Hifimaniac,
I'm glad to hear you're enjoying your PHTs. I like to have some audio fun. I have no connection whatsoever to any audio company except as a customer. |
Cal3713 and Geoffkait,
Albert Einstein said, "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." I agree with him. |
Ebm,
Are you referring to a specific product? |
Hifimaniac,
Do you still have your Synergistic Research Powercell 10SE power conditioner? |
Jon2020,
I sold off all my SR gear a long time ago. I am not ventilating. I am just trying to have some audio fun. Did you miss the humor? a blacker shade of black -- harkening back to Los Bravos' Black is Black and Procol Harum's A Whiter Shade of Pale -- name poaching -- souped up Schumanns -- everything is a transducer nowadays -- the good old days when SR superlatives were in their infancy -- new game-changers will follow on the heels of old game-changers.
I love the 2 Peters in their YouTube with Peter B. staring at the camera, his head bobbing up and down like the doggy thing on your dashboard. I mean ya gotta laugh at that HFT for Dummies video with the 2 Peters teaching arithmetic, counting out their HFTs one by one while staring into the camera. This is as good as stand-up comedy except, in this case, they both have a straight face.
Responses need not be so serious. Let's lighten up here and enjoy the humor of cable companies doing their thing. |
Hifimaniac,
You stated, "Whatever Ted Denny is doing works and while it may not make sense scientifically, it does in listening tests."
I think it is clear that SR is heading more in the direction of room treatments because their room treatments have more of a positive impact than their cables do. And the profit margin is much more favorable with room treatments. $60 for an HFT pimple -- imagine how much they cost to produce. My own DIY HFTs cost about a buck a piece to make.
SR cables are mid-performance cables, IMO. They are not the best bang for your hard-earned cable buck. I think Shunyata make far better performing cables at a fraction of the price of SR cables. But that's only for my ears in my system. YMMV. |
Jmcgrogan2,
It is unfortunate that so many posters are so serious here. A few have appreciated the humor in my OP -- but some seem to prefer to live in the past, digging into the Audiogon Archives to try to discredit the messenger rather than appreciate the humor of the OP. As we know, this sort of thing is very typical of the way some OPs are handled by some seasoned posters on the Forum -- sling a little mud and try to sully the thread and get the original poster to give up and disappear. Fortunately, I am too old to care about what others think about me or what I write. Anyway, each to his own -- Different Strokes for Different Folks -- as the song goes. I actually saw Sly and the Familty Stone back in the 60s. They were great! |
Hifimaniac,
You stated, "If audiophiles would try some of his room treatments they might avoid the upgrade urge and mistake." I agree. Actually, I still have the SR ART system in my room and I like it very much. It is part of my extensive room treatments that you can view with my system. SR's room treatments are being well received by many audiophiles lately. Their cables less so these days. They don't make the Big Splash that they used to. I think the reason is obvious. |
Hifimaniac,
I used to have the Powercell SE. There are much better power conditioners out there these days. I have the Shunyata Triton now -- a great unit. Have you considered upgrading? |
Ebm,
Thanks for the tip about Stealth. I have never heard them. I will look these up. |
Mapman,
Sorry -- I don't agree that all cable companies are evil. I think that some have inferior products they will do anything to flog. Some are less scrupulous than others when it comes to business ethics. |
Onhwy61,
When I queried Audiogon about the thread being taken down it turns out there is a new person working there and they got things mixed up. So, this was not my doing -- nothing nefarious happening here. Just an honest Audiogon mistake. |
Brauser,
Your comments about John Dunlavy are interesting. I have never heard about this before. But I mentioned somewhere in an old thread that if you did double blind A/B testing with different cable manufacturers in the room I don't think many makers would be able to single out there own cables. This is an interesting thought because if makers don't know their own cables what are the rest of us to make of them? |
Brauser,
This is really interesting information. I will have to look up Dunlavy. His findings mirror my own feelings and, I imagine, the feelings of many others. Having heard a lot of cables in my system from different makers I agree that most are trade-offs -- if not trade-downs. I also believe that room acoustics are the most important area for improvement once your system is at a certain level. Witness the 30 to 40 room treatments in my system. This is an incremental process. At each stage the sound improves to some degree, depending on the element that is added and its placement. Placement is crucial when you have so many room treatments. Making them work well together is a real challenge -- and a lot of fun, as well. It sounds like Dunlavy is right up my alley. |
Chrisr,
I think you're right. The differences will be slight if the construction is similar. Differences heard may be most affected by the conductors, gauge and connectors. |
Jwpstayman,
The SR program is called an uptrade program. As I pointed out in another thread a long time ago, if you continually run on the SR treadmill and continue to trade up you end up with nothing and SR ends up with everything. Just do the math. This is a great marketing illusion -- and one of the most profitable ideas SR has ever come up with, IMO. It relies on the susceptible to get on board. And I imagine they do. I did a long time ago until I finally realized that I was losing out on better valued cables from other companies -- and losing a lot of money staying on the treadmill. |
Jmcgrogan2,
IMO, some of us need to lighten up and take comments as they come -- and enjoy the humor. "Transgressors" do not have to be met with the "audio guillotine" falling each time someone steps over an imaginary line. Let's keep things friendly and enjoy the ride, shall we? |
Jwpstayman.
I found the Forum post I was referring to earlier. Here is an excerpt from my 2012 post that refers to SR's uptrade program requiring you to purchase SR products double the value of the SR product you want to trade back for 70% credit.
"So, for instance, if you want to purchase the latest version of the PowerCell [value $5000 in 2012], you have to purchase $10,000 in SR products to take advantage of the SR trade-up program. Well, that's a lot of money for many of us. And what if the PowerCell is the only product you wish to purchase? You are left with having to sell your PowerCell off on the glutted aftermarket where the price of PowerCells has dropped drastically.
You are lucky to get much more than $2000 for a used PowerCell these days on Audiogon. But you are better off in the end because if you do get $2500 for your PowerCell you have to come up with $2500 for the new PowerCell instead of $6500 with SR. In the end, unless you are really hot on a new SR product besides the PowerCell, you are much better off not going the trade-up route. It is no gift to customers of modest means."
The SR uptrade program is a trap for the unsuspecting, IMO. Just do the math. |
Jmcgrogan2,
Some may appreciate the humor, others may not. It's like food, music and women -- a matter of taste. No problem. Each to his own. But no need to get upset. This is not the Audio Grand Jury. It's just a Forum. If you lighten up you may be able to enjoy the ride.
Geoffkait,
You make some good points. Food for a lot of thought. |
Jmcgrogan2,
I wonder why you keep coming back to a thread that you say you do not like to read. |
Knghifi,
How awful -- humor at a company's expense -- or at an industry's expense -- heaven forbid. From the point of view of cable companies, everything is at the customer's expense. So why not turn the tables with a bit of humor and look at things from a different perspective. Is this really about my true colors? Or about the true colors of cables companies? I think we have seen this kind of tactic before on the Forum -- trying to distract from the OP by shining the spotlight on the original poster. |
Cal3713,
Kindly explain what you mean here. |
Raks,
You hit the nail on the head -- the bang for the buck. Many cable makers get away with audio murder -- inferior cables at superior prices. There is another thread at the moment that highlights this very thing with a cable maker -- not Synergistic Research, by the way. I don't want to pour oil on the fire so please look this up if you are interested. |
Geoffkait,
Humorous speculation. |
Geoffkait,
You're forgiven in light of the fact this appears to be a genetic condition. |
Colekat,
I could not have said it better than when you stated, "if you get hooked into the big boys game, your gonna throw money money at ghosts. I mean what happens with thier [sic] prior offerings, suddenly they suck!" |
Colekat,
You make a valid point when you state "rarely has the new offering sounded any different then the prior series". I have stated earlier on the Forum, and I believe this to be true, that if cable makers were brought into a room and various cables were swapped in a double blind test, few would be able to identify their own cables. There is not only very little distinction between the various versions that each maker brings to market, there is very little distinction between the cables of one maker and another. The exception is the very best cables from the best cable makers.
I will not name names here because some makers feel so threatened and become so defensive about this that they go nuts and jump all over me whenever I talk this kind of sense on the forum about their cables and the price/performance ratio. Since most lack the courage to face these points straight on they have employed various tactics. "Kill the messenger" is their favorite ploy -- attacking me personally and my work. Anything to draw attention away from the subject at hand. Any diversionary tactic goes. They have even gone to such extreme lengths as to send me veiled threats by email and to elicit the support of sympathetic proxies to try to shoot me down. These are the actions of "the cornered desperado". |
Jmcgrogan2,
I'm not mad at SR at all. I am having some fun with this. Did you miss the humor? -- a blacker shade of black, harkening back to Procol Harum's A Whiter Shade of Pale? I saw Procol Harum live in 1968 -- simply great. I use SR as an example. They are so easy to have fun with since their marketing is so transparent, excuse the audio pun. But, as you rightly point out, they are no different from so many other cable makers.
Jon2020,
That's 5 years ago -- that 5 lifetimes in Audioland. "Something must have happened"? 5 lifetimes of "something" have happened to my system since then. I imagine most everyone who is as active as I am developing their system would be able to say the something similar. After all, that's what we are here for on Audiogon, to develop our systems and to share what we are doing with others. |
Mofimadness,
The OP was about having some fun with cable companies and how they market their products. It seems like you want to change that into a new OP called "Sabai's Love-Hate Relationship with Cable Companies". LOL.
I have gone through a lot more cable companies than that. Depending on the level of my system at the time, they may sound good for a while. Until another element in the system changes and then the cabling needs to go to a higher level, as well. This is easy to understand.
Cable god? I am flattered. I'm sorry to disappoint you but I cannot claim such a lofty position. I only have my own system and my own experience to fall back on. There's a ton of components and cables I have never heard. So, with all due respect, elevating me to the mountain top is clearly inappropriate.
And, with all due respect, I am not looking for "credibility". I have nothing to sell. And frankly, at my age, I really am not concerned about what others say or think about me. I am looking to have a bit of fun with cable companies and their marketing. That's all. With all due respect, if this does not suit your fancy no one is forcing you to participate.
I am surprised that so many posters are taking this discussion so seriously -- like they owned stock in the company. Sabai said such-and-such in 2012 and such-and-such in 2010 about such-and-such a cable company. I mean it is flattering that people either have such a long memory or are going to the trouble to look this up. Am I such an important fellow here? Not in my opinion. It would be great if some folks would lighten up and enjoy a few laughs. Life is too short. IMO. |
Ozzy,
You stated, "... I found many other cables for far less money that provided much more audio enjoyment." I believe many people feel as you do. I was upgrading SR cables for quite a while then gave up when I discovered other cables delivered much better sound at a much better price. It's as simple as that. I believe SR may still have their uptrade policy but that is like going to the casino. The house eventually wins. I pointed out a long time ago on another thread that if you continually uptrade with SR you end up with zero and they end up with it all. But they make it sound attractive to lure those who are susceptible. As you rightly point out, they alienate their customer base and end up encouraging people to look elsewhere. I do give them credit for innovation in the area of room treatments. I think this is their strongest card at the moment.
Thanks for the useful information about the DIY HFTs. I like what mine do in my system. I live overseas and was never able to source the right sized cap on Ebay. They always ended up sending caps that were too wide. So, I have a modified version using the best sized cap I could get hold of and that works well. |
brauser,
Regarding Dunlavy, you stated, " ... In fact, most listeners couldn't even tell their own cable from anyone else's cable in the test group." With all the new cables being brought out by various manufacturers these past few years, this still does not surprise me. I think it is very interesting that not a single cable maker has even tried to refute Dunlavy's cable tests. This speaks to the nature of the cable business, in my opinion. Not that there are not some excellent cables out there. There are. It is just that most are not even worth mentioning, let alone trying to differentiate from others. In spite of the hoopla that cables makers surround their cables with, it's the same old cable game out there today. |
