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High quality subwoofer - which one?

I’ve owned my C4’s for about six months now, and they are excellent. But, you can’t ask a speaker to things it isn’t big enough to do. What that is, is to go FLAT to 20 Hz. The Vandersteen Quatro’s had built-in 250 watt class B powered subwoofers that are to die for once you hear them. The blemish on the Quatros, and it is a small one, was the slightly veiled lower midrange. The C4’s are absolutely seamless everywhere they go. The lowest bass can be fixed and most would probably say it’s not even necessary...until you hear a real sub system that is. Once you hear the effortlessly smooth low-end of a dedicated sub woofer you just can’t forget about it.

I started looking at subwoofers, and they are expensive, but relative to what this hobby’s cost(s) can be on some item(s), they are affordable. Well, ONE is affordable, anyway. I have three models that seem to all be nice products, and was curious what the feet on the street have used and your likes / dislikes. One model that I have not included needs an external hi-pass filter and I may be dismissing this model out of hand…and shouldn’t be and if you use this model, convince me.

I have a pretty large room (16’ wide x 40’ long x 8.5’ high (ceiling is split at 7.5’ and 9’)) so a bigger sub may be needed. Right now, I’m thinking ONE sub crossed-over pretty low. The C4’s do go pretty deep, but I probably agree that two would be “best” but expensive and the narrower room might make double placement hard. One is a snap, between the speakers away from the wall or near the right corner. I do not play “loud” (80-85 dB SPL average based on my radio shack SPL meter) but still like the smooth deep bass of a sub. Crazy loud isn’t the issue, but the sound quality is.

The choices are mind boggling in cost (JL Audio in mono or stereo) or mono (VELODYNE DD15+) verses stereo (SVS PB13 Ultra) set-ups at the same price. I have three options below to illustrate this.

The set-up that seems too expensive but outrageously good;
JL Audio Fathom f113 - $3600.00 / 13” / 2500 watts peak class D amplifier / sealed box.
But the sub needs a high-pass Cross-over like a Bryston 10B-STD @ $3,500.00

This is expensive compared to the SVS, but is it better than TWO SVS units?
Velodyne DD15 Plus - $4,000.00 / 15.0” / 1250 watt continuous class D amplifier / sealed box.

This seems like a good price but is the product good enough even if the price is? Use TWO of these in place of one DD15 Plus?
SVS PB13-Ultra - $2,000.00 / 13.5” / 1000 watts continuous class D / ported box.

So what have we done with subwoofers and why? This got real complicated real fast. Ported, vented, stereo at the same price as a mono sub ETC. The odds of auditioning these monsters are about zero as you hear the room. My room seems to be pretty good down low based on my Quatro set-up with powered subs. If a decision isn’t easy, I’m missing something…a lot of something’s it turns out.
rower30

Showing 5 responses by martykl

martykl
3,578 posts
 
Rower,

I'd say that your argument for a pair of DD 12s is pretty convincing. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that - if you do pull the trigger on that combo - you will be very happy with the results. It's not the specific approach that I use, but I think it's a very, very good one overall.

Marty
martykl
3,578 posts
 
For erndog and rower:

The NHT is a very good unit. I used it with my Velo SMS-1, because I wasn't crazy about Velodyne's internal hi-pass. The NHT is pretty much transparent (to my ear, anyway),really flexible, and reasonably priced
martykl
3,578 posts
 
IME, the answer is a little involved:

The Velodyne DD series subs have (DRC) software that is effective (when set up manually, the auto mode sucks) in smoothing bass response by correcting room induced effects. If you are listening to music only, "not that loud", then one 12" DD will probably be all that you need. Two will almost certainly be more than sufficient for that application in that room.

The JL has rudimentary software and SVS sells a separate (SVS-Audyssey) DRC box that is purportedly terrific. The same solution can be provided by any pre-pro equipped with Audyssey (or similar, like Anthem's ARC). HK also includes a variation in their HK990 integrated amp.

The caveat:

AFAIK, DRC is always managed in the digital domain. That means that your analog audio signal will see "ADC - room processing - DAC". I know that this does not appeal to many 'philes, particularly those using vinyl. In my book, the benefits of the software are worth the multi-conversion trade-off, but....

If you forego DRC, then 2 subs (if properly located) will provide smoother response than a single sub. You can place them so that room effects on one sub are (more or less) balanced out by room effects on the other. An extreme variation on this theme comes from A 'goner Duke at Audiokinesis, who sells a four sub solution called the Swarm. I haven't heard it, but, for a non- software corrected subwoofer system, it's the most conceptually appealing approach that I know of.

Marty

BTW You might also check out Ryhtmik. I use a pair of their 12" subs (w/ Audyssey) in my 2.2 channel, music only system and get great results.
martykl
3,578 posts
 
I believe that the reason that integrated high pass crossovers are disappearing from subs is simply economic. As you note, the high pass is redundant for HT use which - just guessing here - completely dominates the market for subs at any price. Then, within the small group of customers seeking high end subwoofers for 2 channel use, there's probably a fair chunk that prefers to use a separate x-over (Marchand, etc) anyway.

Including a high quality high pass unit integrated into the subwoofer surely increases price for a feature that has little value to most prospective buyers.

As to the "Do I or don't I?" high pass question, I think it comes down to DRC again. If you use DRC, you might get really good results either way. If you don't use DRC, I say high pass. I know that many other 'goners disagree, but I believe that the biggest advantage of subs can be heard in the smoother FR between 50hz and 75-125 hz (depending on the room) where room interaction is dominating very important musical info. For me, anything below 50hz is just icing on the cake - tho I will admit I do like that icing!.

In a DRC system, the software can do the heavy lifting. In a non-DRC system, your subs can go a long way toward smoothing response in this area....but only if they're crossed high enough to handle the bandwidth in question.

Just my preferred solution.

Marty
martykl
3,578 posts
 
Rower,

WHAT pray tell smooths out the C4's room bass response?

The obvious answer is "nothing". Most folks who run the main speaker full-range simply fit the sub's response "under" the rolled off bass response of the main speaker and live with the same ragged bass FR they had before adding the sub - they just get more extension, "air", etc. The point of this approach is to leave the main speakers' response intact. I think that this is rarely the best idea, but many others here disagree.

In any event, manual adjustment of the subwoofer's FR via parametric EQ (Velodyne DD) will let you really customize the fit as you "snug up" the top of the sub's output to the bottom of the mains'. I have run the Carver Cinema Ribbon Monitor (which have very little response below 100hz in-room) full range with DRC subs and gotten pretty good results. (Obviously, your C4 is a somewhat different animal than the CRM.)

But there is another approach, albeit one that is not ideal for a speaker that has extended bass response: You simply overlap the the sub and the main speaker up to a desired x-over frequency.

If you do want to try this approach with your C4, you could (depending on the DRC solution you choose) face different issues:

Full range DRC (ala Audyssey in an AVR) will smooth both sub and main until the "hand-off" is smooth. There should be no issue there.

Sub specific DRC (ala Velodyne) will allow you to attempt to manually "mold" the subs' response around the C4's output in the bottom octaves. That is, during set-up, you will see a video display of the summed bass response of the C4 run full range and the subwoofer. You adjust the sub via a combination of master sub volume level, placement, phase and (perhaps a touch of) parametric EQ such that you get enough subwoofer output to smooth all meaningful bass nulls. You then EQ the peaks via parametric attenuation until you have the smoothest possible overall FR below the sub's high cut frequency.

I can't swear that this approach will work well in any given room with any given sub/main combo, but it might work with some combos in some rooms. I'd recommend it only for those who REALLY don't want to interrupt the main signal path.

As I've indicated above, I definitely prefer to low cut the mains - but I described this "pure path" alternative to illustrate that you might be able to use DRC for the subwoofer without "corrupting" the sacred source->pre->power-> main chain. Not the way that I'd do it, but you could try.

Marty

As to optional high cut units, it sounds good, but you'd have to build a workable business case.
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