HiFi vs MidFi
Tell ya what If you are willing to give up some fq's in bass + highs response, you will be rewarded with midrange magic in a SET. So its hard to say one is better than the other. But I'd say SET is my preference. PP asa 2nd setup. Speakers, only a FR system will do. I look at xover/low sensitivity speakers as midfi. Including Zu and Tekton, both mid-fi. To qualify for hifi speakers there must be near zero cloration/distortion. At say 70-75 db SPL. I listen to music at no more than 65 db SPL.
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With a taste of a single SET amp, I may have to give the edge to SET on fidelity vs PP amplification, Have another SET arriving in 2 weeks. Will keep you guys posted. If a winner, then unequivocally I have to place SET as king of amplification. AS for speakers/high fidelity ,, you know how I feel about that contest. No need to reiterate, and be-labor that point.
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There are basically, roughly 3 levels of musical reproduction, Low, medium, high. Bose would be a perfect example of the very lowest spectrum of fidelity in speakers. Many ss amps I would place in low to mid fi. I'd say there are more SET amps that qualify for high fidelity, vs whereas I am not sure I could place alot of PP amps in this category.
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The three levels of "fi" you list is sheer genius
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ hehee
yeah well someone has to start to classify things . If your set up requires 90++ SPL massive room, heavy metal,, then of course a SET will not work, or lets say its far from *The Ideal*.. But for avg/small rooms, reasonable SPL (I listen at 60 SPL) and light blues. jazz, classical chamber, then a SET is near perfect. You **could** use a PP amp,, but why? SET’s offer far superior midrange,, well let me back up, the mids ofa SET are superior to a PP amp. PP will render bass, highs a bit better. Which is why if you go SET, best speaker will be eithera horn system , but ideally a FR se up with woofer and high end tweeter. I have to place this set up over PP amplifaction. I’ve listened to 3 PP amps, EL34, KT88, KT120. I really was not **WOW*ed by any of the 3, now that I know what a SET can do. This is why I give the Cuban Cigar to the SET. Happy holidays to to you as well. |
In terms of price, it’s usually $100-$200k difference. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not true fact of this matter what is MidFi vs HIGH FIDELITY is simply stated KT series tubes (EL34,88,120,150, might even throw Jadis’ 170 in this midfi group) is midfi High Fidelity are the so called DHT SET and PP designs. DHT Let me be clear KT aka Kinkless Tetrode = Mid Fidelity, nice but no cigar.
vs DHT now here is where the golden sounds are voiced. The crown jewels of tube amplification. Jut my 2$ opinion which will only get you a $2 cup of coffee, you KT fans , dont get all bent out of shape over my unbiased opinion. . Stay **kink=less** ;--) https://www.diy-audio-guide.com/direct-heated-triodes.html |
Take the world finest amps/digital (Jadis' $$$$$$$$$ DACs/Drives) /Phonos /linestage/preamps. Hook these components to any midfi speaker,,take your pick...and what ya got? Midfi sound. Now take a super HIFI (like I have) speaker and hook it up to a Sony system, cd player/receiver, and ya got hifi. I've tested this out folks. Not saying nuances in the all jadis system are not there,, indeed there are stunning nuances. but the real hifidelity is inside the speakers. No 2 speakers sound alike, All tube amps, pretty much sound the same to my ears. |
freediver936 posts10-15-2021 8:57pmMidFi is a derogatory term used by those with so called golden ears & deep pockets who refuse to admit that the performance gap between overpriced gear & affordable gear is almost non existent these days & that the law of diminishing returns starts at about $1000.00..They will swear to their almighty guru huckster that $10,000.00 vinyl rigs with $1000.00 vacuum cleaning machines sounds more organic & real than a $1500.00 digital rig despite SNAP CRACKLE POP still clearly dominating the sound..The term should die a horrible death along with the more $ = better sound mentality... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WOW thats some straight shooting. have to 100% agree. Although I like Jadis as a preferenc, I could use any Dynaco ST70, and get near same sound. I bought all Jadis used and found out high priced components olike ARC, and all others are hyped. My digital system captures almost same sonics as a $100K vinyl system. Speakers is where its all at. And again, the more you spend does not equate into superior sound. This science is not about money. Its how a speaker actually sounds, regardless if the speaker comes from a popular famous lab. The one component that is hyped more than all others combined are the speaker component. I find most speakers midfi >> low fi >>>complete total fatigue. |
Seems the consensus is big audio budget does not equate to **far superior* sound. Got it. But we all have to at least admist, there are *Nuances* to gain in one component vs another. Although I did state all tube amps pretty much sound the same, well I said **pretty much** I never said equal. Some tube amps voice ever so slightly dif from the next. My Shanling CD300 was indeed a nuance superior to my cayin CD player,, The Jadis DAC with Mundorf caps and high tgech Class A JFET opamps/Tele AU’s, is a nuance superior to the Shanling. Point is I could be very well happy witha 1960;s Dynaco ST70 stock original caps (no botique Mundorf caps) vs my Jadis Defy7/Mundorf/Takman resistos/Teles, as the 2 sounded pretty much the same in my ..here’s the clinger.. ’classiacl music. As we all know classical muisc engineers were hit and miss, Sure some DG engineers had great success, Some Philips/EMI and most other labels have issues in the recording quality. The one musical genre where I do feel, if you can afford Jadis’ line, is in jazz music. Jazz recordings will pick up the nuances quite well. But for classical , nah, it makes no sense spending big cash on hi fidelity components. I did say *high fidelity* , nuances all add up. When you pilea bunch of nuances all together in one big pile,, now you really got something going,, For jazz. In classical, really a Sony CD player, Dynaco ST70 1960s/stock caps BUT with Teles,, and a hifi WBer,, now thats as about all the hifi you are going to get. But IF I can afford the Jadis CD player at $12K,,yeah I’m going to get it. Is it 12K better than the Sony in classical music,, most likely just a nuance, nada mas. I could be wrong as I’ve not tested a Sony vs Jadis’ 12K player. Just know I had bought ( My Cayin was having Mundorf caps installed, need a temmp player) a used Yamaha 6 cd player with the rotating plate thing and was surprised it sound **almost** as good as the Cayin CD17 with some Mundorf Caps. Its the chase of high price speakers that puzzels me most. Most have issues and this disqualifies them for being taged *High Fidelity*. Here are the following amps I heard that brought me to the conclusion all tube amps sound **pretty much** the same Dynaco ST70 modded SET DIY with Colbalt trans/ uses a 50 tube Allen Organ amps with KT120;s Cayin 35 amp , the lillte guy with EL34’s($800) Jadis Defy7. Any of these amplifiers would work just fine in my classical **NOT hifi* recordings. If we are considering jazz, again,, any one would work just fine. Its the speakers that make jazz music either hifi, mid fi low fi, or just plain muddy/colored/fatiguing. |
add my personal experience: I have $20K speakers but my earlier 1K speakers delivered the music. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There is more snakeoil going on in speaker hype that all other snakeoil concerning all things audio,, well, except for the cable snakeoil, Nothing can touch that snakeoil But speakers take 2nd place. My WBer things can outperform any xover speaker in midrange xover types I conisder midfi, WBers hifi. Take Sonus faber, nice speakers, they use Scan Speak. Scanspeak are not going to outperform my WBers in WB fq’s. SF =$$$$$$$$ My WBers = $. There ya go, pay hifii prices, yet you only get midfi midrange. Sure Souns fabers perform well on simply jazz, you get some complex full jazz orchestra /classical orchestra going, the midrange in the Sonus fabers fall short vs midrange of a WBer. Sonus faber on a good amp, WEll my Seas single W18E001 + Millennium will perform equal to this mega priced Sonus faber. Seas W18 $300 + Mundorf 10uf Supreme @ $250 + Millennium @$350 + Mundorf 6 uf cap SESGO @ $300 X 2 = alotttt less than Sounus faber. Equal performance. Now a pair of WBers @ $550. Blows Seas’ away. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlOhiTpZCek&t=17s |
You see this is the problem when a speaker has a some sort of super tweeter. Sibilance If you can't hear the hisss Its going to grate on my nerves. + Multi midwoofers also creates issues. SF is trying to compete with Wilson's multi things. Tekton is also trying this mega multi speaker thing. Most drivers made by Scanspeak, Seas have serious flaws. And then we have these labs trying their hand at the idea that **More = better** Sorry ain't buying. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afVwwe9Gyz4 |
And then we have these labs trying their hand at the idea that **More = better** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ then again , sometimes more is better Music start 8:34 Diana Krall,, never sounded so good. It was only after the DLW4 was added in the mix, is when Diana Krall’s voice took on sensuous charms. Came alive. I was like,,**ohh OK so this is Diana Krall doing her magic** A single DLVX8 just somehow did not capture all Diana has to give. 5 drivers,, more can be better. + New developements soon, Feburary/March. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgWR6IbqOOg&t=12s |
I should have let Diana's sing on the 1st tract, The W4 opened up the magic of that song. Just mind blowing how sensuous Diana 's voice. + I am blabbing too much in that vid.. Here try this test Miles davis comes in at 1:41 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcjYiZztHgM&t=1s |
Now wait just one minute\ Are you saying Scan speak is superior to Seas.. How is this possible Both Midwoofers are 87db True Scanspeak madea very unique midwoofer with the Neo Dymium magnet, which indeed will out perform the Seas in dynamics. But then it all comes down to Carbon Fiber cone vs Magnesium. I'ma Mag fan. I serious doubt I'm going to like Carbon Fiber in upper mids with vocals/instruments classical muisc. This is where it come down to. Which do you prefer Seas Trym Or SonusFaber. I know which will have superior upper bass/lower midrange. The name Sonus Faber in big neon lights, flashing. Works every time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMQi4FgGuIc |
.not better than even the Seas
Well if we put the Thors back together and put 1 Thor on 1 channel, WBer (single 8) on the other. You might wish to vote for Thor. But that low sens will not work for my classical music. The WBer has no resonsnces at low/mid vol Its the only speaker that would work for my cup of tea. Not a panel, horn, stat, xover type. The sony cam does no justice to the WBer's performance. Music starts at 6:41. oh How I loved my Thors. Life like vocals, nice solid punch in the bass. clean smooth mids, no over hang resonances. no fatigue. Will give Sonus Faber 2 ways with the incredible Neo Dymium midwoofer from ScanSpeak, a good run for its money... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFr2NTqTT40 |
Guarneri's made Sterophiles front page. There you go, ck out price on last page My Frankensteins will not ever make Sterophile. So Sonus faber MUST BE superior. A speaker is ONLY great IF it makes Sterophile's front page NEWS. Got it. Not going to stop my The Speaker Project from completion. https://www.stereophile.com/content/sonus-faber-guarneri-tradition-loudspeaker |
the Sonus Faber sounds better
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Oh yeah, i see what you are saying Sonus Faber has a big name attached **they have to must sound better* than my Frankensteins.. ok got it. wait til The Speaker Project is complete. Gonna run a WBer 3 way with Beryllium neo tweeter. Lets see what Sonus Faber can do. The Guarneri has the super neo magnet. Thats all it has going for it. Ck out the price, ck out the web page. I never went in for commercial. My Thors came as a kit. Trust me the Guarneri's ain;t going to outshoot a Seas W18EX001 /Millennium. That Guarneri is so over priced. A guy in a Armani suit who has no sensibility to know what is high fidelity. https://www.sonusfaber.com/en/products/guarneri-tradition/ |
If you are referring to me, I don’t own an Armani suit. ~~~~~~~~The guy listening to the Guarneri hasa Gorgio Armani suit on. AS if that alone is convincing,,a guy with big bucks of course choses only the very best, = Sonus Fqaber What a bunch of snakeoil’ Trust me the Seas Thors if you are not aware are bench mark gold standard 2 ways. Dont believe me, go to Troel Gravesen’s web page. There he shares his opinions on Seas EXCEL speakers. The Excel midwoofers are pure neutral, with zero overhang resonances up to say 1800hz. 2khz its pushing the limit. Which is why i runa 10uf cap up to say 1600hz. Midwoofers such as Scan speak and Seas can’t compete witha good quality WBer. You no doubt have not yet heard a 1st class WBer so you have no idea what I am trying to say. My WBer will outshoot the Guarneri. Why? db sensitivity thats why. I’ve gone over this fact, tested and true, so many times here past few months. I can’t explain further. If we get 10 giolden ear aupdiophiles judgeing between my WBer system vs any Sonus Faber,,of course unanimous vote Sonus Faber, SF gets the Cigar My WBer system get the cigar butt, as a consolation prize. THE Industry must always wins. Stereophile Magazine says yes, this is so true. Out team must always win. Popular vote always wins, Consumerism, commercialism. I just posted 2 vids of my Thors and WBers, can’t you hear?? You may need better computer speakers. Sorry not at all impressed with any of the Sonus Faber models. Miles Davis? Any speaker can pull off Miles Davis. Exception The Bose which is not a speaker any hoot. |
Heard WBers Check Will not request lab name. Sennheiser HD-58X, the finest, Check vs my Walmart $9.99 computer speakers. So you can hear details I can't Regardless have you ever in your life heard a Seas W18EX/Millennium? Seas top drivers ya know they have to be musical. I wuld not trade in my WBer system for any speaker in the world. New developments for early 2022 planned. Regardless of your opinion, I believe my WBer system in its calss, is the finest speaker in the world. 2nd to none. I would need 5 honest audiophiles blind test, Seas, Sonus Faber and my WBer system. These judges would not be informed what speakers were being tested. All they know is speaker A, B , C. and we swap them around. and we do not tell them OK this is speaker A. All they do is write notes and given 3 test cds, determine which speaker they liked overall performance. If mine lose i will tell they they need to get their hearing cked. |
you wouldn't be able to handle the truth.😢
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yeah Jacks best line ever, The real truth is. most audiophiles /DIYers don't take measurements all that seriously. I just learned how to read a fq/db graph. Tells somethings but only hints at how the speaker ** might perform*. What is most important, Stereophile and Audiophiles never discuss ina speakers construct, TYPE MATERIAL OF CONE (underscore) , StereoP only makes a passing comment, So what do they KNOW. nada + Type magnet + size magnet + db sens. These 4 items are super critcal and determine how a speaker performs. Paper paper composite Carbon Fiber Aluminum Magnesium. The last material is the only cone I consider. Tweeters. well take your pick. Frankenstein can not be measured at Mr Carlson's lab. Won;'t fly,,, He;';ll take 1 look at it and say **what is THIS? some kind of joke**\ So lets not go there. Its a mix mash of sorts. And just wait til I add in a DLVX6. WBer 3 way + Thors. My hunch is, a winner. There is not one speaker at any price that even holds my interest. Especially not the Zu's. This ain't 1970 , this is 2121, soon 2022. The Acoustic Research/Advents were the bang of that era. Not any longer. The WBer has resurrected from the land of the dead. Frankensteins blood is flowing, he has breath. Have you ever in your life heard superior midrange? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrqv5nOjLuw |
No I said, emphatically I hate paper/carbon in MIDWOOFERs, = upper bass.low midrange. The 1929 Colotura has paper, but it is only performing midrange. As for its upper bass resonances I have no idea. Point is wayyy back in 1929 we had superior midrange/vocals. Life like vocals/mids. Measurments only tell half the story Audiophiles can't read graphs and such. The only thig they are interested in is how it sounds. My WBers have zero distortion = zero fatigue. This is a measurable fact. Midwoofers and tweeters are both flawed 1 in the upper range, the other in the lower range. The 2 can not meet with a seamless STRESS FREE 2khz-3khz bands. This 1khz band is like THE most critical bandwidth. This is a evident experienced fact. If you and others wish to argue and deny, feel free. |
Carlson's Lab, Youtube. Everyone knows Carlson Even IF he canceled my belief the widwoofer/tweeter thing has issues trying to voice the seamless critical 1800hz-3khz with only a modicum degree of success, It would not matter. I know what I hear. I ain't trying to push snakeoil here. Now I know why Troels always cringes when discussing the fq joint of the midwoofer and tweeter. This is the major flaw of a midwoofer/midtweeter. WBers suffer no handicaps in this area. This is the strong point. Cohesive, seamless liebear wide band voicing. There are no speakers like WBers. Not horns, Not stats/panels, Nada. WBers stand alone. These musical wonders don't need an apologist. They sing for themselves no defense necessary. |
Here ya go xover low sens speakers owners, Here is YOUR problem with your speakers. Tangled up mess. Note Troels suggestions, make sure to use high end (=$$$$$) caps. THese things ain't cheap, as i found out and only adds a tiny nuance to tweeters , but a nice size nuance to midwoofers in bass performance. With my WBers, I do not have to deal with this xover headache.\ You do. The type drivers Troel is refering to are very expensive. Just a pair of any of his midwoofers and tweets , equals ,, no make that MORE than a pair my WBers. Add all his midwoofers + tweets + xover components together then cabinets, wayyy out my budget. And if you are doing one of Troel's 3 way projects,,Now you are up to Wilson size prices. Not me. Budget cost for top high fidelity sound. Sonus Faber has a 2 way @ Sixteen G's. wowow weeeee http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Design_criteria.htm |
Look I am aware my comments will rock the audiophile world. The issues with xovers/midwoofers is longggg overdue for exposure and yet with understanding. The only way to high fidelity is via knowledge. Denials will only lead to regrets. Miles Davis cd will make any speaker seem to be high fidelity, Which is only a deception. Once we play complex swaing jazz, classical orchestra the glaring defects will be clearly heard all due to the failure in voicing correctly this super critcal 1800hz-3200hz band width. Ck out a classical instrument band width chart. This 1800hz-3200hz is like 70% of the musical imagery. Vocals as well. This band width has to be voiced super strong with power and authority. This is exactly the band width where WBers excell and shine. Basically a WBer is a midrange driver with emblishments on bass and highs. Thats all it is. Midrange speaker. These speakers absoluetly require a midwoofer and tweeter. A single wide band is going to only voice the midrange with high fidelity. If you need bass as we all demand then add any woofer of your choice provided it voices as neutral as the bass of the WBer. Again tweeters area Must. Add in any tweeter as all tweeters have no breakup /distortion above 3khz. Run it down to 5k hz is my recommendation. 8uf cap will take it down to 5khz. I recommend Mundorf EVO Silvergold or if you have the cash SESGO. There is a sonic nuance with the SESGO, But again those lil guys are like $250 EACH!!!!. On midwoofers Supreme Silver Oil 10uf will take midwoofer up to say 1600hz/1800hz. Now your WBer system has been taken to near TRUE bonifide FULL range, down to 40hz and up to the stars on the tweeter. If yopu want sub 40 hz, get any sub woofer ((YUCKKKYY) I HATE sub woofers. A stand alone WBer is mid-fidelity. Just as a xover type speaker is mid-fidelity w/o adding in a high end WBer. Both need each other. But the true Tenor/Sopranos on stage are the WBers, xover types only play a supporting casting roles. Note the word *Supporting** = necessary but not front and center importance. These findings support Bache Audio's spaeker systems. Although Bache prefers super tweeters, Which I don't. Risk of bringing in sibilance. |
invalid398 posts10-28-2021 10:31amMy WBers have zero distortion = zero fatigue. This is a measurable fact All speakers distort, they are the weakest link in the chain. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yep 100% agree, Read my post logged just above, In that post i explain all in clear unequivocal language. **Zero* = as best as ya gonna get. Almost un-measurable, not significant degree of coloration. Indeed, THE weakest link. As I clearly explain above. Jadis new KT170 intergrated via B&W will sound JUST like that, B&W sound. = highly colored *mid -fi* = no-fi = distortion/fatigue. |
Then why are you continuously defending and apologizing for them?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Let me get back to the OP's Q. which is Do speakers bring down a perfectly high fidelity amplification /source, down to **midfi*?? THe answer is yes. Wilson, Sonus Faber's, Zu's, Tektons are only offering more bass/highs Which is not hifi Our music is in the total midrange. Here in this super critical range is where a high fidelity speakers is distinguished from a mid-fidlity,, Mhich term is moot, There exists only high fidelity, If a speaker is not high fidelity, then it is not mid fidelity. The davidLouis yellow cone 6 is ok, but it is not high fidelity. Is it mid? Who cares, I am only interested in high. Mid does not interest me. For me, all tweeters are high fidelity But only down to 3khz. below that is all mid fidelity, Tweeters are flawed below 3k hz. same with Magnesium cone midwoofers, Great speakers below 1800hz. Above that they sound distorted = mid fi = garbage. This is the entire synopsis of my arguments for WBers. That this super duper critcal 2khz -3khz will be voiced HIGH fidelity via a high end WBer. \ xover type speakers are falwed in this tiny in size(1khz), but HUGE in music band width. If you want to deny this age old problem with xover speakers,, you really need to visit Troel Gravesen's web page. He oft mentuiions these issues, which i never quite understood til the other day. WBers stand alone from every other speaker design. WBers are Kings. |
Nope, wrong again. When implemented properly, they are no different than any other
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Its a known fact super tweeters/horn tweets have sibilance. I HATE super T's. The highs stick out like a sore thumb. I believe the BA super tweet is some sort of Fostex and is basically a compression horn. = No go. I prefer dome. Or my paper cone tweeter. Classical music does not need the 15khz=50khz super tweet range. |
I know you don't understand, but those two statements are in conflict with each other.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Obvioulsy if I stated *My WBer has no such weakness** Would undermine everything I am saying in support of WBers as not only the **Ideal* speaker, but really honestly, truthfull (no snakeoil) WBers is the speaker by choice, the ultimate listening experience. Zero, near zero, a miniscule factor, all mean same thing. xover low sens all have coloration, distortion, fatigue which is noticable. My 2 tech geeks love their vintage stacks. They hear no such coloration. They do not get fatigued by their Acoustic Research AR3's, 1973, Philips 2 ways, 10 inch woofer, Radio Shak Nova 7's. They love their Vintage stacks. There ya go, they can live with this paper sound. Soory I can't I've since moved on to magnesium in the Seas and some sort of wooden cone in the DavidLouis. The magnesium cones are extremely well behaved and have no resonances below 1800hz. The wood cone has excellent voice characterists. IOW neutral, which is what makes high fi, fatigue free listening. Follow? Look, I ain;t backing down. You are taking my ideas out of context, due to your stubborn refusal to accept the inherent limitations of xover style speakers, low db sens being the most obvious curse of this design. If Troels was on this discussion, he'd at least agree with some of my ideas. Whereas you simply enjoy twisting and distorting what I am GETTING at. Just answer the Q. Do xover types have critical issues in the 2khz-3khz band width? Its either Yes or No Not holding my breath for your answer thats for sure |
Back to the OP's all important Q. This topic is the #1 topic of importance in all Audiogon at the moment, In fact I'd say this discussion is THE SINGLE most critical Q in all Audiogon's history as a all thing Audio Discussion forum. So we are speaking of the only thing which makes a system True High Fidelity as defined by Philips Labs and that which lowers our systems to **mid fidelity** which really translates as anti-highfidelity .Which is really NOT fidelity and is what we all want to avoid. Seas Excel are high fidelity, There's no arguing that point. But at under 90db? nah, not my cup of tea, when there are WBers with same high fidelity at 90++ db sensitivity to be had. Jadis stellar amplification connected to a Bose will only result in Mid Fidelity = anti-fidelity -= junk sound. Speakers is THE component which determines whethera system is high fidelity or the OPPOSITE *mid* Fidelity. There is really only 2 camps. Is the speaker suffering resonances in the upper bass/low mids? If the answer is YES Then no amount of high end caps will fix the drivers handicaps, Its crippled, has laryngitis, thus the Tenors notes are coughy, the bass guitar /drums have upper bass fq/low mid fq's agitations. Here is where all the coloration/distortions can be found as the culprit. Midwoofers cone material. Also magnet size/type has some influences. Cone material is the main culprit to lousey upper bass/low midrange. Next we have a tiny VC tweeter attempting to sing low mids, under 2500hz. Its acceptable as per Troels testing. But a tweeter 2khz-3200hz vs a WBers' 2khz-3200hz. , Ridicuolous Tweeters have lower than 90db sens vs a WBers 90++ sensitivity. Complete total annihilation. Due to 2 factors WBer has a much larger voice coil/whizzer + higher sensitivity. Championship wrestling smackdown. This topic is The most important topi9c, ever on all Audiogon, past , present and future. Its ABOUT! D*** Time we get to the bottom of this issue. Lets pretend this problem does not exist. Lets play hide and seek. Lets ignore the facts. Sorry game over folks. The WBer team won, walkoff grand slam. Bottom 9th, 2 outs, 2 strikes. WBers reign as King Tenor Queen Soprano. No design can approach the WBers stellar performance. Not a horn, not a panel, not a ESL. And especially *that other design** can't approach a high end WBer. Caveat, we will need midwoofers/tweeters. |
whizzers allow for a wider soundstage. Rolloff? For sure, no big deal. There are 1000 tweeters out there that can sing quite well above 5khz. The only fq's I need from a high end WBer are 40hz-12khz. The 5khz-12khz from a WBer are much greater soundstage presence vs any tweeter's 5khz-12khz. But as for 10khz -20khz, here we absoluetly demand a tweeter for ambience, sheen. Over lapping all fq's brought ina unreal soundstage /presence to the music. Diana Krall never sounded so good as when I brought in the DavidLouis W4 to pad up the DLVX8. This is going further when i add in the DLVX6. xover type speakers A-Z have this critcal band width problems at 1800hz-3200hz. A WBers 3khz-5khz will always smash a tweets 3khz-5khz. Its the nature of the beast. back in 2002 I asked about all speaker designs, flaws and +'s. No one even came close to my discussion of the obvious flaws of the xover types vs the WBer types. Of course back then the 2 main WBers, Fostex, Lowther were not very good, not high fidelity. Now fast forward some 20 yrs, now we have these high fidelity WBers. Old technology born anew. The only commercial speaker that interests me are the Bache Audio Lab. Bache Audio Speakers will deliver the finest sound in all areas. Outshooting Wilson, Dali, Zu, Tekton, Vandersteen, Sonus Faber, Tannoy And all the other xover/ concentric designs. A-Z. WBers always win + midwoofer + tweeter. Cohesive , seamless, full rich, dynamic, life like vocals, presence, lowest coloration, distortion ( these characterists all depends on which midwoofer Bache Audio employs, as I only accept Magnesium, he employs some sort of paper, paper has some unwanted resonances) |
the opposite, in fact. If what you have shown on video is the best possible, the bar is much, much lower than I thought ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mahvishnu came through aweful I admit, was trying to get Billy Cobham drum sets on the vid. Sophie Milman, Diana Krall sounds quite accurate viia the Sony cam. I hear true fidelity in my uploads of both. Which is why I plant the mic right up to both Wbers, so you get a real impression of the quality of the speaker. Its there, you can say *i do not hear fidelity* Its there. All my cash went into upgrading my Thors, My teck says **well since you have new Mundorf $$$ xovers, lets ck your Millennium tweeters,,,ohh look one tweeter is off 1/2 ohm, better buy new ones,,** So I did, gave the **old* ones away and bought new @ $750....absoluely zero gain, old = new, = waste of $750. + waste of tweeter Mundorf xovers = big $ loss. Yeah I’m upset for that fiasco. This loss , 1 yr ago is holding back my WBer Speaker Project. I thought the M xovers + brand spankin new Millenniums = Super Thor, = WRONG, tiny minisclue gain in tweeter, but then nice gain in W18E001 bass punch. Dumped the Millenniums at $300 free ship, sold in 2!!!! hours ebay. Then boughta DavidLouis yelolow 6 at $471, , mistake there as its not *High* fidelity, mids are not up to the DLVX8. But hey its all part of The Speaker Experiement. But does further my understanding in how these WBers work. And how superior WBers are to any xover/low sensitivity type design. When I placed the cheap lousey Diatone 6 (from DavidLouis) on 1 channel, the **Super* Seas Thirs on the other, at that very moment the verdict was clear and decisive. Same day the Millennium's went for sale on Ebay and same day ordered the DL Yellow 6. This WBer experiment is in progress, And i do expect to see further gains. btw this topic is soon to become Audiogon's most frequently visisted and top viewed in just a matter of time,. Which is good. Here on this topic we finally will get things thrown under the old carpet out in the open. **Do I needa new amplifer? ..Do i need a better source?...Do I need better cables?...** No, no, no. What you need to bring the system to high fidelity is a WBer system. **can I keep what i have and add a WBer?* Yes and no, No if the midwoofer has resonance issues. And the tweet will need to be taken up to 5khz. So there's work to make it happen. At least i can salvage the W18E001's. + the added Mundorf Supreme Silver Oil 10uf was a winner. The midwoofer has to be on same level of neutrality as the WBer cone's voicing. I found the DLVX8 a bit superior to the Tang Band 2145, which Bache Audio employs, He prefers the Tang Band. Both were close, to the point, 6 of one half dozen the other. But Im giving the Cigar to the DavidLouis VX8. |
Sure some of my ideas have resulted in making some enemies around herd. To the point **I’m done with Audiogon, good bye...can’t take (handel?) mozartfan’s antics and blabberings...*..Others are upset that a few old timeers exited due to my pugnacious temper. Or is it perhaps , some of what I am saying might be close to the truth about what makes fidelity high and what makes speakers non-fidelity?? Very surprised that it was I who have highlighted these long standing issues inherent within xover designs. Where’s all the big time audiophiles with extensive knowledge about these things,, NOT chiming in?? Maybe perhaps the things I point out really can’t be defended against. That the center band width is all critical and that xovers only make feeble attempts to correct and butress the flaws of a midwoofer and tweeter. ?? WEll its late 2121. Why the delay of some 20 years of hushing up over this situation of xover designs. vs the success of the critical band width in Wide Band speakers. It makes me very happy that I made these realizations all on my own efforts. My speaker design is all my own. I was completely unaware of Bache Audio designs, or any other that combined drivers into a system. But I do believe I am the 1st audiophile to combine dual WBers into 1 system and further developments will have a WBer Trio System. If the WBer Trio works out, I know for a fact, no one else will have such a design. It was contact with my tech geek who is a electrical savant, which awakened the spirit of genius within me. + the pain and suffering of the Thor upgrade disaster Further giving the impulse to think outside the box. Being a iconoclast doesn’t hurt either. In order to make NEW discoveries (= leave old ideas behind) one must sail out on the open seas (Seals And Croft), chart new intercellar space, **To go where no man has gone before** (StarTrek) As Iconoclast I have no fear of breaking and smashing the temples of xover speakers, as though they were *the gods*. No hesitation whatsoever. No I do not make for a good welcomed guest at a audiophile club meeting. Whats Jack Nickleson's most famous notable line? |
There is no one going to upset my apple cart. I know what I have I know what i hear. I stand by my speaker design, thanks to some chinese tech geek who knows how to build one heck ofa speaker this way I do not have to break my bank acct over 2 german labs requests for purchase price. Thank heavens for that. This is one case where china stolen techology is a very good blessing. I stand by my speakers til death. Pity I’m much older now and so cherish every minute the music is playing. As I do not know when my time is up. Better late than never as they say. Hifi system. Dreams really can come true. |
