Room acoustics need attention. Hard surfaces and little furniture/treatment predict poor sound with any speakers.
BTW, did you audition the DTs before you bought them? How was that room arranged?
Kal |
Denon 3805 (120 Watt per channel) receiver....? I have to say that this could be your problem. I would think a speaker costing that much might need better than just a reciever to bring out it's possibilities. And yes room problems could be the culprit to, but do try changing the reciever for seperates or a better intergrate. |
Guys here will say, yes, they are crappy for music. I expect your choice of speakers to be criticized by the folks here. I use to have 7000's. You'll get no love in any of the audiophile forums for Def Tech speakers. They are widely considered HT speakers and poor for music. They are really HT speakers that can sound pretty good with music, but only if you have the right system. I did not have good luck getting mine to sound good just like you. I actually heard them sound much better in one of the dealers than they ever sounded in my room and the dealer was using a low-fi receiver. I was using much better gear to push mine. DT's do lack in the areas of detail, resolution and transparency. To get more favorable performance from your system, you are going to have to either move on to different speakers, or if you plan to continue with the 7001's, then you'll have to find different electronics and front end that will be a better match for them. In other words, you have to maximize the synergy of front end, and amp with them if you are determined to keep them. I used AZ Satori speaker wire with mine and that did help. It sounds like your current setup lacks synergy. If you're determined to go on with them, then I would find a dealer that has them, take in some of the music you like and see if they are performing well with that music at the dealers. If you determine you like how your music sounds with the 7001's at the dealer, then look to get the same gear the dealer is using. Your setup will have better synergy. Those speakers should sound fine with rock. Other genres of music would be more of a problem. Good luck. |
What are the other components? What is your budget to upgrade? |
The DT's lack in areas of detail, resolution and transparency. But, if you have good synergy with your amp the 7001's, and the front end, they can do well enough on music too. Aside from possible room issues and 1st reflections, it sounds like your current setup lacks synergy. I had the 7000's and my setup lacked synergy as well. I ended up selling them to another guy and he loves them. My first thought was that his system is totally different than mine and they perform better in a different setup because of better synergy. Although I never got mine to sound as good in my room as the dealer's pair sounded, I think if you add different electronics and front end, you will do much better sonically. Take some of your favorite music into a dealer and listen to their 7001's. If your music sounds good on the 7001's at the dealer, you may want to try buying the electronics and front end the dealer uses. Def Techs are really HT speakers as most will tell you, but they can do well enough with music, especially rock. Your room needs work with first reflections, but a lot of your problem sounds like a lack of system synergy. |
Yeah, it's the room/speaker interface. See my review of the Sumiko Master Set at:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rspkr&1197744079&read&keyw&zzsumiko
If you've ever been to a large audio show, you'll notice that most of the speakers, no matter their cost, sound like pure crap. This is usually due to the speaker set in the room.
The speakers must interface with the room and work in concert with each other, producing equal sound pressure levels, in phase and in time. If not properly set you'll sense intermodulation distortion as hardness and fatiguing glare, no matter how good the speaker is.
Find a Sumiko dealer and beg him to let you pay him to set up your speakers. (All Sonus Faber and Vienna Acoustic dealers in the USA are dealers of Sumiko products).
After the speakers are placed, you may or may not need a little room treatment, particularly if you have first-reflection issues from the floor or side walls. You won't know that until the speakers are in their optimal places.
Dave |
I would second the better amp and pre or better integrated amp. Also don't know if this is possible with your room but try to create a symetrical triangle with your speakers to the listening position. Meaning if the speaker are 9' apart the listening position should be 9' from both speaker and toe in speakers so they come right accross you shoulders. I use a laser pointer to do this. Try to treat the room some. Natural treatment work to, furniture, book shelf to name a few. How far away from the wall have yougot them? I some of the same problems when I was moving my placement around. those problems were experience most when to close to rear wall but also noticed some with to close to side wall. |
Sorry for stating the obvious......but I must agree with others, Defs won't give you "awesome" -at least not for music. You are faced with a very tough choice...........
ARE YOU READY TO MOVE ON ????? |
CJMBLM,
I have the 7004's and was initially driving them with a Yamaha receiver...For music they sounded just ok...I then added an Adcom amp and used the Yami as a pre..Huge difference in soundstage, clarity etc. Agree with others who say look at your room also.. The def- tech bipoles do not work well in corners and first reflections points should be treated appropriatly. Room treatments will make a big, big difference..Just and fyi...Have you checked the settings on your receiver. Make sure fronts are set to "large". Also, play with the volume setting for the subs. Inproper setting can muddy the sound "especially" with alot of reflective surfaces....Last but not least...The recommended breakin for your speakers is 60 hrs min. |
in this order...the room, the receiver, the speakers.... |
I agree, look at room acoustics first.
The Denon is a very nice receiver. However, it won't "blow" you away. See if you can borrow a nice 2 channel amp somewhere and use the pre-amp outs on the Denon. Very easy way to see if you need to go to seperates? You can still use the Denon for center and rear. |
I can bet on this one. I would say hook up your speaker's to an older Classe DR-9amp with some muscle and you will have a new speaker. You can run the Denon as a pre or buy an older tube unit or stay with Classe and get yourself a DR-5 preamp. I will say a better combo for the money can't be found. |
A tube source helped my older BP 7000s come to life. I had the same complaint when the BP7000 were new (1985) hooked up to the then top of the line Denon AVR 3600 and the next to the top of the line Sony DVD player. My CD's sounded flat and metallic with no real warmth I fondly remembered vinyl lps with. After years of equipment upgrades including first a DAC upgrade w/upsampler, later an ARCAM CD player nothing noticably improved. Over the years living room HT system evolved into a Sunfire Audio processor with an Odyssey Stratos (3 Channel model)and a top line Denon DVD player which gave GREAT movies sound but the music CD's never sounded as involving as my separate stereo only system. It was by chance I received a used Marantz 5 CD player as a gift and I hooked it up as a "convenience" piece for house parties and hooked connected it a Cal Audio Sigma I DAC (which was a spare as I upgraded to the II for my stereo only system). I'm absolutely amazed at this system's sound! I never expected the BP7000s to sound SO GOOD, about 95% of my stereo only (An all tubes, monoblock amps, VPI Scoutmaster turntable system). I enjoy the huge deep sound stage of CDs with warmth and bottom I had given up of ever expecting several years ago when I first got the BP 7000s. Accoustic instruments, jazz, and vocalists, sound warm and involving. Gold CDs and MFSL discs sparkle even more revealing greater musical detail and ambience. The Gold Discs of the Allman Brothers Live at the Fillmore East and Cannon Adderley's "Know What I Mean" sound wonderful. Given they are rear firing speakers, they produce a bigger enveloping sound than my stereo only system. In short, the Def Tech towers are capable of exceptional musical reproduction with their own dipole touch but it took me years of finding the right electronics and it was purely by chance I hit upon a winning combo. Try a tube source like a tube DAC for your digital or an even a tube FM turner and see if the sound improves to your liking. Though my Def Techs are over 15 years old, I have no interest in replacing them as my living room HT/second stereo speakers. Good luck. |
A decent DEQ will help with your room. They can be quite inexpensive and drastically improve sound. |
A tube source helped my older BP 7000s come to life. I had the same complaint when the BP7000 were new (1985) hooked up to the then top of the line Denon AVR 3600 and the next to the top of the line Sony DVD player Jwong (Answers) Jwong, the Def Tech BP 7000's were not released until 2003. |
I don't have any experience with the Def Tech BP7001s, but do have some experience with dipolar and bipolar speakers that might be applicable.
Briefly, the ear does not like early reflections but it does like late-arriving reflections. The ballpark transition zone is around 10 milliseconds. Sound travels a little over one foot per millisecond.
Cjmbl, you might try placing your Def Techs 5 or 6 feet out in front of the wall behind them, such that the reverberant energy from the rear-firing drivers begins to arrive after about 10 milliseconds of time delay (round trip distance of 10-12 feet). Even if room aesthetics prevent your leaving the speakers in this location, try it as an experiment to see if the problems you hear arise from the early onset of a lot of reverberant energy, or from something else.
A good dipole or bipole can sound rich and lifelike when set up appropriately, but with a significantly sub-optimal setup they will not sound as good as an equivalent monopole.
Duke
dealer/manufacturer |
Once more I find myself wholeheartedly agreeing with Duke...as usual he has hit the nail on the head.
Speakers that radiate in a rearward pattern in the mid and high frequencies will produce a claustrophobic or cluttered sound when placed up against a wall.
Contrary to beliefs possibly propagated by Dr Bose...near reflections within 10 msecs are best avoided if you want good imaging and a clear sound (although in my experience 5 to 7 msecs is enough to make a dramatic improvement provided the reflections are at least 6 db lower). If you can't avoid early reflections then reduce them to at least 10 db SPL lower with diffusion/absorption.
Given most domestic requirements mean that speakers are close to a wall it is indeed surprising that dipoles and open back panels are so popular.... |
I know many of these responses are old, but I recently did some mods to my Definitive Technology BP-7001's (June, 2023), which made a remarkable difference. Many folks have said these speakers are great for Home Theatre multi-channel applications, BUT NOT for stereo listening applications. Many have complained that for stereo listening, these speakers are harsh sounding and also have a hollow/echo type sound to them. In my opinion, this is caused due to the fact that these are bi-polar speakers......it is the reflected sound from the rear speakers that causes these sound producing problems. I have found for Home Theatre multi-channel applications they sound great. I have modified my BP-7001's but installing 3 round toggle switches under the top caps on these speakers. Each switch allows me to turn off the 2 mid range speakers and the 1 tweeter speaker on the back side. When playing stereo music now, those mentioned problems listed above have completely disappeared. I now get a nice sweet spot, without the sound from the front firing speakers getting interference from the rear speakers, when I manually turn all of the 6 toggle switches off. Now when I listen to stereo sound/music all 6 switches are off........for Home Theatre listening I turn all 6 switches on. I got the best of both listening worlds now......bi-polar and non-bi-polar. These now sound amazing and incredible for stereo sound. As a side note, I did replace the harsh sounding aluminum tweeters with some Scan Seek silk dome tweeter speakers........made the sound more smooth and pleasant to the ears. If I could attach some photos of the tops of my speakers, I would, but don't see a way to do that. After my modifications, I have no need to purchase any other speakers. I'm loving these speakers more than ever now.
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I know many of these responses are old, but I recently did some mods to my Definitive Technology BP-7001's (June, 2023), which made a remarkable difference. Many folks have said these speakers are great for Home Theatre multi-channel applications, BUT, NOT for stereo listening applications. Many have complained that for 2 channel stereo listening, these speakers are harsh sounding and also have a hollow/echo type sound to them. In my opinion, this is caused due to the fact that these are bi-polar speakers......it is the reflected sound from the rear speakers that causes these sound producing problems. I have found for Home Theatre multi-channel applications they sound great. I have modified my BP-7001's by installing 3 round toggle switches under the top caps on these speakers. Each switch allows me to turn off the 2 mid range speakers and the 1 tweeter speaker on the back side. When playing 2 channel stereo music now, those mentioned problems listed above have completely disappeared. I now get a nice sweet spot, without the sound from the front firing speakers getting interference from the rear speakers, when I manually turn all of the 6 toggle switches off. Now when I listen to 2 channel stereo sound music, all 6 switches are off........for Home Theatre listening I turn all 6 switches on. I got the best of both listening worlds now......bi-polar and non-bi-polar. These now sound amazing and incredible for stereo sound. As a side note, I did replace the harsh sounding aluminum tweeters with some Scan Seek silk dome tweeter speakers........made the sound more smooth and pleasant to the ears. If I could attach some photos of the tops of my speakers, I would, but don't see a way to do that. After my modifications, I have no need to purchase any other speakers. I'm loving these speakers more than ever now.
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