How do you determine how much to spend on speakers

Here's a basic breakdown:

$400 for a Tuner. You NEED a tuner whether you think so or not. You WILL use it a lot more than you think you would. Look for a Magnum Dynalabs 101. These can be found for $3-400 if you look around. These are both sensitive and sound pretty good. Some cheaper yet worthy alternatives are the Musical Fidelity E-50, Sony 730 ES, Yamaha TX-950, etc... These can be found for $150 - $250 and will free up money for other things that you may consider more important. The MF is not as sensitive as the others but sounds warmer.

$500 for a DAC. I would suggest an EVS Millenium 1A if you can find one. These typically run about $4-500 used. These are 24/96 capable and sound far more musical than most SS pieces and is more accurate than the majority of tube units on the market. The best of both worlds for pennies on the dollar.

$5-600 for a Transport. You be the judge. If you want to play / watch DVD's also, then factor this into the equation. Personally, i would NOT use a DVD player as a transport except if you REALLY want "double duty" and are willing to sacrifice musicality. This statement includes units modified by "professional tweakers". I would suggest something along the lines of either a Parasound CBD-2000, CEC 5100, Theta Pearl, Theta Data Basic II, Rega Jupiter, etc... You could also resort to using a cd player as the transport only i.e. a Parasound CDP-2000, Pioneer Elite PD-65, Rega Planet, etc...

If you want to stick to a one box player, combine the prices of the DAC and Transport plus the additional amount that a digital cable would've cost you. A possible alternative is to pick up a Sony SACD player from Oade Brothers and have Ric from EVS modify it for you. This would put you in the same price range, reduce jitter and take up one rack space instead of two. It would also offer the benefit of being SACD capable should that format ever really take off.

$1250 for "backbone" components i.e. a preamp and amp or integrated amp. TONS of good used stuff on the market. Keep in mind that you can also consider a passive line section since you will be using only line level sources. While i prefer the versatility of seperates, you might prefer the "less clutter is better" approach and opt for an integrated. Another factor is SS vs Tube. A lot of personal choices to be made here.

$1250 for speakers. Since the tonal balance of the system will be dictated by your speaker & amplification choices, you would be wise to consider these two factors hand in hand. You also want to make sure that you have more than enough REAL power to meet your listening demands for the specific speakers that you choose. You also need to factor in the types of music that you primarily listen to, the volume levels required and the size of the room. Obviously, large speakers work better in larger rooms and smaller speakers in smaller rooms. Don't fool yourself either way.

$1000 for "incidentals". This includes a rack ($225), speaker cables ($225), interconnects ($225) and a PLC ($200 ). This leaves you with some money to put towards supplies to build some very simple yet highly effective DIY room treatments. For that info, see http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/index.htm
While you're there, i would look at some of his cable designs also. A couple of hundred dollars on DIY cables will go WAY, WAY further than spending the same amount retail.

You'll have ended up spending about the same amount of money for your major components ( CD, preamp/amp, speakers ). This approach takes into consideration that the system is only as strong as its' weakest link so try to use a bunch of links that are "equal". On top of that, you'll also have something that looks decent ( neat and orderly on a real audio rack ) without overlooking the importance that "accessories" like good quality cables and room treatment play in achieving good sound. Of course, you can fudge an amount in one category for another to suit your specific goals and desires. Hope this helps and gives you a basic idea of how to construct a balanced system. Sean
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Whatjd, thanks for summing things up in a smooth and flowing manner. You said what i wanted to say... Sean
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A well balanced system is one that never strays too far from neutral, all the components work together as a team, the overall presentation is pleasant and there are minimal conflicts or weak spots that draw attention to themselves.

All of this is done without an individual stand out player, as it would no longer be well balanced or a team effort if that were the case. If one piece were to stand out, the system would no longer be well balanced. It would have a noticeable high point with the equivalent low or lower points.

To use a comparison, system building and body building are not that different. Sinking all of your money / effort into one specific "star player" would be equivalent to exercising one's legs with minimal attention paid to the rest of the body or system. While the legs could easily support the weight of the entire body and do a lot of work, the rest of the body would not be up to performing at the same level when called upon to do so. The end result is that the body would run out of "air" and "energy" while quickly becoming "fatigued". Nor would the highly specialized "star player" legs be able to complete all of the tasks that a well rounded performer would be capable of.

With "star quality" speakers and the associated price tag, your audio system would do the same thing. The speakers would reveal the shortcomings of the signal source and amplification devices feeding them. Kind of like having someone that is far superior in every aspect pointing out all of your weak spots everytime that they see you. Again and again, over and over. While the flaws might be pointed out very fairly and honestly, this would not be much fun nor would it be enjoyable.

From the other point of view, each improvement that you did make might be duly noted, but you would have to make a LOT of improvements EVERYWHERE in order to achieve a level playing surface.

Logic dictates that it would be more intelligent to work every aspect of the body / system equally, making for a well rounded approach. This would provide performance that wasn't seriously lacking in any specific department nor leave you feeling "underwhelmed". While it may not have any specific "stellar" attributes, you could call upon any part of the body / system and feel confident that it would not let you down nor stand out so much that it became irritating.

Keep in mind that when you get TOO much of a good thing, you loose a sense of "balance" and it becomes less palatable with each exposure. The longer you stress the other areas of the system that weren't properly exercised or paid attention to, the more revealing the problem would become.

The bottom line is that my thoughts are: why "x-ray" cheaper / inferior components with high grade speakers when you can achieve something that is much more balanced / well rounded for the same price ? While some would say that this leads to a system of mediocrity, we all have to settle for that at various levels. That is, unless you have taken the "all out assault / never ending funds" approach to system building.

Just my $.02, if it's worth that. Obviously, some will and have disagreed. That's what makes the audio world go round. Sean
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Clueless, your comment "Some folks have suggested spending as little as $1,500 on speakers and IMHO that is sonic suicide" kicked me "square in the nuts" ( pardon my French ). This is especially true since i suggested appr $1250 on speakers !!!! I did not take offense to this, as we are all simply sharing opinions.

For the sake of clarity, i based all of my prices on used items. With the wealth of ultra high quality used items that are available at bargain basement prices, doing anything else almost seems senseless. This is especially true if you just starting out, as you will no doubt end up "upgrading" sometime down the road. It is better to get 80% - 100% of your investment in used equipment back than to get a 40% - 60% return on new gear when you decide to sell it. Even if the new gear comes with a "warranty", throwing money away every time you "upgrade" gets old REAL fast. However, i will agree that buying used speakers are the "if-iest" and most difficult proposition when it comes to purchasing used hi-fi.

For the record, i have less than $500 total in my favorite set of speakers. This includes repairs, upgrades and modifications. If it came down to it, i would sell all of my other speakers ( about a dozen pairs ) and keep these. These are older models and used to sell for about $5K when they stopped production. Needless to say, there are TONS of bargains out there if you know what to look for and where to look. Another option is to simply be patient and wait for a good deal to come along. Sometimes, this works out even better in the long run. Sean
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Dr Diamond: Regardless of how Dave Wilson was able to "beat" the mega-dollar system, the fact that he did so says a lot about what one can do with a little bit of money and a lot of know-how when it comes to electronics. I've been trying to stress much the same point here for years. Sean
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