum.

As for Ralph Morrison you obviously don’t understand what he is saying.

It is also obvious you didn’t read the other link I provided for you to read.

deludedaudiophile

210 posts

05-04-2022 at 08:14am

@jea48

 

I skimmed it. What were you questioning?

@deludedaudiophile

I wasn’t questioning anything the educator had to say. I just wanted to see if you agreed....

.

@deludedaudiophile

Thanks for the thoughtful and intelligent response. I still have a problem wrapping my mind around some of it. For one you can create a magnetic field from an electric field. And an electric field can be created from a magnetic field.

I am still a little confused what exactly creates the current in the conductor. I have read the EM wave energy creates it. The bigger the connected loaded to the source the greater the energy from the source is required. More energy the greater the current in the circuit conductor.

My understanding;

Energy is consumed by a load. Current is not. Current leaves the source and returns to the source. The EM wave does not flow in the conductor. Therefore energy does not flow in the conductor. The EM wave energy flows in the space between the conductors in one direction from the source to the load at near the speed of light in vacuum. Current returns to the source. Energy does not.

.

@deludedaudiophile

Thanks for the response.

Your comments are on par with things I have read since 2010 on the subject matter.

I read nothing in your post that differed from what the Late Ralph Morrison, Herman (agon member), the Late almarg (agon member), William J Beaty ( Misconceptions Spread By K-6 Textbooks: "Electricity"), Ian M. Sefton (School of Physics, The University of Sydney, Australia), and countless others I consider authorities on the subject matter.

I knew better when I said the load consumes energy. It really doesn’t. Energy is not consumed... I like your term the energy is transferred.

Question:

Is the Law of Physics considered theory? If yes then why not Ohms Law considered theory? I don’t think the Late Ralph Morrison considered it theory.

His words:

Storing or moving energy.

There is a common misconception that signals are carried in conductors. Somehow this association crosses over to the idea that conductors carry both signals and energy. A few simple calculations can show that this is a false idea. Consider a 50-ohm transmission line carrying a 5-volt logic signal. The initial current at switch closure is 500 mA. A typical trace is a a gram-mole of copper that has 6 x 10²³ copper atoms (Avogadro’s number). Each atom can contribute one electron to current flow. Knowing the charge on an electron makes it easy to show that the average electron velocity for 500 mA is a few centimeters per second. What is even more interesting is that only a trillion electrons are involved in this current flow. This means that only one electron in a trillion carries the current. This also says that the magnetic field that moves energy is not located in the conductors. The only explanation that makes sense is that energy in the magnetic field must be located in the space between two conductors.Conductors end up directing energy flow - not carrying the energy.

The electric field in the conductor that causes current flow presents a similar picture. For a transmission line trace 5 mils above a ground plane, the electric field strength in the space under the trace is about 49,000 V/m. The electric field inside the conductor might be 0.1 V per meter. Energy in an electric field is proportional to field strength squared. The ratio of the square of field strengths in and near a conductor is about 2.4 x 10¹¹. It is safe to say that there is very little electric or magnetic field energy in a trace or conducting plane. Since the energy is present and it is not in the conductors it must be in the space between the conductors. This is true for sine waves or square waves at all frequencies including dc. This one idea is not often discussed in circuit theory. This one idea solves most interference problems. This one idea is at the heart of a good circuit board layout. If the energy that represents information is carried in spaces it makes sense that we must keep these spaces free from interfering fields. The path should also control the characteristic impedance so there are controlled reflections. What we really need to do is supply a smooth path for logic energy flow.

The math part is over my head... Do you disagree with what Morrison said? Where would you differ?

Can we say as a matter of fact the signal does not travel in the conductor but rather outside the conductor in the space between the conductors?

Would you agree the signal voltage creates the EM wave? If not how would define, explain, it.

Also am I wrong in saying there are multitudes of varying signal EM waves in a typical analog recording? Vocal(s), musical instruments.. I would say it is quite complex to say the least. Am I wrong?

Best regards,

Jim

I think the simple answer to "Does this have implications for audio cabling" is no. I didn’t see anything in the presentation that would make a whit of difference anymore than it would to television, refrigeration, lighting, power recliners, coffee machines or any other electric devices in your house.

For those that continue to believe electrons, electric charge, carry the energy from the power plant to our homes would be living in the dark if true.... The energy generated at the power plant would never leave the plant. It is impossible for electrons/electric charge to jump across the the gap from the primary winding to the secondary winding of the step up transformers at the power plant. But yet the electrical energy that is generated at the power plant is the same electrical energy that enters our homes. The electric charge never gets past the primary winding of the step up transformers at the plant. The electric charge pretty much just vibrates in place and moves as slow as cold maple syrup in the closed circuit loop.

It is impossible for those stunk in the belief that an audio signal flows back and forth in a conductor from a source to an amplifier or to a speaker to understand how an interconnect or speaker cable could possibly sound different from one another. But yet for many of us they do...

@oldrooney

I received your PM. Agon blocks Web Links in a PM... Below are some posts from the Late rcrump, ( Bob Crump) that may help.

Here is one post of rcrump’s from the thread.

https://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=cables&n=12372&highlight=rcrump+wire+direction

Here is the entire thread.

https://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=cables&n=12332&highlight=rcrump+wire+direction

Here is another thread where rcrump talks about about wire directionality.

Main thread.

https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=cables&n=12417&highlight=solid+core+wire+is+directional&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fforum%3Dset%26searchtext%3Daudio%2Bmirror

rcrump’s post.

https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=cables&n=12428&highlight=solid+core+wire+is+directional&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fforum%3Dset%26searchtext%3Daudio%2Bmirror

Jim