Good article in TPV issue with 2005 recommended products.
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From what I gather the momentum is behind Blue Ray thank goodness . It is not supporting sacd and I am not positive about dvd a but i doubt it . It should be backward compatible to play your dvd collection . The audio format will be called TRUE HD I think and will be based on MLP lossless technology . The catch is that unless your monitor supports HDMI you are out of luck as it will downconvert the signal so once again , the early adopters get reamed. There may still be a dual launch and Samsung has already announced a universal player but of course it will not be high end . Release dates are the second quarter of 06. Maybe a tad sooner.
Read the latest Absolute Sound, they answer some of these questions. I know that Samsung has commited to only produce backwards compatible players but no mention of the audio formats. I think they would be crazy not make these players fully backwards compatible. The unfortuneate here is that from what I have read is we are in for another format war. Isn't greed a wonderful atribute of manufacturers. You'd think they would realize they hurt their sales and launch of a new product but they won't give in. I think I'll just play my HDLPs.
There's a lot riding (read $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) on the outcome, which is why the various parties can't dance successfully. First in MIGHT win, but the situation is complicated. Issues include:
The cost of conversion in manufacturing,
Stock issues in stores,
Fighting public perception and hesitation,
Sufficient attractive quantities of desirable software.
For more see http://www.GreatHomeTheater.com/hd-dvd.html
We should know a lot more next week at Cedia....but Blu Ray is currently in the lead with both software and hardware support..and is rumoured to have at least a few examples at Cedia.
When the PS-3 is released which could be this spring or next November....there will instantly be millions of B/R players in the general publics homes via the trojan horse theory.
The latest B/R info mentioned several players and quite a bit of content by June 06.
Ears means CES. I'll be there and am sure this will provide much amusement. Anyway, looks like both formats will produce Hi Def DVDs. Blu rays will be more expensive. ( Meaning the actual DVDs) the players will start at 1000 when first introduced.
The CEO of Netflix was interviewed on Charlie Rose 2 nights ago or so. He thinks it will take three years for enough titles and equipment to be out to make a real change in the mass market.
I think the same and will happily buy new stuff when Receievers can decode Hi Res audio content, Plamas can display true 1080P, and HDMI conects actually work without problems from reliable DVD players.
Opp's....yes I meant Cedia.
I will be an early adopter of B/R...just like I was a very early dvd adopter.
The B/R players are rumoured to have far more software upon release than sd dvd ever dreamed of having.
www.hidefinitionrentals.com and others will be renting the discs also.
But what really excites me at Cedia is Optoma's rumored h- 80 dlp 1080p fp with 1500 lumens,8k contrast and 4k bulb for 6k list.
This could very well mean 4k or so street prices on 1080p fp's by mid summer or so.
CES did have a prototype Philips player with dvd as well as sa-cd logos on it...so time will tell if there are sa-cd players from Blu Ray.
The latest blow to hd is Blu Ray supporter Disney buying Pixar studios.
Now you have these studios that are exclusive to Blu Ray
Columbia Tri Srar
Blu Ray has zero incentive to support a universal player, and no amount of hd player discounting is going to over come this huge lack of studio support, as well as the huge PS3 sales.
I don't see this war lasting long and it looks as if the studios have decided which format will prevail, if only because of the better security of Blu Ray and the PS3's potential to put Blu Ray into millions of homes quicker than all other harware manufactuers combined.
The Wall Street Journal agrees with you. They are stating that because blu-ray has a larger storage capacity just as VHS had more tape over Betamax that Blu_ray will "win the .war"
I disagree with that reasoning for sure. But I just dont see many folks running out to spend 1000 bucks on an HD DVD player before 1080P displays are even available. And I am lookin forward to seeing the cost of a blu ray Hi Def DVD disk. I do see Netflix has agreed to carry both- ( obviously they are putting the squeeze on the financially disadvantaged blockbuster)
I think as long as any players, whether Blue Ray or HD DVD, are backwards compatible with current DVD's, which people have so heavily embraced over the years, no one will really care which format takes over. Anything that's an improvment, that won't change their already comfy livestyle with current DVD tech is just fine with the public. Actually, most won't really care that their's potentially more audio or video quality by enlarge, but the added storage would be more welcome, I'm sure.
Still, sounds like HD DVD would be the likely next step, just cause it's just more info for already successful dvd format. But we'll see.
Me personally, I'd just like better pic and potential audio quality...that's all I care about. Still, I'd be perfectly happy if HD DVD wins out as well. Either way, we're potentially stepping up in performance.
I've not seen 1080p. While it is clear that 1080i from my STB is superior to what I get from DVD, the DVD picture is still stunning. Makes me wonder if PQ will really drive a format change, or is 1080p really that good?
With a B/sR player, I should get a better picture even from my 1080i HDMI plasma set, right? So I could get the new disc player but not have to upgrade the display right away.
Thats right Drubin...you get a better picture now at 720p or 1080i....and down the road when you get a 1080p display, your all set.
Blu Ray has done a lot more forward thinking with there format with all hd dvd players being limited to 1080i, a lot less disc space, and only a Toshiba player that only has 2 channels of lossless audio available with the other three being regular DD/DTS.
Pioneer Elite, Sharp, Sony es,Samsung, Panasonic,Philips Blu Ray player/recorder, LG ect all have players coming, With the Samsung due first, and then in June the Pioneer Elite and Sony es players Blu Ray players.
Actually there are several manufacturers of HD-DVD players besides Toshiba and the deinterlacing will be worked out by the end of the year as a new crop of true 1080P input capable displays become available.
AS far as High rez audio- I was at both dolby and DTS demos and got that cool dts test disc as a freebie. There really isnt any difference between hi res audio and what we have now. No one that I sat with at CES- not one person-claimed to hear any difference. The advertising for the new hi rez audio formats is for "lossless audio transfer so you can hear it just like the audio engineers.'
Cool. The problem is that even with current DVD audio tracks, the fulldata rate capabilities are not being reached in most instances; simply put, there isn't anything to lose in most sound tracks.
Finally, a receiver has to be able to fully decode the new audio codec. SO put your hands up--Whose got one? Answer- just about no one.
I recently spoke with John at Theta Digital and asked him which format they will use. He told me this battle between the two Japanese firms Sony and Toshiba will get ugly and Theta won't commit until at least 2000 titles have been released in one of the two formats. He told me they R&D'd DTS and DD EX to have in the Casablanca lll and to this day there are less than 200 titles between the two. I have gone through the replacing all my media to a new format only to do it again a few years later. I am going to wait and when Theta's Compli or next gen transport for Hi-Def DVDs is out I will commit then. For now I'll stick with regular DVDs and CDs. Just my 2 pennies.
Rysa....your dead wrong on this and obviously heard a poorly set up audio demo.
I can easily hear the difference between double bit rate dvhs tapes and there sd dvd counterparts....and so can any average Joe who has ever heard the difference in my H/T.
Lossless 96/24 or in the case of Blu Ray, possible 192/24 7.1 audio will be absolutely better in every respect on any well done current movie soundtrack, and be even better for upcoming releases.
There are no 1080p players being built for hd dvd that have been announced or seen, and as a matter of fact, I don't beleive its in the actual spec for that format except as a possible future option.
With Warner now saying all movies on BD, and not just a limited amount as some Microsoft/hd dvd pr people tried to pitch, and add to that no support for hd dvd from
Columbia Tri Star
This will all be over imo, by the first year after the PS3 release with Blu Ray being the winner.
Alrighty- How can you hear a difference when the receivers and firmware to decode the new audio codec don't even exist yet? And double bit rate dig-vhs isnt even the same thing. You appear to be commenting on something you have never heard. To be clear, if you havent heard DTS-HD and DOlby-HD-, which DTS and Dolby set up themselves by the way at CES, you can't really comment with any validity now can you? Also, lets look at this; what I am saying is that in most DVD sound tracks, the bit rate limits are NOT reached- increasing that rate with a lossless potential- the claim of DTS and Dolby HD is meaningless if the current limits aren't even reached. I have the DTS -HD demo disk for 2006- it sounds great- just like their "non-HD" demo from last year- over my 5.1 non-HD audio receiver- just like everyone elses out there. Again, there aren't really any receivers out there that are set up to decode the new hi rez audio codec- Some of the 2007 denons are set up to handle the firmware, and probably their 2006 stuff as well, when it becomes available.
All HD players will be able to output 1080P by then end of the year, hopefully at the same time the HDMI chipset standards get set and displays can accept a true 1080P signal. Rihgt now, its all a big discussion with no content out there and a complete lack of agreed upon standards and available technology.
Ears- better go back to the forum and round up some better ammo! hehe.
In addition, I just finished the extended version of Return of the King- All 4 hours of it. The audio is awesome- the increase in bit rate isnt going to offer that much more.
Also, for any format war to be meaningful, people are going to have to buy the players-- and at 1000-1800 dollars a pop- not included the increased cost of the Blu Ray discs themselves--dont hold your breath.
Rysa...the PS3 will out sell any and all hd dvd players combined just 24 hours after its launch even with a 6 month lead time for hd dvd.....putting more installed BD players in homes than hd dvd could ever hope to have.....game over.
Studio support + PS3 + automatic win for BD....period.
I never claimed to hear some flawed demo at CES....there are absolutely zero hd dvd players in the world that can do 1080p including proto types ect.
Anyone that wants to support 1080p will be buying a Pioneer Elite, Sony es,Panasonic or Sharp BD player for the forseeable future.
You do not need a receiver to decode the 96/24 or 192/24 soundtracks either....you need a BD player and analog outs.....much like sa-cd/dvd-a.
You should know this if you were there at this demo.
The Toshiba hd dvd players will not be decoding more than 2 channels though as they down res there other channels to normal dd/dts as well as down res there video to only 1080i.....so this is a BD player only option at this time.
BD + 7.1 on board decoding with analog outs that can be used on current gear and 1080p.
hd dvd = wait until the end of the year for a receiver or pre/pro that does the decoding that your player will not, and no 1080p, as well as a miniscule amount of studio support.
Well I read your rant. I am not talkin about PS3. Analog gear wont be useful as the copy protection will necessitate HDMI which as you know carries both audio and video signal. New firmware will be required on audio receivers in order to decode hi def audio correctly. Analog can of course carry anything but 1080P is basically HDMI 1.3 due to copywrite protection and the audio is going to be carried with that.
In order to hear "full rez audio" you will need the updated firmware as part of the decoding processon ANY hi def audio capable receiver. Now you are suggesting that someone would use an HDMI out for video and still be able to use 8 analog outs for 7.1 audio. First, I am not sure that that will be possible, but second--nobody is gonna do that. People want touse their HDMI connect only and maybe a coax dig or optical just like today. very few people are gonna buy 7 analog connections and fiddle with that and most do not have receivers that accept all of that analog input for each separate audio channel. SACD and DVD-A have essentially failed by the way--so thats not a very good example.
Also, it really isnt game over. The PS3, just like the XBOX is by no means a slam dunk quality player for movies. If that was the case then why make any other players at all? I'm not really concerned about who is winnig, only that the HDMI chip specs, 1080P content, 1080P displays, and 1080P players are far from being on the same page at this point. I mean nothing is avaialable or set, and its all really expensive. Very few people will spend the bucks on all of the technology pieces to make this work.
How were the audio demos at CES flawed? Please tell me. I mean NOBODY could hear any difference. The demos were run by DTS and dolby in their own set ups. They were great. But not better.
Why do you think there are 7.1analog outs on most BD players seen at CES?
Anolog outs are fully capable of delivering even 192/24.
It seems hd dvd is only required to have 2 built in lossless channels, and the two Toshiba models only have 5.1 channels, with all but two, downrezzed to regular dd/dts.
The actual announced titles so far for hi res audio soundtracks are all on BD only movies, and are linear lpcm with zero compression..... or actual true lossless audio.
You see BD can skip right by DTS HD and DD with its higher average bit rate and 50gb disc if it chooses to, and so far, it chooses to.
So its true that for hd dvd, you will need one of these receivers, pre/pros next year to hear hi res soundtracks, but BD is no one trick pony.
BD = actual 1080p and 7.1 lossless audio.
hd dvd = 1080i with no more than 2 channels of lossless audio unless you replace your current gear next year.
Well lets try it again...
1. Its not about a BD vs HD-DVD competition--the market will settle that.
2. Actually I didnt see any analog outputs being used in the hi def demos at CES. What I saw was HDMI interconnects.
3. Almost nobody has a 7.1 surround system in their homes. Some do. But very few. 5.1 is what is prevalent in HT set ups and all of those HTIBs sold every day at the big box retailers.
4. I like analog myself. But very few folks are going to buy and hook up 7 analog connections, a sub pre-out, and an HDMI as well. How silly. Also, there is discussion as to whether analog audio will be available when HDMI is in use at the same time. Moreover, almost NO ONE has analog channel inputs on the receivers for speakers. They are out there but very few.
5. Therefore, in the big picture, unfortunately, analog audio outputs have no relevance at all. Its gonna be HDMI whether we like it or not.
6. The only way Hi Def DVD, for audio and video, eclipse todays offerings is if; 1. You own a true native 1080P display. 2. You own a true 1080P player. 3. You have HD-DVDs/BD by purchase or rental. 4. You have the correct HDMI chipset in your player and display. 5. And you have an HDMI interconnect. 6. And you have a firmware updated receiver. Cost?- At a minimum--6500 bucks.
7. Right now, the availability to set that up is non-existent. No content and no hardware. But it will come on board bit by bit over the year I am sure. And it will be, price-wise- out of reach for 99% of the consumer population of the United States.
8. Nobody can hear any difference between the new audio formats and the old ones, the reason is that there is no loss of data in most DVDs today becuase the current technical limits are sufficient to carry the audio engineers creations as mixed. Simply put, the new audio codec doesnt add much if anything in most films/movies.
Again.... this is Audiogon and not the Joe 6 pack board.
7.1 analog ins are not required to experience hi res audio soundtracks...only 5.1....and I gaurantee you that most here have at least 5.1 who are into H/T.
Two years ago , I sold my Parasound halo c2 pre/pro here, and it had 7.1 analog ins.
People are more likely to use analog ins than wait over a year and buy a new receiver/pre/pro with hdmi.
And like I already said...Blu Ray does not require DTS HD or DD for hi res sound.
They have enough gb and bit rate for linear lossless audio on a 50gb disc., and at least three already announced titles that will use linear lossless.
Were are all these other people that heard no difference....certainly there not much mention of this at AVS.
If I am missing this big topic were everyone heard no difference....please point it out for us.
Did this Dolby demo even use an actual BD disc.....no
Did they have the quality of speakers that your average member here uses....probably not.
Did you here any linear lossless BD soundtracks....absolutely not.
Is there any proto type hd dvd player with 1080p compatibility ....no.... this is pure hype that you don't seem to want to talk about now that its been pointed out.
Members here are more likely to care about any upgrade in audio quality as well as who has it from the get go and how they can use it this summer and not in a year or so.
I have been using analog for sa-cd since 99/00.
If your reffering to average Joe on any of this....they will not be a factor for a few years if ever....except those that get a BD player via PS3 of course, and possibly try BD just because they have that capability.
AS far as the latest news though, the real deal is that while both PS3 and XBOX will be financially successful, the future of hi def DVD by anybody is in doubt at this point. There are many factors required for either format to be successful, and right now, as mentioned by other posters on this thread, many of us here who are audiophiles are simply going to wait it out; same with the videophiles to a large extent. Even moreso actually because the video part of this is very easy to define as far as specs etc. No one is going to buy a blu ray DVD for the audio alone. Lets face it.
AS far as analog outputs, most of us have analog reference two channel rigs and something else for HT; Most HT receivers used by sheer numbers DO NOT have separate audio channel analog inputs; its usually a digital coax, optical, or HDMI input for HT. SO analog 7.1 which you were first pushing, and then analog 5.1, isn't really of any significance. It wont help either format succeed. And yes, I know that the Arcam 300 for instance has analog inputs. And other brands we use here as well- but its still a significant minority.
AS far as the demos at CES- DTS knows what they are doing. The demo was great! But not any holy grail of audio. Dolby had one of their top engineers there who actually designs the Dolby processing process- their room was too small to take full advantage of their new 14.1 ( yes) demo-- but again- hi rez audio demo was good but not any different than a good 5.1 soundtrack that we have now.
One of my friends is a sound engineer in Los Angeles and did some of the soundtracks for movies like " Hot Chicks" and "Scooby Doo" including and especially the music. What I am saying is that the concept of "lossless audio" so we can hear just as the audio engienners intended" assumes that we aren't hearing something now due to some technical limitation that will be removed with the new audio codec. But right now we are hearing everything intended to be heard because the technical limits we now have are not even being reached in the vast majority of soundtracks. So having a faster/greater bitrate and other technical improvements don't give an audible result.
As far as audiogon and audio improvements, I am one of those two channel reference set up analog tube gear guys that thinks that LPs sound a lot better than CDs and isnt particularly wowed by digital technology and processing. I dont like equipment getting in the way of my music and I prefer not to notice it at all. Audio on HD-DVD and Blu Ray is simply processed creativity--but is far from reference analog audio for me at this point.
I reread your post;
1. CES- I saw ALL of the Blue Ray demos- including PS3, the blu ray feature pack on what they will do with all of that disk space, and 2 other demos as well. One for the player and one for a presentation of technology. The only stuff that looked any good to me, as far as drastic improvement video wise- was from hard drive loops or small LCD computer monitors.
2. The DTS demo room had tremendous equipment and was demoing their full audio hi rez. It sounded great. The DOlby room was smaller but also sophisticated in what and how they demoed. You werent there and really arent in any position to offer valid input at all. The people setting up those rooms I guarantee you know what they are doing.
3. AS far as your comments on linear lossless audio without DTS and DOlby-- well- you are basically on drugs I presume. DTS and Dolby are responsible for the audio processing technology on Hi Definition DVDs in Hollywood. We will have menus and pick one or the other or probably good ole DTS or Dolby 5.1 and 2 channel just like now. The linear lossless option is such a non-player in this that I am suprised you are bringing that up. And there is talk of copy protecting the audio just like the video so that use of analog connects will not be able to transmit the full rez audio signal. Whether that will be true or not.. I dont know. I also have heard that some players may not allow simultaneous audio via HDMI and other audio outputs. I am guessing this wont be true.
Anyway, I think your post is interesting to read but off the mark abit. AS far as players, we can now see that the hardware side isnt really ready for releases anytime soon as far as optimal hdmi 1.3 chipsets, audio, 1080P source and a host of other facts. Lots of talk and lots of uncertainty.
Rysa......the only way you can even hear any hi res audio on any announced titles so far,is on three BD titles that are using linear audio....and this is a fact.
I don't think your on drugs....just not informed, or up to date.
Only BD has the capacity to have linear audio soundtracks and 1080p.
And I am not saying all BD soundtracks will be linear, just these first three so far.
There is far more info available about all things hd since CES, than there was at CES.
If you do not care about hi res audio soundtracks or the supposed unremarkable difference between hi res video, and sd dvd.....why are you even posting on the matter to begin with?
I only listen to music in two channel also including sa-cd, but movies are the exception to this rule, and I have had way overkill center and surrounds for years now, waiting for a viable reason besides gimmicky sounding sa-cd/dvd-a recordings to use them.
Hi Ears. Actually my posts are on the money with up to date facts and actually, you arent refuting anything I am saying; I am hopeful YOU are getting up to speed.
You can hear Hi Rez audio by the folks that are creating it- DTS-HD and Dolby-HD are the adopted formats. They are the companies that gave the demos. AS well as Blu Ray which I also heard.
For the technical reasons I have explained, there isnt any benefit in most cases to the technical advancements that Dolby-HD offers, because current limits in bitrate transfer arent being reached as is. In most cases, there isnt anything to gain, and nothing is being lost. According to your post- dialog for instance is supposed to sound better with Hi res audio- HUH?? Does that really make sense to you? Dialog is like 70% of the audio info in HT. Its gonna sound the same current DVD soundtracks vs next generation. THE SAME. ANd frankly, pretty much everything else is too. Sound is just SPL against an eardrum. A 16 HZ note through a super sub isnt going to sound better becuase of Hi Rez-- our ears cant discern any difference. Think about it!
I certainly care about advancements in audio and video-- but I am laying out the reality as well based on firsthand experience, which I don't think you have any of!
I have no idea what you mean by gimmicky SACD and DVD-A recordings by the way.
AS far as more info available over the past 30 days, you are right but its mostly about video. I am not aware of any changes in audio codec info? What specifically are you referring to?
The other comment that I have is regarding use of analog outputs for audio. The disk will still have encoded audio signal on it. The DVD player will have to have the firmware to decode the audio information in the player itself before sending the lossless audio signal out the analog outputs. I am not sure that any player can do that. I will wait and see.
somebody who has an enthusiasm for sound reproduction, especially high-fidelity recordings or broadcasts of music
Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
Now that I know the formal definition, I realize I am a audio equipment obsessed jackass.
All Sony and MGM movies to have multi channel uncomppressed audio with nothing official on the other Blu Ray studios yet.
The Samsung will be the only player out on launch day 5-23-06, with the Pioneer Elite at 1500.00 in June, and the Sony flagship player at 999.00 in August.
I have only seen pre order Blu Ray movies at one place that actually has pricing.
www.dvdsoon.com just search Blu Ray for 20 titles at 17.59 to 22.87.
Ears - If you recall correctly Blu Ray was not originally backward compatible with existing DVD's. The Panasonic technology was, however. Sony hearing the gasps and outrage from existing DVD owners finally jumped on board to make their technology backward compatible. This was only announced officially last week, so to say "of course Blu Ray is bacward compatible" fails to hit the mark.
I recall speculation and FUD from the other camp about all kinds of things that turned out to be false...but the Sony player had cd/dvd printed right on it at CES....and some of the more A/V related boards have had the basic specs on several of the first players for quite some time now.
What do you mean by Panasonic technology...as there 100% Blu Ray only with there support...like about everyone else thats commited to a format is.?
The only major change thats been discussed recently, is the Samsung player changing from being only 1080i like the hd dvd players are, to 1080p at the last minute, making all Blu Ray players including the upcoming PS3....1080P.
Sony did just say in the past week that all of there movies would play 1080 HD via component which is big news for owners who don't have an HDCP/HDMI/HDTV.
Some news factoids this week:
More HD DVD Issues: Warner May Miss Launch Date:
LG Drops Blu-ray, LCoS, PMC From Lineup
Sony pushes PS3 launch back to November. That will keep many Blu-Ray players off the market till then. PERHAPS they are waiting to intro new displays that take 1080p input? (Who knows?)
At least some Warner titles will be available for hd dvd 4-18
Sonys BDP-S1 was officially announced today www.blu-ray.com/
1080i hd over analog component/1080p via hdmi.
Uncompressed multi channel audio.
Samsung BD-P1000 is due out 5-23-06 along with initial Blu Ray titles.