If horns hit my spot and I had your budget I’d get some Klipsch La Scala and look into a couple of real nice subs for them. Horn subs if possible.
My thoughts exactly. For a perhaps more rounded/coherent and even more effortless presentation (through the midrange), albeit at extra outlay, I’d consider the "homage builds" in the form of Simon Mears Audio Uccello’s (I own them myself), which have the now discontinued Klipsch Belles as an inspiration, and Volti Audio’s Vittora that’re based on the La Scala. All of them all-horn speakers with 104-105dB sensitivity and coherent, effortless, naturally warm and very dynamic sonics. To wring out the best in these I’d strongly advice going for a pair of horn subs, or some variant in this ballpark with high(er) sensitivity. Myself I use a pair of 15"-loaded MicroWrecker Tapped Horns (tuned somewhere between 22-24Hz), and they blend in seamlessly with my Uccello’s crossed at 80Hz (I'm high-passing my mains here with a quality digital XO). A classic Front Loaded Horn would also work great, as I’m sure would a pair of 6th order bandpass iterations like Josh Ricci’s Skrams (fitted with a monstrous neodymium magnet 21" driver). For a quad-sub solution I’d also recommend lilmike’s 10"-loaded PicoWrecker tapped horn subs. The Skrams aren’t horn-loaded as such (well, slightly on the front side of the driver), but with their hidden drivers they should be a successful match to named main speakers nonetheless. For many if not most audiophiles above recommended TH’s/FLH’s/other 6th order BP’s would seem like madness in a domestic environment, but believe it or not this is all about integration, overall SQ and taking advantage of the full performance envelope with an all-horn(-ish) approach. With the exception of the PW subs they all take up some 18-20 cubic feet per cabinet, by no means shoe boxes, but this is simply dictated physics and a none-compromise (or a lesser compromise at that) approach. The rationale for above recommendation(s) is perhaps all but obvious by now; horns as all-horns are rare, certainly from 20-25Hz on up, but they’re the potential ticket to what really set horns apart with their particular virtues, and one that is rarely experienced throughout the hifi milieu. This is about uninhibited presence and dynamics, and a relaxed, coherent and effortless presentation, and I believe named alternatives and combinations will able to provide just that. |
@willgolf -- Has anyone from around the world heard the Horn Universum 3 way that are made in Poland? There are none in North America.
I've heard a previous iteration of the hORNS Universum (and once owned the smaller sibling model, the Mummy), and the midrange in particular was wonderful. The large JMLC mids horn presented this frequency range quite unlike anything I'd really heard before - in a positive way. Second question, audio stores are telling me you need to use tube amps with Horns. Do you agree?
I disagree, but I'd urge you to audition a variety of both SS- and tube-based amps with the Universum's, and then make your assessments in the wake of this. You may end up agreeing with the audio stores you have conversed with in regards to their advice on the pairing with tube amps (or you may not), but most importantly you'd have formed your own opinion to either agree or disagree with them. I know Lukasz Lewandowski of hORNS prefers tube amps in general, but regardless seek your own experience here. |
@acresverde -- OP should realize that he is definitely going to have to settle for a hybrid horn speaker in his price range. A full range horn by the very nature of its size and price is not likely doable for him. Also, some of the brands thrown around in this thread like Cessaro are going to be non starters as well due to price.
Size may be a problem, but with a price range up to $40,000 a truly capable all-horn setup is absolutely within reach. Remember, all-horn items from Cessaro and the likes are steeply priced, and oftentimes all-horn speakers represent a manufacturer’s statement products, for no other reason really than keeping them out of hand from any but the most well-paid. There are all-horn main speakers like Volti Audio’s Vittora’s (around ~$20k sans Gregs DR subs) or Simon Mears Audio Uccello’s (£10,500 direct sale from Simon, but being a busy man at present sadly doesn’t take orders), and couple either of those with the likes of a pair of Danley Sound Labs tapped horn TH-50 (unaware of their price, but with named main speakers would come in under $40k), or the front loaded horns like JTR Orbit Shifter LFU (independently tested here: https://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=123): https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/subwoofers/tapped-horns/th50/http://www.jtrspeakers.com/orbit-shifter-lfu.htmlThese are all pre-build solutions (though you would need amp + digital XO for the TH-50, but they would still fall within the price ceiling), but don’t mistake the horn subs mentioned for being blow-your-roof-off capable only; they offer excellent bass quality all around, and will provide effortless performance for any purpose and at SPL's few would be able to endure (not meant as a quality in itself, but that it grants you effortless presentation at any SPL). In combination with all-horn speakers like the ones mentioned you’d be in for something sonically quite special. Then there’re DIY horn sub solutions that I mentioned earlier in this thread, and couple those with DIY all-horn main speakers from John Inlow and you’d come in under $10k for the whole shebang. |
@facten -- (" once owned the smaller sibling model, the Mummy ")
Can you provide some insights about the Mummy’s sound ,etc and what you drove them with? Sorry for the late reply. I drove the Mummy’s with my current gear, a Belles SA-30 class-A poweramp and SOtM sDP-1000 DAC/preamp (and a PC-based source with an Audiophilleo 2 + PurePower USB-S/PDIF converter + JRiver MC25 DLNA and NAS drive), and before that also a NuForce poweramp and DAC. The Mummy’s were rather coherent sounding and versatile speakers. I really liked the OSWG waveguide fitted with the BMS 4524 compression driver and what it did from some 1,6-1,8kHz on up (an impressive feat by the 12" Beyma 12BR70 to go this high in the decent manner it did). Apart from slight material resonance/signature some of the least horn-sounding variants I’ve heard, with a rather "mild" imprinting. In its specific MkIII implementation a bit tipped-up in the top end, slightly recessed central mids, and a relatively dynamic midbass though fattening up a bit towards the port tune. Nice, sphere-like soundstage. I preferred blocking one of the two ports in each speaker. |
(by @johnk ) The best horn systems are not the ones you find at audio dealers research horns consider a bit of DIY combinations of the best of vintage and modern are the best performing options.
I find there’s merit to this statement. The industry of all this "hifi" is not our affair or business even; we’re the picky consumers (or ought to be), and the industry provides us with the products we deem worthwhile - an important, albeit banal distinction. Still there’s the sense the consumer is sometimes offended on the part of the industry when the latter is deselected by individuals (in favor of DIY offerings, wholly or partly, or specialty/boutique craftsmen) or critical assessment is otherwise placed as if the consumer has somehow gotten infested with the inertia of the hifi industry at large as the steady, and convenient provider. Perhaps modernity is part of this tendency in light of the thinking that holds what’s new is necessarily better, while at the same time being instrumental in keeping the wheels of said industry turning in ever-ongoing consumerism. Mixing old and new, making it a partial DIY-approach (furthering a lack of convenience), potentially very large speakers - all-horns at that as a minority principle, and at prices that may easily break the rule of "you get what you pay for" (or certainly prices that are far removed from the typical high-end realm) - all of which stirs the pot in ways I’m sure to make many an audiophile feel uncomfortable or strangely alienated, for a variety of reasons. Above quote I find expresses a freedom of approach that goes contrary to many a coagulated way in much of hifi; how do we attain some of the *best* sound out there going with horn speakers, size and most everything else be damned. I wouldn’t consider Klipsch unless entry-level. Avantgarde is also entry-level horn with crazy prices.
Above quote I believe should be seen in the context of its addressor, not to make it all-relative, and the aspiration sought. Entry-level to one may be perfectly suitable for others, and yet isn’t it a provoking or intriguing thought that what we deem close to sonic excellence may dwarf next to offerings of another kind, not necessarily at elevated price levels yet at the expense, in a sense, of much bigger size. The Shearer horn designs are pretty much the best horns get but they are not small small horns are wrong horns.
Would love to get my hands on a pair those Shearer’s in some iteration - we’ll see how that turns out in the future. You want a fully horn-loaded system any ported box is a compromise not really worth having if performance is the true goal.
Incorporating all-horns in a domestic environment may be more about a change in mentality (and priority in regards to interior decoration) than whether it’s really sonically feasible. In that light certainly my recommendation would also be to strive for all-horns to really get to know what horns qua all-horns according to their true definition are capable of. That being said I find there are modern hybrid offerings that perform very well in distancing themselves from all-direct radiating solutions in terms of dynamics and yet being quite coherent (in some respects even more so), like JBL’s 4367 (I like them in particular) and 4429. The M2’s from JBL are fancied as well, and PBN Audio looks interesting. From what I’ve read Audiokineses speakers are also fine offerings. |
@georgesallit325 -- If anyone is interested I have just finished reviewing the Klipsch La Scala AL5s (the new ones) at: https://hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/134937-klipsch-la-scala-al5/
A UK view. Well-written, and very positive review of the La Scala AL5's, George. Being a UK-based Wigwam scribe, have you by any chance listened to Simon Mears Audio Uccello's? |
@willgolf -- As the OP, how I started on this adventure was because I heard the Avantgarde Uno Fino. I had never heard any horn type speaker before. That prompted my question and the wonderful learning experience from reading everyone’s post. I am embarking on building a modern house. Consequently, a true horn will not fit our decor. That means Klipsch, JBL and any big box vintage looking speakers are out.
So if that means I would not be getting a true horn so be it. At the end of the day if i buy a hybrid horn and I love the sound then I will be totally happy. It’s difficult to assess what you’re really going for here. What’s the restricting factor considering your future speakers - aesthetics more than size per se, re: "fit(ting) our decor"? And what sonic qualities in particular from named Avantgarde speakers was it that you liked and made you want to investigate further? Even horn hybrids can take up space, but not too few of them thrive on being placed rather close to the back wall, thereby taking up limited floor area and "stealing" less into the listening/living room. Certainly this would open up the possibility for a range of speakers size-wise, even including a few all-horn options like the Klipsch La Scala’s (Jubilee’s, perhaps, but a stretch), Volti Audio Vittora’s and Simon Mears Audio Uccello’s, but for reasons not entirely clear you already ruled out Klipsch, so let’s forget about those options. What about Volti Audio’s horn hybrid Rival’s? In this size class (almost) there’s the PBN 2!5’s as well. Classic Audio Loudspeakers have been mentioned, and I can only imagine they sound wonderful, but will they fit the budget at no more than $40k (question aimed at @atmasphere )? They aren’t small either, but the beautiful cabinetry could make up for it and have them pass for furniture, which is so rarely seen with loudspeakers today (with wood that actually looks, feels and even smells like wood and isn’t lacquered to death, although this may be an undesirable physical trait in a more typical, modern home). Duke’s Audiokinesis speakers seem to fit both size and budget, and by all accounts sound very good. Or how about looking into some of Oswalds Mill Audio’s smaller models like the Mini’s and Monitor? They’re expensive, but sport beautiful, old school cabinet work, great pro drivers and supposedly excellent sound quality. I understand the considerations in regards to interior decoration, but if you’re really into sound reproduction let your speakers be a main priority in the allotted space they’re given - with the adherence to form-follows-function as far as it goes, and not vice versa. As it often happens, to my eyes at least, the really interesting physical shape of speakers comes via an uninhibited accordance with their function as dictated by physics. Even a much smaller, typical slender square box speaker can be seen as an outright nuisance in a home setting because it’s just that: a tall, rectangular square box oftentimes finished in a rather sterile manner, and one that’s placed well into the room, at that. |
@willgolf -- The biggest question I have now as I am about to embark on building my new house is, should I add to in wall subwoofers. Even if I don’t use them at least I have them ready. With Horns being so fast, I would need a very good subwoofer. My wife has laid the law down and said they have to be be in wall subs like I have in my current house.
If what you’re about to embark on, at least as an outset, is a horn hybrid solution like the Avantgarde Uno Fino’s, then you’ve already "welcomed" the switch from horn mids/top to direct radiator in the band below in the main speaker, with all that entails sonically. To mitigate any discontinuity that would invariably exist in such a pairing within the mains - you and your wife’s appreciation of them notwithstanding - adding a pair of subs in a proper fashion could improve overall coherency; "proper" being high-passing the mains somewhere between 80-100Hz with a quality digital cross-over to the subs augmenting below, in which way you’d free the direct radiators of the Duo Fino’s from low frequency content - with significant gains to be had in the range above (to better meet with the horns here). With an in-wall subs solution you’re facing some interesting options that should include horns variants or other hidden-driver approach, so that only the mouth area is visible. Now, even though what I’m about to quote and link to is only meant as an inspiration, I wouldn’t recommend your wife read and see the following.. ;) Taken from the opening post of a build thread over at Avsforum: I figured I’d start a new thread instead of mooching off of the other threads with my questions... I have started my build for the two Gjallarhorns designed by Ricci - thanks for sharing the plans Josh! I’m building these for my 2700 cu ft living room that we use for watching movies, listening to music, entertaining, etc. Not really a "true" HT because it’s the main room of our house and there are several different openings to the room, two windows, sliding glass door, vaulted ceiling, fireplace. The goal is to have this room +10 on WAF by looking like a "normal room," but with ninja-stealth, bone crushing sound coming from the shadows.
I chose the G-horn because it’s output of sheer terror down to 15hz, which is as low as I care about, below 15hz doesn’t do anything for me. I like to turn it up to 11, and have a history of destroying my drivers because of my generosity toward the volume knob, but also because this living room is difficult to pressurize. These will be placed in the attic, behind the vaulted ceiling and firing through to the room from the front and rear left side corners. As soon as these are finished and tested, demo on the room begins for our remodel, subs get hoisted up to the attic for placement.
... https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1495785-doug-s-dual-gjallarhorn-build.html |
