High End Audio-Gaining Higher Ground?

Frog, the reason parents do not discipline their children is that the social forces inherent in economic globalization
have driven the nuceler family in on itself in this phase of dog-eat-dog late capitalism.
Kids are needed as friends .
BTW, rock is a social force, I watched dancing go from a intimate act to an individual exibition as one example.

Read " Bowling Alone".

I see your point Frogman, thanks for that. I basically agree with it as well.

"Ultimately, what's the difference between Gwyneth Paltrow blogging about the 16 different products she puts on her face to let her natural beauty shine and a group of audiophiles describing ultra high end footers and how it let's them hear the music?"

Different hobbies.

Hobbies are hobbies. The only thing they have in common is is what the particular hobby enthusiast finds interesting.

It's nice to have a little time at least to waste on something I suppose. I like many hear am a sucker for good sound, so I find high end audio interesting. What better way to waste time than talking about what is high end or not. :^)

Economic globalization will turn out to be a blessing most likely.

We are all less prone to fight when in the same economic boat together. That's a good thing I think.

When people come together, in any way, it is usually a good thing. The exception of course would be sexually transmitted diseases. :^)

I like many hear am a sucker for good sound, so I find high end audio interesting. What better way to waste time than talking about what is high end or not. :^)

I do too! I've been into high end audio since the mid 80s when I was a teenager. Sure, why not. It's at least constructive instead of destructive behavior. :D

Would be hard, VERY hard , to be more wrong Mapman.
You have no concept of levels of analysis.

Minorl, sugar is sweet to an infant as to an adult. Bitterness requires a learning curve.

Schubert,

I believe my analysis would be at the macro level.

Results at the micro level will be different, however, most likely those that embrace the inevitable global economy strategically and effectively will surely benefit most, while those that resist change will most likely tend to suffer more.

Mapman, at least 10.000 children die a day as a direct result of global speculation in food.
In short, you're an ignorant fool.

Thanks Schubert.

Less speculation would seem to be in order. Not sure how to accomplish that one though.

The generally accepted number of child deaths worldwide due to starvation/malnutrition is 3.1 million. An astounding number, but substantially less than the 3.65 million used elsewhere in this thread. That's assuming all starvation deaths are attributable to financial food speculation which is a highly dubious assumption.

The worldwide number of people who are starving has declined by approximately 15% over the past two decades. And yes, in some desolate part of the world the cost of your new state of the art power cord would feed an entire village for a year.

No economy will ever substitute for charity, when needed.

Two different things I think, both needed.

I would tend to think a better global economy would help provide a better means to reduce hunger in many places.

It will never substitute for charities that address humanitarian issues not solved otherwise. There will always be those.

Its an imperfect world. We all know that.

Its always an interesting philosophical question about where ones money is best spent. Giving to others in need is globally recognized as a best practice I think. Its something I think even most credible religions agree on.

Here's an idea.

Audiogon should start a charity. IT could be funded by audiophiles with money to burn buying expensive audio gear. THe charity would help them find less expensive solutions for high quality sound, and donate the money saved to charity.

That would be a great thing for all, no?

"Minorl, sugar is sweet to an infant as to an adult. Bitterness requires a learning curve."

Okayyy, I absolutely have no idea what this means or what it has to do with the subject. But, maybe I missed something. was/is someone bitter?

enjoy

The current crop of high end manufactures sell to an ever decreasing crowd of old fools.

This is such a load of BS. I went to the Newport Beach Audio show three times and there were a flood of people there in their 20s and 30s…..far far more than the old grandpas in their 50s and 60s like myself. And many many presenters of systems were younger too. So there clearly is an interest by the younger crowd of likely high-educated and thus more able to afford the systems.

Mapman what a great idea to start a charity funded by rich audiophiles. How many audiophiles (attorneys, doctors) have gone out and purchased a very expensive system as a status symbol, a trophy as to impress the world they have the means and way to buy what some of us could only dream of, only to let it go because they didn't have the time or interest to listen to such a system. I think I have more respect for an audiophile that has invested the money methodically, piece by piece over a period of time to reach their goal. We shall make you the secretary of treasurer to oversee this charity.

That's really cool, Jafox. But how many of these people in their 20s and 30s are just looking at the equipment instead of buying? That's the $64000 question!

Since this audio game is on it's last leg and is going to wind up crashing like Radio Shack. Why don't we all just sell our gear and donate it to a charity. Maybe it will give Audiophiles a better name. And then let the young people be the next generation with their headphones and computers.

Dave_72: You could ask the same question of all the old codgers who no longer have the high income they so much enjoyed for decades.

True, there's tire kickers of all ages really. But, I am still curious to know if the 20 and 30 somethings are actually buying the equipment, or are just aspiring to. If they're not, that doesn't help the industry too much. Another argument is, just by looking at the you tube posts on videos regarding high end, is that most of the younger crowd doesn't seem to be interested in the concept of audiophilia. Matter of fact, they tend to go with the flat earth "all amps sound the same" objectivists. Which is really sad. Sure, there is imo, a lot of snake oil in this hobby, but there are actual licensed pro engineers that are designing and making high end components. To discredit all of high end as hogwash is really selling yourself short. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but that's what I see around me. Just my $0.02.

I live in a highly affluent town of a NE state (translated, most of my neighbors are one percenters I gather) and I'm one of two people I know of who have a tangentially high end system. Most everyone else has just a home theatre with built in speakers hidden in the ceiling if they have anything at all. There are likely more model train collectors than people with multiple component systems.

While friends tell me they enjoy what they hear at my place, no one seems interested in the complexity of what passes for high end. If friends knew I have fancy interconnects (let alone power cords) and have agonized over the great question of our age (which file format to use), they'd tell me to seek treatment for OCD.

It seems that product complexity and snobbery by manufacturers, retailers and users have worked to make this an increasingly niche hobby by aging males with expanding waistlines and receding hairlines, at least based on what I see at stores and shows.

I like the idea of starting a charity also. I think one great thing to do would be to redeploy audio systems owned by recently deceased audiophiles -- assuming, as is quite often the case, that the family members would like nothing better than clearing out heavy and sizable pieces of esoteric (lower case "e," and not a dig at the TEAC subsidiary). Perhaps we could donate the items to schools or homeless shelters.

All the money in the world won't stop you from having bad-taste.
2% of Americans listen to serious music .
A boom-box is overkill for popular music.

Schubert,
That may place me out of business as media retailer where I earn the most of dollar on serious music(not on pop or rap or hiphop that brings little to none and mostly in budget crates and bins).
I believe the number isn't so pessimistic.

We are aging. In another 10 years our numbers will be drastically reduced by various causes. Death, dementia, hearing loss, income loss, home loss, and loss of interest are all taking their toll gradually. I was born in 1947 and I've noticed that maybe 15 - 20% of us are older than me. If statistics are to be believed I'm near the front of the baby boomer curve. But the audiophile curve trends toward a higher average age than boomers. I'm guessing our greatest population bulge was born in the 1950s sometime. So, just do the math and read the obits. This thing is closing down. The surfeit of used audio gear will cause ridiculously lopsided supply/demand ratios and paralyze the market for new gear.
Personally, I'm about a sneeze away from going all digital and ditching the expensive gear I use and hoard. Times have changed and I am stagnating in my reluctance to change with them. How about you?

Maybe Czarivey has cornered the market on those 2%. :^)

I was in my local B&M audio shop today they are in process of adding a new vinyl area. The titles are varied but mostly well known ones from over the years. Except they are now $30 a pop. Cash cow anyone?

Thirty dollars for vinyl records? Wow. How much do they charge for 8-tracks and cassettes?

Part of what marginalizes so-called high-end audio is the hopeless complication. Use a PC or a Mac to stream music? No so fast; one has to "clean up" the power supply and, laughably, place the computer itself on uber-special footers to guard against "vibrations." (This ignores the fact that the computer itself performs hundreds of computations all of the time, and streaming music is itself, one of many functions it can do in an audibly error-free manner.)

Then, there is the media/reviewers. Try to look up a simple question ("how does a certain component sound?"), and one sees gems like the following:

"A fat toroid feeds the power supply from its own chamber to isolate the main circuitry from stray radiation. Rectification is via ultra-fast MUR 860 diodes, filtering by low-ESR Elkos. The 32’000uF storage capacitance could have this or that preamp cough in amusement but [the product's manufacturer] deliberately refrain from overkill to shorten capacitive recharge times."

Can't imagine why that's off-putting.

Food for thought, there Macrojack. However, I would prefer to remain optimistic to a point. The high end is slowly going up the creek without a paddle, but hopefully, hopefully this will turn around somewhat. I will continue to support and buy from companies who are not snake oil, and built and/or designed by licensed professional engineers. Accuphase, McIntosh, JBL, Bryston, Luxman, and to a lesser extent Yamaha and Onkyo come to mind.

I think audiophile "disease" starts in childhood ,only later when we grow up ,it transforms to hi end.

I concur. I always say most audiophiles are born, not made. It a pursuit of the finer things in life, and to hear music they way it's supposed to sound. Of course this applies more to acoustic rather than electronic music, but electronic music can sound quite good on a high end system. Not really for serious listening, but it's a lot of fun listening to a hard rock album on a killer system.

you are more than welcome to shop at my discogs iriedog account or any other account to see vinyl prices and they're not $30. you can find great titles(but hurry up) for $5 or bellow in perfect condition.

my storefront is full of teenagers purchasing records at various prices too depending on value. i'm optimistic and cheered to have great sales that bring joy to people.

i was born in rural area with no stores around, no roads in the middle of woods. the only my toy was old phonograph and records that gave me love to music. after curious roaming in the attic, i discovered old dusty 2-row harmonica and started picking melodies i listened on old phonograph. the demand for audio quality i found out much much later in my youth when moved to the large city.

It's just not as hard nor expensive to get very high quality sound these days. It's becoming more of a commodity, like most popular things technical do over time.

So audio is gaining higher ground in this sense, but its a totally different world and set of rules. Most people just want to listen and enjoy, not dwell on things as is the norm with "high end audio".

Whether its al for the better or not is probably a matter of perspective, but the old school audiophile mentality is definitely an endangered species.

Best to get with the times and just ride the wave, perhaps?

Cool story, Czarivey. :D

Macrojack, your comments are right on. Audiophiles as a group are in horrible denial about the future. Reminds me of one of the 12 step programs.

Macrojack and others of a similar opinion. While there is value in being "realistic" in one's outlook on any given subject, sometimes this "realism" is nothing more than cynicism and counterproductive negativity masquerading as pragmatism if one considers all the facts and related issues. In my opinion the topic of this discussion is of a higher order than most as it is linked to something of undeniably great value: music. Call me naive, but music and all that relates to quality production of it is best served by honoring it with a more uplifting and hopeful attitude; in keeping with the purpose of music itself. The pursuit and discussion of quality music reproduction is far more than discussion about the different types of makeup that a cover girl may use as someone cynically suggested in an earlier post. The fact that for some the high-end is only a status symbol is irrelevant. For many of us it is about maximizing what music listening has to offer; even if not necessary. I don't believe that this is a pursuit that will stop having supporters in a substantial way as long as there is quality music being produced by artists; and, if one understands the true nature of art it will be with us as long as we are.

Frogman - You seem to be conflating two topics here. Just as spirituality existed for centuries before churches co-opted it, so too did music exist for eons before electricity enabled the music industry. The beauty and majesty, the spiritual uplift, that you treasure in your music does not depend on electronic conveyance of a type or quality. It emanates from the human spirit and cannot be suppressed by opinion, data or my presentation of statistical inevitability.

I've often wondered if our pursuit of an ever greater high in listening to and striving for rapture amounts to anything more than trying to capture the high without the drugs. Marijuana played an enormous role in the birth of hi-end audio mass consumption and will (if anything can) be instrumental in its revival.
Insofar as press reports indicate that headphones are the only segment of the audio hardware biz that is growing, I have to speculate that the future of music enjoyment will be more personal - just as the pursuit of spirituality trends that way. As pot gains wider acceptance, maybe, just maybe, it will return to stoned listening circles something like we formed back in the day. More likely, in this computer age, it stays portable and private. Cans and wax are the future.
We are history. We played a damned important part, though. Look back at how much of the 1960s era social change has come to fruition and how much is just unfolding. Our society will never learn to think. That doesn't prevent the human spirit from doing the right thing in spite of itself and the meddling of religions.
That's whatI'm celebrating today, the 4th of July.

****Just as spirituality existed for centuries before churches co-opted it, so too did music exist for eons before electricity enabled the music industry. The beauty and majesty, the spiritual uplift, that you treasure in your music does not depend on electronic conveyance of a type or quality. It emanates from the human spirit and cannot be suppressed by opinion, data or my presentation of statistical inevitability.****

I cannot disagree with a word of that; very well said. I said the same thing in four words:

".....; even if not necessary."

The rest of your post? I am not so sure; but, thought provoking nonetheless. Thanks for the response and Happy 4th indeed.

Marijuana played an enormous role in the birth of hi-end audio

Really. How so? and why. Thanks.

Macrojack, I think you touched on the periphery of a subject that is seldom examined; the difficulty many audiophiles experience being satisfied with living in the present. You make the analogy of seeking ever greater audio realism with a drug users endlessly chasing a better high. There's a great deal of truth in that analogy I think. Both music and drugs can create pleasurable experiences and create a craving for the next endorphin rush.

That situation is just one aspect of a broader problem with the human mind. We humans are constantly comparing our present experience to something in the past we retroactively imagine was better than the present or we are creatively constructing a future that's better than the present. Constantly flickering between an imaginary more perfect past/future and the imperfect present creates the perfect consumer and an endless state of audio nervosa. It remains to be seen if that characteristic of the human mind will be our species most desirable or most harmful trait. Without the ability to imagine a better future, we'd still be shivering in cold caves and living a hunter gatherers lifestyle. If we don't tame our inability to be content with enough, we'll end up destroying the resources that sustain us.

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High End Audio manufacturers discussing how to get the younger generation interested in equipment is like tobacco companies discussing how to boost sales.
Maybe they need to take a lead from the Oil companies. They seem to be doing fine.
I have two younger children and I would never encourage them into High End Audio. I'm like Marley's ghost with the chain and money box on my ankle, but this stuff is electronic.
If either of my children keep any of my stuff, I hope it will be my RECORD COLLECTION!
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You make the analogy of seeking ever greater audio realism with a drug users endlessly chasing a better high. There's a great deal of truth in that analogy I think.

I think so too. Having never used drugs, although I have abused alcohol in the past and I used to smoke, my number 1 "drug" of choice is and was music. More audio realism gets you closer to the actual performance, imo. That's what I'm in this for; to get a thrill out of a musical event happenning right in my listening room. To get as close as possible to a band playing in front of you. I think that's the general idea of high end audio; to approximate the original performance. Personally, I'll never be fooled that I have a band in front of me, but you can get close, imo.

At best I'm trying to recreate the sound in the mastering studio which may or may not have a basis in real time musician performing.

To put what some people could interpret as cynicism in a more proper perspective, consider that sales of make-up products for 2013 in the US were close to $57 billion while for the same period recorded music sales were only $7 billion. If listening to music or using cosmetics to improve your physical appearance is an attempt at spiritual transcendence then clearly the general population is seeking nirvana via makeup. That actually makes some sort of sense since physical adornment probably predates making music in human evolutionary development.

But what about those people who go overboard with their make-up? At what point does it become too much make-up and instead of enhancing it begins to overpower your underlying physical assets? For audiophiles the analogous question is at what point does the sound of your system start to distract from you listening to music? With cosmetics it's easy to see how garish someone can look, or with perfume, smell. I believe as audiophiles we have a hard time seeing how garish some of our system look and sound to the general populace.

Why do you need all the make-up to look good? Why do you need all that equipment to enjoy music? They really are equivalent questions.

I have to disagree. One doesn't need all that makeup to look good; and I wonder what the women here think of that comment. Enhancement? Possibly; depending on the tastefulness of the subject and the eye of the beholder. High end audio, in the true sense of recreating the original event, is not an enhancement; it is the stripping away of the "makeup" in order to get at the natural beauty within.

It is true that one doesn't "need" all the trappings of audiophilia in order to enjoy music. It is also true that many do, in fact, use it as makeup; but, that enhancement (for example: a subwoofer turned up too loud) is a distortion and often detracts from the enjoyment to the ears of an astute listener. While some of these ideas are thought provoking and have some truth in them, I am left with the thought that if, in fact, the highend is dying it is no wonder that it is; and, ironically, it is in part because some audiophiles seem hellbent on taking away from it what is (or can be) a truly noble goal.

At best I'm trying to recreate the sound in the mastering studio which may or may not have a basis in real time musician performing.

I would agree with that. However, to get the sound of the master tape, you need the master tape. Everything else is a copy. On the other hand, there's excellent copies out there, like very first pressings, white label promos, etc. Perhaps with mostly imperfect recordings and let's face it, there's no such thing as perfect equipment, quite a few audiophiles are the proverbial cat trying to catch its own tail. I plead guilty to this as well. You really have to sit down and spare a moment to think what you're after in putting together an audio system. This stuff isn't cheap, as you know.

...and expensive mistakes have been made. I am guilty of that too.

Dave_72 you already know about expensive mistakes, I have made a few mistakes myself, not anymore. I have a problem giving advice to anyone who has just entered this hobby and what to recommend because it will take a few years of trial and error to get a grip on what sounds good for yourself. It was of little consequence to try different products over time because it was very easy to turn gear over on Audiogon at the time, so very few dollars were lost, I don't think it is that easy now.

I teach in a university and without question, young people are flocking to better quality. 80% of young people into music today are buying it solely on vinyl. I won't pretend that there is a huge interest in high end audio now, but there is a solid interest in mid-fi like Pro-Ject turntables and vintage Marantz receivers.. And honestly, I think that is more important for the health of the industry. So yeah, things are looking up for the first time in a while. Will you see them in the Magnolia section of Best Buy? No way, but you won't see me in there either, you know?

I teach in a university and without question, young people are flocking to better quality. 80% of young people into music today are buying it solely on vinyl.

Intermediatic

Really? Can you back that up with any data?

"80% of young people into music today are buying it solely on vinyl. "

I do find that hard to believe.

Some interest in vinyl in pockets perhaps, like certain Universities. College kids often do things just to be different.

One of my son's 3 room mates last year did have a turntable, vintage receiver and records in his dorm room. I was impressed! Only 25% of the kids in that room though. That's about the extent of my stats on the subject. :^)