Timlub made by far the most intelligent post here. It is all about implementation. In terms of belt drive - try and find a Townshend Elite Rock. I have one, although I have added an acrylic platter, origin live belt, DPS motor/pod, and a custom built two phase power supply. I think that the trough on the Townshend is perhaps one of the most fundamentally brilliant things I have encountered ever on a turntable. I personally have hear d a few Townshend Decks and all are cut from the same cloth and are at times CD like in regards to neutrality, but they are never cold.
I would go for a Denon DP59L. Great deck that is easy to set up and has a sound quality that is hard to compete with. The build quality is amazing and they are build to last. Another great option is a Kenwood 7010 or 990, which are basically the same decks but with a different look. Both the Denon and Kenwood do fine on wow and flutter. As mentioned before, it all depends on how you set your table up. A cart that sounds amazing on one table can be less impressive on the other.
aeinstein, you don’t care if it’s plastic or wood? Do you also don’t care if it’s direct drive or belt? Black or red? s-shaped tonearm or straight ? Spikes or pucks? Heavy or light? Motor in or motor out? Dust cover or not?
Hope you get the drift of where I’m getting at.
The fact that YOU don’t care about the inclusion of a cartrige in a turntable, and YOUR indifference to wood or plastic has no relation to the merits of a turntable, be it that nice Marantz TT-15 or any other ’table for that matter.
You asked for suggestions up to $ 1,600. I still think that Marantz TT-15 is a steal for the money. So you don't want the included cartrige? You could easily sell it and get your own. Let's suppose you can quickly get 400.00 for it, if purchased used, that TT will end up costing you well under 1K.....and I bet you never heard one !
The PLX-1000 was reviewed in Stereophile AFTER ADJUSTING ITS LOOSE TONEARM BEARINGS. Mine came with loose tonearm bearings too, and after being advised by the vendor not to attempt adjustment, I sent it back. Too bad, because in other respects, it seemed solid.
The Marantz TT-15 is an excellent-sounding table. Its weakness is the motor, IME. But it has a 5-year warranty.
I'll just mention Nottingham Spacedeck/Spacearm because no-one has. If you can find it used. I doubt you could do better for this kind of money, only different. Stock record mat should be replaced. The arm works well with a wide variety of not heavy cartridges. I am not going to let mine go unless I can afford something like top of the line Pear Audio, or maybe even if I can. And with minimal proper care it should last forever, with the exception of the motor, which is very reliable.
Sometimes things that sound like an excellent proposition are not.....
I had a friend, who is now a dealer......purchase a Marantz TT15 on my recommendation, because on paper, it seemed a killer value.....I think he paid about 1290.00 new for it.....
He owned it for about a month. It was one of the worst turntables I have ever heard......and I've heard 10s of dozens......
Very muted, motor noise....wasn't ideal, but overall it was lack of dynamics that made it a boring table overall......Clearaudio pedigree isn't worth anything.......many of the lower cost Clearaudio tables are also rather anemic.....
If I were shopping in this range, I would adjust your price range, to between a grand and two grand.....and if you select one in the upper range, just save up some more money, instead of buying it over again and spending more......
I would consider the brand new Oracle Origine.....the dealer friend of mine who had the TT15 has one that he ordered when I ordered my Delphi MK VI and he thinks it is a fantastic table for only 2 grand list and that is with an ortofon cartridge...
Other than that, I would try to find a gently used VPI Classic 1. These can routinely be had for well under 2k and they obliterate tables at twice the price.......I've owned several VPI tables and you'll find them to be very unfinicky and they will last a lot of years with good support.....
I know I've read better reviews somewhere, but I can't find them at the moment. If you can find a seller close enough that shipping doesn't kill the deal, good luck. http://totallywired.co.nz/wax_engine.html
Well, this won't make your choice any easier: New VPI Cliffwood table at $900. (and the Scout Jr. is being blown out at $1299 most places as it's discontinued).
Make your life easier and choose a Technics 1600/1700/1900 series direct drive or Dual 1200 series. Get a Yamaha preamplifier from the 80s and you'll still have some money left for a decent cartridge. Old cartridge body and new JICO stylus if you can't find the original. You really don't want to be messing with dropping the needle and picking up the arm every 20 mins or so. Enjoy the music and the sound as it was intended to be!
I have a new ProJect 2Experience SB turntable with a blue point MC cartridge which is in your price range around 1400-1500 and it looks great - comes with a cover as well. Depends what kind of sound you like to listen to and this combination is more mellow. Very happy with it. Having bought this - I might go one step up turntable from this model- or try a slightly more revealing cartridge but it is very musical and pleasing and with older records - it doesn't highlight their condition with tons of pops etc.
I don't know where you're finding used 1200s, but the only ones I ever see going for less than $400 look like they fell out of a gig van a few dozen times.
I have a Technics SP25 for sale and it uses SL1200 as its base.... When you mod these tables, you can take a look at each piece of the table killing resonances, improving wiring & when re assembling, aligning everything correctly and really bolting things down for solidity...
In all Technics line of auidiophile turntables i like the SP-20 as it's simply the same size as the SP-10mk2, but the SP-20 has its unique wrinkle black finish. I took a picture of my SP-20. In my opinion this is the way to go if the SP-10mk2 is too expensive. I have both in my collection, but this wrinkle black finish of the SP-20 is so attractive when paired with the Technics EPA-100 mk2 Boron tonearm.
Not sure what to think about the latest $4000 Technics TT, but the older 1200’s, 1300’s, 1400’s, are nothing but junk. Pure crap in my estimation. Simply because I had owned this stuff years ago. Probably good enough for DJ’s or pro users with tin ears. not for serious audiophiles...
. They must be upgraded because it was mass production unit for affordable price. I think after fully rewiring (discovery wire) and with new feets (isonoe), with fluid damper for tonearm and with vintage MM cartridges (like the Technics 205c mk4) the SL1200/1210mk2 is not so bad. But in my opinion it’s better to invest to the SP10mk2 from the start (to pass on expensive tonearm upgrade and external power supply for SL1200/1210 mk2). The new one from Technics lose its charm for me because of the size and shape of the SL1200mk3D, and being superior in this design, i think, it would be much better if they would follow the SP10mk2 and SP10mk3 design instead of the most popular SL1200mk3D (IMO). It’s funny that audiophiles now should play with GAE for $4000, that looks exactly like the polished classic SL1200mk3D (always described by audiophiles like "nothing but junk").
OP, the most expensive Rega table that you can afford is the correct answer. If you value correct full body sound. My favorite turntable at any price is the Michell Gyro SE however, with a Rega tonearm.
I think we are off subject for the op, but I do believe that the modded Technics are better than the Pioneer, I've never opened a Pioneer, but I've been in many Technics.... As I mentioned earlier, I have a Technics SP25 for sale and it uses SL1200 as its base.... When you mod these tables, you can take a look at each piece of the table killing resonances, improving wiring & when re assembling, aligning everything correctly and really bolting things down for solidity... So, yes a modded Technics is no doubt better than the Pioneer that is proven to have a few quirks.... However, I am very curious at what I might end up with if I dismantled the Pioneer and took a look at what could be done. The Pioneer may have a bearing issue that needs to be checked on every table, but I've looked this table over and it is no slouch. Not sure that this helps at all, but.....
Not sure what to think about the latest $4000 Technics TT, but the older 1200's, 1300's, 1400's, are nothing but junk. Pure crap in my estimation. Simply because I had owned this stuff years ago. Probably good enough for DJ's or pro users with tin ears. not for serious audiophiles....
Everytime someone mentions a PLX-1000 on these threads, the Technics owner brigade feels the need to sling false claims about these tables, like you did regarding the mass. They also feel the need to slander the Pioneer on a purely subjective basis, claiming the Technics is better without citing facts or reasons. It’s like you Technics owners can’t stomach the existence of this $699 look-alike table, as though it’s a threat to your manhood.
It’s hard to resist when many manufacturers just copy the classic SL1200mk2 design with minor changes. The reson they do that is a pro market demand, when nobody want to use anything different that classic SL1210mk2 (mk3D or similar) in the clubs, radiostations etc. This is just a pro tool, absolutely no needs for higher torque. But the weak points of Sl12100mk2 is the feets, wiring and tonearm. Therefore people who cares about the sound quality uses Isonoe Feets, Cardas or Discovery Wires, Fluid Dampers for stock tonearm, some people use external power supply, some people evern replace the stock tonearm for something better. The upgraded SL1200mk2 is far better than stock Pioneer PLX-1000 which is OK turntable (i did tried it). As i said earlier the Pioneer turntables like the PL-70LII or their fabulous P-3 are amazing, but they don’t want to make those as the Pioneer nowadays makes stuff for DJs only (pro market only). And you can ask yourself why each manufacturer on pro market just copy Technics design? Because this is a standard and everybody happy about the standard, that’s why it is a standard. Used SL1200mk2 (silver) or SL1210mk2 (back) can be purchased for $300 everyday and all replacement parts are available for peanuts like for the Ford car.
It’s a honor to be a Technics owner brigade, but my favorite turntable is Luxman PD-444.
Get this with a pre-mounted Hana E cartridge. They offer low and high output, so get whats best for your phonostage. A very nice plug and play system. Set up time ten minutes tops.
No one has mentioned the sloppy tonearm bearings on the Plx1000 which seems to be the hallmark of decks made by Hanpin. It was noted in the Stereophile review and I read the same thing in some reviews on Amazon, Vinylengine, etc. So, any owners experience this issue?
Many people prefer the looks of the Pioneer. Personally, I think the black angel hair finish of the plinth is much more attractive than the Technics Silver. The tonearm also has a more attractive finish. I'm not a DJ, however, I would think DJs might prefer the superior torque (another fact) ability of the Pioneer...maybe not.
Also, where can you get a like-new SL1200 for $699? Some people like the idea of having a warranty and clean cosmetics.
Everytime someone mentions a PLX-1000 on these threads, the Technics owner brigade feels the need to sling false claims about these tables, like you did regarding the mass. They also feel the need to slander the Pioneer on a purely subjective basis, claiming the Technics is better without citing facts or reasons. It's like you Technics owners can't stomach the existence of this $699 look-alike table, as though it's a threat to your manhood. It's funny though, I never see Pioneer owners getting bent out of shape when someone recommends a Technics.
@helomech every clone of SL1200mk2 ever made is sh**t (IMO), sorry. I use a pair of SL1200mk2 for more than 20 years as a pro, and my feelings of using Pioneer is slightly different, nothing can beat the SL1200mk2 in its class, no matter the heavier the deck itself or not, this is the only turntable in the history that you can find in any club - this is a working horse with some weakness (you’re right about it), but it can be easily fixed with a little investment (the full rewire is the easiest thing to do and number 1 in upgrade list for this deck).
I have used that new Pioneer and it’s ok for professional use and it was made for professional use to replace discontinued SL1200 series for deejays, but it is a clone of the Technics standard and i prefer the upgraded original SL1200mk2 if we’re talking about cheap DD turntables. I also have SP20, SP10mk2 etc.
It would be much better if the Pioneer would release a new version of their own design (Pioneer PL-70 II) instead a clone (in terms of design) of the SL1200mk2. Pioneer is no longer an audiophile brand, it’s pro oriented company. The vintage Pioneer PL-70 II is a properly designed turntable, not their top of the line model, but looks very similal to the best they have ever made. I would support this 70s design instead of the bad clones of the Technics design everyone tried to copy nowadays.
I can’t agree that SL1200 is a cheaper feeling deck than new Pioneer, i think the Pioneer is a cheaper feeling deck, but maybe you’re not get used to the Technics as i am during the 20 years of using them on the radiostations, clubs and at home. This Pioneer made for the next generation, but not for those who grew up with SL1200mk2 like myself. There are many other vintage turntables much better than Sl1200mk2 and much better than new Pioneer. I just don’t like the design of the 99% new turntables, i would "kill" those designers because they can’t learn from the classics, they just makes ugly decks.
The Pioneer PLX-1000 weighs more than a Technics SL1200. Get your facts straight. I've handled both and if anything, the Technics is the cheaper feeling deck, especially with its lame cables.
As do I and its build like a tank. Going back 50 years I've owned at least a hundred turntables and set up hundreds more , I run it with a Grado Sonata and it sings like a lark !
ALSO it is VERY easy to set up and set up to perfection which is a lot more important that what its made of or anything else for that matter. Can adjust VTA on the fly by ear which no Linn or Rega etc, , I've owned several of both , can do .
FWIW, I recently purchased the Pioneer PLX 1000. Despite what someone has claimed, it is by no means a "cheap, plastic" TT. It's a beast, weighing over 30 lbs. I just installed a Hana SL cart and I'm getting amazing sound out of this system. All in, with tax for both TT and cart - under $1600. Read Herb Reichert's Stereophile review on the PLX 1000 on the Stereophile website. He calls it the best TT under $2,000.
There is a "new kid on the block," actually 2. From a great analog designer/engineer. Check out George Merrill's offerings: The PolyTable http://hifigem.com/polytable.html and the PolyTable Super 12 http://hifigem.com/PolyTableSUPER12.html Each of these tables achieves rotational accuracy that is unmatched by anything else. Here is the link to HiFiGem home page: http://hifigem.com/ Check this out, seriously more bang for your buck than anything else.
aeinstein: your comment ’’Marantz TT15 - merely a rebadged Clearaudio turntable with an $800 cartridge’’ you make it sound like the rebadged status is a negative thing or something not to be taken seriously.
In this case, Marantz does not hide the made in Germany Clearaudio pedigree, and this ’’rebadging’’ actually is a nice upgrade from Clearaudio’s own Emotion turntable. Marantz specified better ’’feet’’, a thicker acrylic platter, great styling and included a version of Clearaudio’s very nice Satisfy arm, I mean this arm is a beauty and sells by itself for a good sum.
Not saying the Marantz is the be all - end all, but for the price with this level of jewelry, (even the aircraft acrylic used is incredible) it is a screaming deal and all the turntable many will ever need.
And stick a $ 10.00 micro IKEA lamp behind the platter, and watch the glow....as I said, a no-brainer and quite a conversation piece.
Regas, Clearaudio and VPI are of course great buys in this price range.
Wow, alot of opinion above, not backed by facts.... I have heard excellent versions of Belt and Direct Drive. As a dealer, I have sat in front of multiple Walker, Oracle and Technics Tables. All 3 of these set up correctly can be very satisfying. The is no hard core proof that overall, either direct drive or belt drive is better.... Then I posted that I am selling the SP25.. another post is all about, you must purchase an SP20... The Best Technics tables were the SP10mk II and SP10mk III.... The SL1200 pro table is what put Technics in the record books for tables. It has its flaws for audiophiles, but it is highly modifiable and done correctly is very nice sounding, Its arm is its weakness...Now what about The SP15, The SP20 and SP25.... The SP 15 Is more or less a studio version of the original SP10, The SP20, Is a Japanese Low end issue of a SP10MkII. It is very much compatible to the SP15 and SP25..... The SP25 was made for broadcast. It fits the same Plinth as the others, but uses the motor assembly of the SL1200 pro table...All 3 of these are direct drive quartz lock. I have found that proper damping along with a good arm and cable, all 3 of these after good mods, outperformed a standard SP 10 and were closer to the MKII or MKIII versions... My SP25 that I have listed is flat out excellent at its price range. Also, the old Oracle tables were also really nice tables when set up correctly.
Cheap belt-drive Rega and Pioneer PLX-1000 DD (made for dj use) are total junk sh**t compared to vintage direct drive decks IMO. When i touched that Pioneer PLX-1000 it is not even the SL1200, but a plastic toy. If someone prefer those plastic lightweight decks over the "real" vintage machines then i don’t know what to say. This is exactly what’s going on in the Hi-End business nowadays when the products are overpriced and ugly or cheaper, but looks like a plastic toys and still ugly. The best decks were designed in the 70s and 80s, they are reasonably priced today compared to modern Hi-End. I’m a big fan of Luxman PD-444 and Technics SP10mk2, to beat those decks i will have to invest astronomical amount of money that i would rather spend of cartridges and tonearms. And i don’t know any other DD turntables designed better than Luxman PD-444 by Micro Seiki to use with 2 tonearms! It’s a State Of The Art machines.
I think for $1600 the best way to go is: Technics SP20, Victor TT-71 or similar Denon DD with custom made plinth paired with vintage tonearms like Victor UA-7045 or Luxman TA-1 (made by Micro Seiki) and MM cartridges.
A few years ago, I purchased a Marantz TT-15S1. It is really an uprgraded Clearaudio Emotion 100% made in Germany. Includes a $800.00 cartridge too. It is a superb-sounding unit and has stunning looks. The tonearm alone is worth around $ 1,200.00 if purchased separately.
A no-brainer if there ever was one.
Next step for me is finding a compatible speed box, but nothing’s urgent, it sounds fine as it is.
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