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Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman

Showing 8 responses by millercarbon

millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
Mine is used for both. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 As impressive as it is with music, where it provides truly superb quality bass, its maybe even more impressive with movies because they tend to have a lot more powerful earth-shattering deep bass. Either way its not like you do anything different one for the other. Set it up for one, perfect for the other. 

Its important to keep in mind that while there is a Swarm subwoofer system sold by Audiokinesis, in many cases what people (like me just now) mean is the generic Distributed Bass Array or DBA. That's what I have, a 5 sub DBA. 

Since you already have one sub you are almost exactly where I was 2 years ago when I decided to build my DBA. All you do is add subs! The more the better, and the more powerful the better. But the vast majority of what you get comes more from having multiple subs than from what any of those subs happen to be. The more and more powerful they are simply allows you to run each one at a lower level, giving you greater headroom and extension. You could for example add three Tekton 4-10s and have as much room shaking chest pounding bass as you can handle.
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
As I've said elsewhere, if only everyone simply believed in education and experience sharing without attacks or the need for everyone to agree on various opinions/perspectives the site would be a lot more useful (and sustainable).


Imagine there's no Heaven. Its easy if you try. No hell below us, above us only sky. Imagine all the people living for today.

Like, you know, a cow. Moo.
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
There's something else, however, that's difficult for me to wrap my mind around. This forum insists on the importance of every detail, the importance of micromanaging every cable terminal and power source. Which is better for speaker cable elevation, cedar blocks or maple blocks? Where does one get just the right marble or granite for a speaker base? What color interconnects are the most transparent? (Blue ... no ... yellowwwwwwww!)

As me your questions OP, I am not afraid! 

You gest (I hope) but these are all serious questions. Well maybe not the color. But all the other stuff, yes it matters. Not just saying that. Actually tried and compared different wood, elevators, etc.  

And yet the discussion of multiple-sub array contains almost none of this fastidiousness. It's what academics would call a different discourse. It's by far the most casual approach to sound out here: mix and match inexpensive subs. What brand of subs? It doesn't really matter. What size? Also doesn't really matter. Should they be the same? Maybe, but it doesn't really matter. Where placed? It doesn't matter nearly as much as a single or pair. Connections, watts, power source? Doesn't really matter, relatively speaking.

My point is that, as an outsider to these technologies, the tenor of the discussion is completely different.
Good, grasshopper!

https://youtu.be/gbNCBVzPYak?t=56

There's two main reasons for this. One being the advantages of DBA are so overwhelming they tend to swamp the usual differences between subs. Things like size and power do matter. Its much better to have four really powerful high quality subs than four puny little cheap ones. Just don't be surprised if those four little ones kick butt on one big one that is much more expensive and powerful, even if it measures better. Its still just one. 

The other main reason is human beings simply do not hear very low the same as very high. Midrange and treble we localize to within a fraction of an inch. 30 Hz we have no idea whatsoever where its coming from. High frequencies we hear instantly. Low bass, less than a full wave and we don't hear anything at all. Finally there's the equal loudness thing. Really low bass doesn't even register until its much louder than the levels at which we can clearly hear midrange.  

Add all these up and it pretty well answers all your questions. It also answers the question of why its not more widely adopted. DBA shines a light on the fact our hearing is completely different with low frequencies than high. Therefore our system setup must take these two widely diverging aspects into account. Its a bit of a mental challenge. This may be the time to switch to a more modern movie metaphor and perform a Jedi mind trick.
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
This is actually an excellent summation

FIFY.

There is no "if" and, or but. Its excellent, period.

You're wrong about the 2 seats. The problem with fewer subs, yes you can get good bass at one or two places- but only by having too much elsewhere. The excess energy in these areas as it dissipates muddies the bass everywhere in the room. This is one reason DBA bass is so clean and articulate.

You're wrong about the expense. DBA is actually the cheapest most cost effective solution. Yes you can spend a lot but the beauty of it is you can have truly awesome bass easily and for under $3k.

There's nothing snooty, hilarious, or sad about it. Your response, I mean. Just another failed put-down. Tiresome, is what I'd call it.
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
Your room is so close to mine-  within about a foot each way- and your DBA so similar to mine, we should have virtually the same high quality bass. Anyway, I can hardly imagine how bass traps would be an improvement.
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
What I like about the above quotes, mitch2 took the time to find them, read them, think enough to understand what might be of particular value, then cut and paste here with a link. 

Sweet.
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
atmasphere nailed it. But at this point anyone shouting fix the room or ya need bass "management" (whatever that is) is simply not paying attention. Its like there's still guys saying cables are tone controls, fuses don't make any difference, etc. Its not just a river in Egypt, guys. 

But we know, the OP said we know, we aren't looking for that. What we're looking for is why sellers keep pushing the same old same old when we all know it doesn't work. And I've given one answer. But there's another even worse one: Buyers get the sellers they deserve. 

Anyone wondering why sellers aren't working harder to inform and educate and sell what actually works need look no further than this thread. Because here we have a whole bunch of supposedly dedicated audiophiles presented with the most iron clad fool-proof solution in all of audio, and most of them are like "lalalalala I don't hear you fix the room lalalala bass management lalalalal REL... I'm not listening."  

Irrefutable evidence, meet immovable opinion. That's why they aren't selling what actually works. Its just too darn hard getting audiophiles to actually think and try something new. 

millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
Duke has a really good post somewhere that addresses a lot of these same questions. Easiest way to find it is just look through all posts by audiokinesis.

For myself, I think you answered your own question.
why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm?
This is indeed the million dollar question. Surely no one with the room, who takes the time to compare, would ever choose anything else. No one has. No one ever will. The difference is so night and day that Duke had one customer with a $30k subwoofer budget decide to buy the Swarm. Not even a $30k sub can match a $3k Swarm.

So there’s your answer. They make a whole lot more money selling people on the idea of one sub being the answer. If you take the cynical approach, which I do, then it would be even dumber for them to sell a DBA. Because since we all know no one or two subs can ever touch a DBA, then not only do the high-end dealers make money selling you the one sub that can’t work, they get to sell you another. And another. And another. And EQ. And more amps. And room treatments.

There’s simply way more money to be made selling audiophiles things that don’t work than things that do.

Especially if they first sell you on a good story. Which since you already know DBA works, and yet is not widely adopted, then you know how good they are at selling audiophiles on stories.

And that’s the real answer to your question. Why would anyone buy a sub? They don’t. They buy a story.
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