Hi Fi Tuning Supreme fuse-Burn In?


Hello,
I've gone through the Hi Fi Tuning line of fuses starting with their Silver and then on to the Classic Gold.
I recently purchased the the Supreme.
The Supreme does everything I hoped it would but as with anything in this crazy hobby, there's seems to be a trade-off.
I'm getting more clarity and air but the presentation seems to have an edge or sharpness to it.
If everything was just slightly more-should I say organic?-I'd be one happy man.
I have about 60 hours on them.
Will more time smooth things out?
The Gold's are definitely smoother but they lack the air and clarity the Supreme's provide.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

greh
Two comments. Probably more time is required with full signal to break in. HiFi Tuning fuses like all fuses are Directional so be sure to try both ways. 
Many thanks for the response geoffkait.
Yes, I've tried installing both ways and I'm confident I've got them in the right direction.
Thanks again!
It's unfortunate that Hifituning discontinued the Silver Star fuses.  It was the real champ in their line.  From speaking with others who have experience with the Supremes, they will leave you wanting compared to the discontinued silvers.  I was fortunate to scarf up some Silver Stars from Parts Connexion when they had a close-out sale on them.
Good Evening hifiman,

I tried the Silver's in my system and they were just a bit too bright for my taste-even more so than the Supremes.
In my system, the Supremes sound better.
Thanks for your input.

Yes, the Silverstar are made from pure silver. They are very fast and bright fuses. So, if you feel they sound nice, they are definitely well broken in.

The Supreme fuses are much better, in my opinion. They are much smoother and don’t have that super bright "silver" edge. They will still have a very fast sound and may start to push the upper mids/highs too much in some systems. 60 hours is not a whole lot of time. I would say run it in for 100 or even 200+ hours before making a final decision.

The old Hi-Fi Tuning Gold were not that great of a fuse. They were warm sounding and at the same time had somewhat of a fast attack. The problem was they sounded somewhat metallic and had a really bad "glare" to them.

There is a new Hi-Fi Tuning "Supreme Cu". They use pure copper wire and end-caps, with the end-caps being gold plated. I suspect they will be a much warmer sounding fuse like the Isoclean, but better.

@auxinput, 
Thanks for the input you've been putting in recently on the various threads concerning fuses. You do try a lot of them. 👍

With my Kinki EX-M1, I'm getting performance way beyond what my Marantz has and it has the Brimar fuse, which I found to be very neutral and extended. I've yet to check and see what type fuse came with the Kinki.

I think going even further in clarity and extension would be for naught and that a hint more body and weight would be worth a try.

Once my new ICs break in, I think I'll give that Supreme Cu fuse a try.

All the best,
Nonoise
@auxinput,

I have got variety of HiFi Tuning Fuses in my rig. I end up preferring the Supreme Cu fuses on my digital components over any other fuse I’ve tried. They lean towards organic and warmer sound. 

Unfortunately, the Supreme Cu are only made in smaller size.   

I agree with your assessment on Supreme Au/Ag. I am currently using one of them in my preamp, they have been my favorite so far. Interesting feedback on Hi-Fi Tuning Gold fuse, I will be trying one soon on my amp. 
Nothing like seconding a recommendation.
Thanks, @lalitk .

All the best,
Nonoise

Heh, interesting feedback.  I actually have found that the normal Hi-Fi Tuning "Supreme" fuse works the best in digital transports or anything that does a "digital only" circuit.  Silverstar is just way too fast/bright (same with Synergistic SR20).  Other fuses, such as Furutech/Isoclean, are just way too slow/warm for digital transports.  I use a dedicated linear power supply for my Lumagen Radiance video processor and the video was the cleanest with Supreme fuse.  Any other fuse would show grainy/dirty video.

As I have said before, my "go to" fuse is Furutech rhodium, but I will use Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme in some instances where a sound or circuit is too slow/warm.  I have found other instances where I need to use a very warm Isoclean or "Supreme Cu" (example would be a Bryston Amp).

I have not tried BLUE or BLACK or Audiomagic fuses.  BLUE is on my list for something to do when I run out of everything else.

Fuses are a tool to help tune a system.  There is no "best fuse".  Just like there is no "best amp", etc. etc.

Thanks everyone for your feedback-much appreciated!
auxinput, thanks for the advice on burn-in.
I'll let them run to the 200 hr. mark and see what happens.
Just a final observation....I am amazed how a fuse can affect the sound the way it does.
Both the Gold and Supreme sound a world better than the stock fuse in my Manley Stingray.
In other words, they greatly improved my enjoyment of listening to my system.
I know there's been a 1001 threads regarding fuses.
Don't know how they work or why they affect the sound the way they do.
But in my system it's absolutely a step forward to the promised land.
Thanks again everyone.
Hope your weekend's going well!

@greh - disclaiemr: there’s huge controversy in this industry on whether or not fuses make a difference, but since you can actually hear the difference, this doesn’t matter.

The fuse is just one more voltage transfer element in the audio chain, just like power cords and interconnects and speaker wire. Actually, the fuse should be looked at as an element of the power cord, since it usually transfers A/C current, or even possibly DC current in some situations, to feed the audio circuits with power. Just like different power cord metals/plating can influence the sound, the fuses also contribute.

Generally speaking, silver is the best electrical conductor and will transfer current lightening fast. However, in a lot of cases, this can cause negative effects that will present as pushed upper mids/highs, too bright / harsh sound, etc. Gold-plating is a very warm influence and rhodium is the most neutral (in my opinion).

The other impact is reducing the electrical resonance. The fuse is just a tiny wire, but it’s a strung tiny wire in air, usually surrounded by a glass tube. The glass tube will resonant from mechanical vibrations, which causes that thin wire to resonate like a guitar string. This introduces noise into the voltage and can cause instability of current, which reduces resolution and actually reduces bass and body in the sound.  It can also create bright/harsh sound.

The wire will actually have electrical resonance as it charges/discharges the current.

Upgraded fuses will work on reducing that electrical and mechanical resonance by doing multiple things. Using ceramic casing instead of glass. Sometimes winding the internal wire around a non-conductive center-pole. Putting non-resonant filler inside the fuse. Putting anti-resonant coating on the internal melt wire.

Finally, they use much better metals for the internal melt wire and end caps. Pure copper. Pure silver. Mundorf silver/gold mix (Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme). Rhodium, etc.

"I have not tried BLUE..."

auxinput, why not change that now. SR Blue fuses on sale right now, buy 2 get one free with 30 day return privilege. 

I have had many brands of fuses and found the Blue to sonically outperform them all in the most components. 

Like lalitk, I preferred the HiFi Tuning Cardas Cu (copper) fuse over the SR Black in my Aurender but the Blue is another matter. 

Dave

auxinput:
A very nice description of just some of the changes that can be made to improve the sound a fuse imparts on a piece of equipment. 

The main point to me is that all the power goes thru the fuse and different fuses can have a significant affect on a system's sound.


dlcockrum definitely brings up a good point mentioning the Synergistic Research Blue fuses. I also agree they have a very positive affect and with their being on sale and having a great return policy, this is a good time to give them a try. They have been a major upgrade in my systems.

David Pritchard
Like I said, since I haven't tried the BLUE fuses, I don't know what they are going do to the sound.  The only thing people have said is "they sound amazing", but they don't quantify what is being changed.  Since I know how the Furutech and Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme affects system and voltage, I will continue to use those fuses to tune my systems.  I still have several other issues and equipment I need to upgrade and take care of first before I start another journey on "what exactly is this BLUE fuse doing?" .lol.  I have not read the thousand plus posts "Blue" thread.
Why a premium fuse sounds substantially better then the stock steel- zinc fuses 
is easy to explain , just lookup metal  conductor  resistances 
the higher number the better, Copper,Silver veryclose 63-67 index
the stock  buzz fuse a 18 maybe . It is a high bottleneck like a 1/4 pipe vs a         1 inch pipe  all that low level hash is resistance the electrons can just move far more freely.
i give them a minimum of 100 hours to settle down ,and more refined up to
 Another 100 hours.
Oopsy Daisy, I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean electrons. We’ve had that chapter already. Electrons don’t really move. Besides you’ve got your vibration control and RFI/EMI stuff and you’ve even got some quantum stuff to consider in the case of HiFi Tuning Fuses.
@greh ,
I started out with Silver Stars with my Marantz and found the same thing as you: bright leading edge and a lack of body or weight in exchange. 

If you're tinkering with an amp, may I suggest the PADIS fuse? After trying a AHP fuse in my Kinki integrated, it had the same, if not more pronounced, effect as the HiFi Tuning fuse. Incredible intelligibility and air at the expense of body, weight, low end, etc. 

Discovering that the Kinki uses a 8A fuse, I looked at my old collection and put in a PADIS fuse (that I found a bit too dark in my Marantz) and lo and behold, it's a winning combination. 

The Kinki still has all the extension, air, detail and attack but now has more weight, body or gravitas, if you will. It's a more muscular presentation but not at the expense of anything else. Anything instrumental sounds all the more realistic and vocals have a more corporal element to them. 

Maybe I should have waited a little longer for it to break in or it could be it's more copasetic with the Kinki, but it's staying in for the foreseeable future. They're only $25 and it takes about 2 weeks to get them from Germany and they're fully compliant with any and all electrical ratings.

All the best,
Nonoise
Geoffy The Fuse Troll:
Electrons don’t really move. 
Hel-loo Geoffy The Fuse Troll! rpt Hel-loo Geoffy The Fuse Troll! Everyone except you knows that the motion of electrons is the definition of electicity. Wake up and smell the ☕️ Geoffy! Get on the reality train while you’re at it. Toot! Toot! 🚂 🚂 🚂 


@audioman58 

Nothing you posted makes any sense. If you knew how a CR power supply filter worked you'd know how silly your pipe analogy sounds. If the fuse doesn't have some resistance it can't sense current. 
What I stated is fact if you don’t understand that is not my fault 
try reading . The wire in a fuse is calibrated for its average they have various thicknesses . That is how they blow .a fuse wire 
will break when over heated past it’s ability, 
land my. Answer to resistance steel vs copperor silver  if you can read the metals resistance index clearly shows that a steelfuse has many times-more resistance then copper or silver.. thatis solelythe main reason the silver or copper fuse sound better. I owned a Audio store in the U.K for 10 years ,and Hifi tuning reps I spoke with in depth.
this is what bugs me some novice will tell me I am wrong ,and have no clue ,just their assumption . I have over 35 years in audio 
know a ton aboutmodding and treating  systems.
dont berate someone  because of your ignorance. My uncle is a 40 year mastertechnician and he was in agreement with the Higifi
tuning rep. If you have a different theory then state your case.
if not keep your opinions to your self.
This is to. kosst_amojan   Not even 1 purchase, or  sale
and on Audiogon for less then 1 year , and is telling a Veteran as myself 
over 35 year, owning a Audio store  for years, and worked with some of the most 
skilled Audio  engineers in the field .  To come out and belittle someone 
that you yourself have little to No experience or logic is just 
an ignorant statement . My answer on high end fuses  without question 
was Correct .  Look at the top fuses Silver  conductor, or Copper , vs steel 
They are far better conductors and 5x less resistance . And the conductor element blows - Wire melts when exceeding rated amperage which creates 
the short circuit disconnecting power to the circuit . There is the correct answer!!
Take a look here fellow Audiophiles here is the resistance index as I stated 
Silver and Copper top conductor ,look where zinc -steel is located on the chart
this is your fuse conductor element.

http://eddy-current.com/conductivity-of-metals-sorted-by-resistivity/


It appears, just going by what customers have reported, while HiFi Tuning fuses are extremely well made and contain very pure metals and pure solder, even quantum treatments, they are not (rpt not) always at the top of the food chain in terms of sound quality. Bouquet fuse makers all seem to have tricks up their sleeves. Some even build their fuses on a stock fuse, or so it would appear, which flies in the face of the pure metals argument. And bouquet fuses vary how they handle RFI/EMI and vibration. Furthermore, it appears “quality of current” plays some role, too, what with the directionality characteristic that all fuses exhibit.
Audioman58 even if you believe in magical 🧙‍♂️ fuse bs your first post makes no sense. 
You state “just lookup metal  conductor  resistances
the higher number the better, ”
 What you are referring to is conductivity, not resistance.  With resistance it is the opposite, the lower the number the better. 
 In addition if you understand power supplies there are many other problems with your analogy, which he was alluding to but I won’t get into. 
@geoffkait what is a bouquet fuse, is it made from flowers picked from far away lands with clouds of cotton candy and streams running with single malt whiskey?
If you install a Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse in a DC circuit of your tube power amplifier, you may end up "burning in" your entire amp ;-) .
@bdp24 - It SHOULD be easy to provide examples, of that ever happening.
analogluvr727 posts12-01-2018 8:02am@geoffkait what is a bouquet fuse, is it made from flowers picked from far away lands with clouds of cotton candy and streams running with single malt whiskey?

>>>>You can dream of Blue Bonnets, Angel Hair and Sweet William If it helps you. Why would I care?
Actually, resistance and conductivity are really addressing the same thing, you know, one being the inverse of the other. Come on, trolls, get with the program! 
@rodman99999 , Roger Modjeski received one of his Music Reference RM-9 amplifiers back for repair. Every stock fuse in the amp had been replaced by the amp’s owner with a Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse. Roger checked out the amp, discovered what had happened, then did some research into the fuses. He wrote up his findings on his AudioCircle Music Reference Forum (that info is still viewable on the Forum), but basically it was that the HFTF is not properly designed or constructed so as to be able to provide protection to an amp employing fuses on it’s output tubes, and is in fact incapable of doing so. A phone call to the American distributor, and then the design engineer in whatever country the fuses are made (Germany, I believe), revealed to Roger that neither are very well versed in basic fuse technology and engineering in terms of their use in tube hi-fi amplifiers. Well worth searching the AudioCircle MR Forum for Roger’s full report, for those interested.
WOW(one in a row)! Anyone that’s frequented this forum(and it’s fuse threads), is familiar with that story. If HI-FI Tuning’s fuses were responsible/culpable, where are the plethora of similar incidents, that would(necessarily) have followed? The Internet, and it’s various, "audiophile" sites, should be replete with them(especially, with all you Fuse Police looking to find fault). I’m just SUPPOSED to believe, that the one individual that blew up his amp, was using correctly rated fuses? Perhaps I’ve just met too many dishonest people, in my lifetime.
btw: I’ve had HI-FI Tuning’s fuses(Gold and now Supremes) in my Cary monoblocks’ mains and B+ circuits, for over 12 years, without a problem. That’s not counting when the occasional tube took a crap and the fuse did it’s job. Then again, that’s just my own(one person’s) experience, and- why should you take my word?.
@rodman99999, I see no problem with one having your experience with and opinion of the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuses AND reading what Roger has to say about them (not just on AudioCircle, but also in some thread here on Audiogon). But that’s just me ;-) . Unlike some of the other high end fuses, many of the HFTF are cheap enough to give a try without spending a fortune (relative to the cost of the amp itself).
Let’s look at the numbers, shall we? What are they, 10,000 or 20,000 to 1? Not very good odds for ye olde skeptic, yes? We get this sort of thing frequently. It disobeys the laws of science and electricity. All fuses are the same. It’s a fraud and a hoax. The usual.
@bdp24 - I try to apprise myself of as much information as available, whatever I’m considering. So- no problems at all, with reading as many OPINIONS as possible. One should remember, that these are all OPINIONS, however. I try to base my decisions on my own experimentation/experience, before drawing a conclusion(the scientific method). Too many try to proffer categorical statements, though, that they can’t establish/corroborate. To me, that’s not helpful, but- simply muddying the waters, for those seeking knowledge. Again- just my opinion.
Just to let everyone know, HI FI Tuning fuses cannot be used as tube fuses or in any DC application. They have very low breaking capacity and will and have damaged eqiupment. 

Their claims would make no sense and are an instult to a logical person. They put the wire in a teflon tube to reduce microphonics. If you can believe that then go right ahead.
@rodman99999  btw: I’ve had HI-FI Tuning’s fuses(Gold and now Supremes) in my Cary monoblocks’ mains and B+ circuits, for over 12 years, without a problem. That’s not counting when the occasional tube took a crap and the fuse did it’s job. Then again, that’s just my own(one person’s) experience, and- why should you take my word?.


It matters where the fuse is in the circuit. Please tell us where it is located, its rating and what it is breaking? Are you sure its in the DC HV path?
@audioman58  Take a look here fellow Audiophiles here is the resistance index as I stated
Silver and Copper top conductor ,look where zinc -steel is located on the chart this is your fuse conductor element.


I do not know of any fuses that use steel as an element. Do you?
From what HiFi Tuning says there is actually nothing about the construction of their fuses that could lead to any sort of bad outcome. Fuses are not really rocket science. You simply choose the wire for a given fuse based on whatever temperature you want the element to melt. It’s not complicated. On the other hand, there are certainly reasons not related to the fuse construction that could explain why fuses blow prematurely or whatever. E.g., operator error or the recommended amplifier fuse value was underestimated by the amp manufacturer. By the way, if the vibration damping tube in HiFi Tuning Fuses was actually a problem I’m pretty sure HiFi Tuning would have eliminated it by now. That’s just common sense. As I already mentioned, sand-filled fuses would constrain the plasma as much as a tube damper. Plus there are no issues will sand-filled fuses or liquid filled fuses or beeswax filled fuses, for that matter.

“HiFi Tuning has long been a fan of Germany’s legendary Mundorf capacitors. Revered in audiophile circles for creating gorgeous sounding no-compromise capacitors which grace some of the world’s best electronic designs, Mundorf capacitors are built using a special conductive material. Ultra-pure silver is impregnated with gold creating a material with gobs of resolution and golden warmth; glorious tonal color with truly outstanding dynamic shading, essentially the best of both gold and silver and absolutely no compromise. Each Supreme fuse uses this special material for its end-caps and conductive filament and pure silver solder connects everything. Inside the ceramic casing, Supreme fuses further distinguish themselves by receiving proprietary resonance and quantum treatments.”
@ramtubes: I thought I was pretty concise, when I stated, " I’ve had HI-FI Tuning’s fuses(Gold and now Supremes) in my Cary monoblocks’ mains and B+ circuits, for over 12 years, without a problem. That’s not counting when the occasional tube took a crap and the fuse did it’s job." My amp’s manual calls for a 3A slo-blo and a 500mA fast-blow(B+), YES- both specified 250V, which is what I’ve been installing. Do you just assume everyone you address is as incompetent, as your customer that blew up that ONE prized example?
I COULD also mention: when I auditioned a pair of Claus Bunge’s excellent Odyssey monoblocks, in my home, a few years back, I had occasion(with his permission) to remove the top cover of one. In the rail voltage(DC) fuse positions, lo and behold, were four HI-FI Tuning Golds. He’s apparently had the same success as I, with HI-FI Tuning fuses, in my modded Trans-Nova 9505, woofer amp’s output stage, rail voltage(DC) supplies.
It seems, quite a few that frequent this site, value the opinions of the Stereophile Magazine writers. Personally, I would think, they’d be somewhat conscientious, as much as they value testing things, before recommending a product/tweak, in their reviews and follow-ups. ie: https://www.stereophile.com/content/hifi-tuning-fuses and https://www.stereophile.com/content/hifi-tuning-fuse-follow-may-2012 It appears, no one(as of 2012) told them, about all those amps being destroyed. I’d further have to think, that highly experienced sellers(ie: Music Direct, VH Audio, Parts Connexion, The Cable Company, etc), would have been made aware(by now), were there an issue, and avoided selling anyone's, "high-end" fuses(and any possible, attendant liabilities). There again: Just my own observations/opinions.
Speaking of HiFi Tuning Fuses, crazy prices over on eBay for new HiFi Tuning Fuses, selected values and types. Check it out, Bubba!!
Those highly discounted, NEW Silver Stars and Classic Golds(from Burlington, Ontario), are probably being proffered by Parts Connexion.  
A snake oiler is gonna slither... 

I'm gonna believe Ramtubes over snake oilers who've never built a circuit. Gotta love the "I did a dumb thing and it worked" anecdotal evidence. 
So sayeth Mr. Purple Nose. 
@kosst- "I’m gonna believe Ramtubes over snake oilers who’ve never built a circuit."??? Ever heard the saying about making assumptions? Of course, in your case(apparently), that ship sailed, LONG ago!
ramtubes has been on the warpath trying to debunk fuses for at least ten years. Watch out, ramtubes take em scalp. You can’t debunk something that’s not bunk. 

Hi Guys

I'm not going to speak to the reliability of fuses because quite frankly I've never had one blown or cause damage to any products. Maybe that's me just being careful. However I have had experience in how they sound as well as how they change sound depending on a few mechanical adjustments and material choices. I've now done fuse swapping on over 10 amplifiers and at the end of the day (2016) yes they do sound different and yes they do sound different per amplifier. Directional? Yes they actually are directional. But, can be trained to go the other way, just like cables can (some cables).

If I were to give a caution it would be these, watch out for the upward shift in tone and keep your ear on the bottom octave as the wrong fuse will get phazy sounding. Also keep an eye on your stage, because when you make a fuse change you are also going to make a speaker placement change more then likely, or even cable change. "everything affects everything else".

Michael

michaelgreenaudio
Directional? Yes they actually are directional. But, can be trained to go the other way, just like cables can (some cables).

>>>>That’s quite ironic because that is what HiFi Tuning said for quite a while. But, HiFi Tuning eventually scrambled on board the fuse directionality train and for the last, I dunno, eight or ten years or so they’ve been marking their fuses with that cute little diode symbol 🔜 and have also published on their website the Data Sheets that support the theory of fuse directionality. Isoclean from Japan has always promoted their fuses as being directional.

It’s really not that difficult to confirm the directionality theory since all fuses, even stock fuses like Littelfuse and Bussman fuses, are directional. I tried this successfully with stock fuses quite some time ago - fuses that had been in the system for more than two years. So, I would not buy into the theory that wire established direction over time. Of course, many high end cable manufacturers mark their cables with directional arrows for a reason. No, I’m not talking about the shielding. It also explains why Audioquest’s new high power cords, just like all of their high end cables including HDMI cables are controlled for directionality.🔛