i have personally auditioned over 10 different manufacturer's line cords. i hear differences. i don;'t understand how a line cord can affect treble response or bass response.
**I could simple squirt Spray and Wash on my speaker cones**
You'd better read the label first. If I'm not mistaken Spray and Wash only works on planars. Try Ortho-Cone and let us know. It is available in 4, 8, and 16 ohm solutions.
Have you tried a "swifter" - IMHO it works better than spray and wash - the ionic charge picks up all unwanted vibrations....just remember to place them on your head while listening and change the pad every hour. Chepaest acpustic treatment on the market....and a well kept secret.
Wonder why my 0.02 about inexpensive cable solutions got squashed by the MODERATORS?
as an alternative to 1000.00 / meter PC I could simple squirt Spray and Wash on my speaker cones to provide the audio windex to the same degree the silly overpriced electron wielding garden hose of the month (pc) does.
Once again this thread proves that AudioPhiles typically have more dollars than sense.
**do you know if Ortho "Bug-Geta" Snail Bait will work on the AC worm?**
This is undoubtedly the most meaningful thought you've posted. The answer is, I'm not sure. The first thing I did was spray the entire power delivery components with Round Up. Then I installed a wind powered generator and converted everything to DC. My electrons were not up to the challenge of changing direction 60 times every second so I made it easier for them; nothing to think about just look straight ahead. Now they all move in the same direction, at the same time, in lock step. Lastly I made the switch to dedicated DC lines and DC power cords.
**I forgot to check my headlight fluid the last time I put water in my tires.**
You're poking fun at a very serious situation here. Recently an AC worm infiltrated my power conditioner rendering it useless. Before I became aware of that rascal, it had also infected my power cords totally disabling them. The copper and gold conductors had turned to lead. I'd advise all readers to install a firewall on your power conditioner and dutifully monitor your electron speed. Forewarned is forearmed folks.
>>". . . restricted or unrestricted flow of electrons."<<
***What does this mean, and how is it measured?***
You'll need an electronvelocitormeter. Available at better auto parts stores, it will also enable you to adjust the proper level of headlight fluid in your car.
Eldartford, My stuff is made for battery power, and there are capacitors in the power supply, and I do keep my wires short to try to minimize the inductance issue too.
To answer your question, I have not noticed any change or difference if the sunlight on the solar panels changes. However, I mostly do my listening in the evening when there is no sunlight, so I don't know for certain if there might be any audible changes resulting from the varying voltage coming from the solar panels into the batteries.
In the case of my turntable, the way the battery power supply works is by actuating a relay that disconnects the charging ciruit when the TT is running. This is because the TT battery option is designed for normal homes using AC power. But I can also use it in my application.
Just to get another opinion here, what do you think might be the effects of different component's power supplies modulating the power lines(and therefore the other component's power supplies), and possibly causing some noticeable effect, especially high-power amplifiers that suck alot of juice? I admit that I am only going on a hypothetical idea with that. But I thought it couldn't hurt to keep all the power supplies independent of each other. Do you think this may be something that could use a closer look in our home audio systems?
The AC cable does not change the frequency response but rather allows the electronic component to perform more or less efficiently due to the restricted or unrestricted flow of electrons. Try a Radix Cable; the Quiddity will be your benchmark for efficient electron transfer and @$250 it won't break your piggy bank. You can find them at AudibleElegance.com or RadixCables.com for the same price. You will be pleasantly surprised.
Regarding the question how it is possible that a power cord can affect frequency respose: can it be measured that one power cord gives a slightly different frequency response than the other? Even small differences (+/- 0.5 dB) could be heard. If the differences are less than 0.5 dB then you can say that there are no measurable differences between power cords and that that sonic differences between power cords (if there are any) should not be heard.
Twl...Have you ever determined the noise level and output impedance of your battery? It ain't zero! However, if the 12vdc feeds a capacitor, as with a normal power supply, you won't have a problem.
In accordance with Shadorne's observations about coal-fired power plants, have you noticed any difference in your sound depending on whether the solar panels were exposed to bright sunlight or only a dingy overcast?
TWL I want to order one of those negetive feedback powercords. I don't care how it measures, or sounds, and I'll give you $1500 cash for it! I can't wait to tell people I have one!
Shadorne, I've been using solar power to re-charge my battery operated system for years.
Just for a little aside to the discussion here, I don't use "audiophile" AC power cords. My system is battery operated on DC power.
And I use a separate 12vdc lead-acid type battery and very short cabling for each individual component. There is no interaction between the power supplies of my components, except for whatever interaction occurs between the components themselves via the interconnects. My amp power draw has no effect on the power supply to my preamp, or to my turntable, and vice-versa. Also, high-voltage electromagnetic fields associated with the AC power supplies is virtually eliminated.
I find this works very well for me, but may not be suitable for others, especially those with high power audio systems.
Your river analogy is very good but what happens upstream of the audio component is all very criticial. As per Ridgestreet, there is a coloration on all the rest of the chain from the foundation up; the power supply gets modulated by all other circuitry.
I used to live in an area where my electricity came from a coal fired power station; the sound was smoggy and lacked clarity. Since moving to an area with gas fired electricity the improvements are astounding....crystal clear clean sound!
If any of you have heard exotic Power Cords that made a big difference just consider what enormous improvement can be attained from having your electricity generation come from clean gas or hydroelectric rather than dirty coal! One day I intend to hook up solar panels to power my gear for that last extra step to audio nirvanna!
That was hilarious Guidocorona. Perhaps it's best to split this thread now into two distinct subjects:
1) the line cord frequency thingy 2) proposed new branch: "How a technical discussion affects the mental status of Audiogon members" included we have a cast of mechanical froggies, psychologists, lawyers, philosophers, fisherman, and the impatient
If you are looking for good natured humor choose path 2. If, however, you don't mind technical details and perhaps dry humor choose 1.
. . . and now blazingly-fast pop-psychologist--MRT volunteers unrequested mental health referral services at no-extra-charge to TVAD. Most magnanimous indeed for a Renaissance man of so exalted a stature! Oddly enough, after the awesomely creative diagnosis of choleric distemper, he is not offering unflappable TVAD his own services for a more regular cycle of counselling sessions. Or is he perhaps not confident in his own therapeutic prowers?
Eldartford, I'm glad that you are looking at ways that could advance what we know about testing audio products, and making those tests as relevant as possible to the real-world operating conditions of the products.
I feel that doing those kinds of tests, and even coming up with newer test protocols to accomplish this would get us further toward the truth about what we test and hear.
While I've been accused by others(not you) of being "unscientific", I actually have no beef with science. I only want the tests to be as accurate as possible in determining the outcome, so that we can ensure as far as possible that no incorrect conclusions are drawn from the tests, as has happened in the past.
My aims are to reveal as much truth as possible, and not obscure it.
Dpac996, I was joking about the "negative feedback power cord", because of the past history of what happened in measurements to product that end in audio amplifiers during the 70's and 80's.
I'm actually pleased that you are interested in doing things to help us understand what we want to know.
I only qualify that with the hope that the tests are done in such a way as to ensure that past mistakes are not repeated.
hi tvad, am i going to have the last word about my background. it is obvious that i am not a member of the legal profession. i have said so many times. the phrase was used in conotation not to meann, literally that i am a lawyer.
i detect a lot of hostility and you may need to develop anger management skills.
considering the subjects discussed, the relative unimportance of the subject and the banter that has been exchanged to date, i think you need help.
would you like me to provide the name of therapist ?
Twl...Most of the parameters which are spec'd for audio equipment are good for verifying that the circuit is working properly, but relate only imperfectly to sonic quality. However, there are tests that one can perform which I think would satisfy your objection. One such test is to observe (by oscilloscope or by listening to it) the difference between a signal waveform going into the device and what comes out, adjusted for gain of course. This signal can be any waveform, music if you like, although other waveforms like a square wave may present more of a challenge. Note that I did not say to measure the difference, because quite disparate waveforms may have similar measurements.
For another example, if you drive two identical power amps with the same signal you should (ideally) see nothing when you measure across the two hot output terminals. Note that this can be done with real music and driving real speakers. Now put an aftermarket PC on one of the amps. If the measurement is still zero (or the same tiny number) it is safe to say that the PC did nothing. If there is a difference you could make a recording of it and play it back so you could listen to it, and form some opinion of the sonic effect of the PC.
TWL: What is a negative feedback power cord? I also stated that music as well as test tones, perhaps used only to calibrate the measurement technique, be used.
The "dummy load" was not a dummy load across the output of the amp. It was in series with the Hot line of the outlet, for example. I suggested this. Someone else mentioned using an inductive pickup, and while that may work fine on unshielded cables, the majority of high-dollar aftermarket PCs employ HEAVY shielding. Therefore the inductive "kick" will be attenuated if not totally reduced to noise.
If one were to pull the outlet junction box out of the wall and expose the romex, which is most likely unshielded, then the pickup can be placed appropriately.
Please note, any of this is potentially dangerous and should not be attempted by any individuals not qualified to do so.
Please, I would implore any people seeking to measure the performance of anything "audio", to at least measure it in the context in which it is used, so that we don't have the mess that occured in the past.
I noticed that a very well-meaning poster above sought to use a steady sine-wave test tone and a load resistor in his testing. Is this not what got us into this mess the first time? Doubtless, negative-feedback-equipped power cords will result!
If someone is "hell-bent" on having some numbers to "lean on", then please try to procure them in a way that is meaningful to the way the product is operated when it is in its intended use. The idea(as I see it) is to find out something useful, and not to "make it easier" for the measurer.
Personally, I think that something may come of this, and I would love to see some new measuring protocols introduced that could address this common topic of why we don't seem to be able to measure the observations that we are obviously hearing.
You can't do this "in a vacuum". It needs to be done so that it measures the things you want to find out when the product is operating in the listening environment, playing real music. "In-situ", as it were. Test tones and "dummy loads" are out of the question. It is what happens in the actual reactive environment that we need to know, and test.
Data is data(...)Whether the specs in the data correlate to improvement in sound is open to subjective interpretation.
I'd agree in principle with what follows -- BUT data and their correlation would be "objective". You probably mean that, first, we formulate a theory of what data indicate audible differences and, then we set about to confirm that theory (i.e. "objectivise" the subjective)...
Very commonplace info can be *indicative* of sound -- for example, yr VAC uses a linear amplification device (tube) whereas the Technics uses a switching amplification device... and the circuits are different of course as are the equivalent circuits of the system as a whole with one or the other component; also the design objectives (the engineering compromises made, if you will) in one case & the other are different.
For example, I (and probably others) would *expect* better sonic performance fm the VAC -- and poorer value for money
Just to repeat the obvious about "data"/"specs": it often depends on what one measures (and measures for). Cheers
Dpak996: Triggering on both, but not at the same time! For the line cord waveforms, I'll trigger on the line. For waveforms on the filter, I'll have to trigger on the ripple, as the music signal will, or at least should, be very small in comparison. But, I can trigger on that just to see what might come up.
I am hoping to have time to check this out tomorrow night, as I should have some lab time available.
Tvad: I wasn't asking for proprietary secrets. I was asking for some data indicating their cables improvement. For example, you bought a power amplifier for your stereo, certainly you asked it was tube, solid state, what power it has, signal to noise ratio, current capacity, perhaps you even talked to the manufacturer about their philosophy in design. All of this provides good data and information, yet is not proprietary.
A seasoned 64-year-old trained economist, mathematician, psychologist. . . a practicing software engineer and author. . . an aspiring and inspiring barrister. . . and yet all of these whilst lowering himself so to impart onto us struggling simple souls the high wisdom of logic, rhetoric, Latin, etiquette, engineering, and the true audio-truth to boot!
What can I say. . . I's in awe. . . I's just about speechless!
First off, please understand that I'm not attacking you personally.
I did take a quick peek at those sites, but my initial response was that, AGAIN, they were from two companies marketing audio cables, thus the biased marketing claims. Just like with any other market of interest, an intelegent buyer should extract as much info from several sources. As with buying a new car, each manufacturer will hype their best features over the competition. It's the buyer's responsibility to weed out the nonsense, right? You pick the market, and the same behavior applies between the manufacturer and buyer.
I WILL agree to go back and read more of their technical info, but admittingly, I've read similar stuff to death. I'll be fair!
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