Todd - me again :-)
From what I understand, one method of construction that appears to work
- only the signal/live wire needs to be silver - stranded will be better for longevity (more flexible)
- you can get away with a single 18-20 gauge conductor for the signal/Live
- the neutral only need to be made from good quality OCC copper
- the neutral should be 2-4 times the gauge of the signal
- the neutral can be made from 2-3 seperate conductors tiwsted tightly together
- the neutral should be loosely wound around the signal - not tight like the Helix Cables - one wind every 2-3 inches
- add 2-3 layers of expandable nylon sleeve over the signal to separate the two conductors.
I have tried the helix design on a short cable and it works very well
- I use conductors from Kimber cables - great quality copper and easy to separate the braids
Hope that helps |
Todd - conventional wisdom says use larger gauge wire.
I was using 10 gauge silver plated wire from Van Den hul.
Then I received a pair of KLE Innovations gZero2 speaker cables - I wondered how could these skinny little cables better my 10 gauge?
Well - they trounced the Van den Hul.
They use a smaller gauge signal and a heavier gauge neutral.
Many power cvables are using 18 gauge wire and this application is for speakers, which carry a lot less power at normal listening levels.
I would try it first with some cat6 first a single strand and then a double strand to see what the differences are. Then you could move up to silver once you’ve found the correct gauge formula.
You could try the conductor from Vanden Hul IC cable - its great copper and silver plated. Or to start with try the conductors from DH Labs BL-1 IC cable - it's a lot cheaper
Hope that helps |
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Todd - an 18 gauge twin lead mains cable is rated to handle 10 amps at mains voltage see http://www.stayonline.com/reference-circuit-ampacity.aspxAnd - that is continuous power - it can handle much higher transient spikes - and music is just a series of transient spikes - not a continuous current draw - e.g. like an electric motor. I do not believe your amps, driving your speakers would come anywhere near the current limitations of an 18 gauge cable - even when driving them at insanely high volumes. Granted, transient spikes could reach fairly high peaks in current levels But the higher quality signal conductor you are using will handle those fast moving transients with ease. Once the current is "used up" i.e. by moving the drivers in the speakers - the residual current in the neutral is, by comparison, quite small. So - you might be thinking that the neutral should be of a smaller gauge at this point ? Wellll - that larger gauge neutral conductor is required to keep the neutral side "of the entire circuit (amp included)" as close to zero volts as possible. So the "thicker pipe" will conduct that residual current away very quickly If you are still concerned - you could use 16 gauge for the signal. To answer your question - my amp is 50 watts (but those are NAIM WATTS) and my speakers are 89db - only one db more than your own speakers. NAIM is a high current design the uses a large toroid transformer. Even at high levels it’s always been cool to the touch. Which may be an indication that the "real time" current drawer is actually quite low. Hope that helps :-) And keep us posted as to your progress |
Todd - Without getting into the design specifics of your amps,,, From the web...
Can I get a shock from the speaker connections on my Amp?YES! Amplifiers in the 400 plus watt per channel range are not uncommon today. Such an amplifier will put out about 50 to 60 volts RMS to a speaker.
So in very "general" terms, suppose you amps output voltage is 50 volts - To deliver 500 watts output would require 10 amps.
In order to keep it simple - and in very general terms... - the current carrying capacity of a conductor is specific to the gauge of the conductor.
see http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
18 gauge conductors can handle 16 amps contiuous for chassis applications Power transmission limits of 2.3 amps are for much longer runs than those employed for a speaker cable So the 10 amp rating previously quoted seems about right
Also remember - THIS IS CONTINUOUS POWER !!! The amp will not come close to the 10 amp continuous at the loudest of levels. But - if it makes you feel more comfortable use 12 gauge Regards - Steve :-) |
Todd - I know exactly where you are coming from - I was that way too - up until quite recently :-) I used to have 10 gauge Van den Hul D352 silver plated copper that I thought were terrific.Never found anything to better them. I started with VDH 14 gauge, then 12 and finally the 10 gauge D352 - each time the bass got better Here's what changed mt mind http://image99.net/blog/files/fac35e44c003d559714cdd73d86febf9-51.htmlHere's what cemeted my new found beliefs http://image99.net/blog/files/228f7609149d575dd8dd8d956511e7c2-57.html. Short Story - I no longer make pre-listening judgement s based on cable girth - like I had done in the past. Try this... - make a set of neutral conductors from the wire you will finally use - BUT... >> make 2 sets of signal wires ------one set from an 16 or 18 gauge extension cord (home depot) ------ a second set from a 12 gauge extension cord (home depot) Basically, - the copper will be of a similar quality - so any difference in sound will be down to the gauge of the conductor and the geometry of the finished cable I've taken this approach with my helix cables and it is an affordable way of proving a theory - it is time consuming, but rewarding Hope that helps - Steve |
Todd - I have not "dismantled" either gzero2 or 6 cables, but the visible part of the gZero6 leads has two conductors twisted tightly together for the neutral - the signal conductors looked identical. The individual neutral conductors may have bee a slightly large gauge also Very early on I purchased Stager Silver solids, which were a tightly twisted pair. From what I have read, twisting conductors tightly disrupts the effectiveness of RFI/EMI - hence a screen is not necessary. I have never made my own speaker cables simply because tightly twisting a 10 ft conductors would prove extremely difficult. However, I did find this wire the other day - it might be useful for a neutral conductor https://www.takefiveaudio.com/products/1683-belden-9497-cryo-treated/The two 16 gauge conductors used as a single wire would be 13 gauge - Using two of them would give you a 10 gauge - used with a 12 gauge signal/live would probably work well I think the fact they are "tinned" would be OK for the neutral, but I would not use them for the signal If I did construct some speaker cables I'd probably try this cable together with the MilSpec 18 or 16 gauge running through this teflon tube
https://www.takefiveaudio.com/categories/118-convoluted-teflon-tubing-flexes-without-kinking (from above) Sorry I could not provide better info. Regards - Steve |
Todd - take a look at these conductors from DH Labs http://www.silversonic.com/docs/products/hookup.htmlI like DH Labs wire a lot, as you know - best bang for the buck in my books BTW the pricing on the AG- wires is incorrect - the price on their web site is for silver plated copper and not solid silver BTW - I just ordered the twisted Beldon wire above and the 16 gauge silver plated mil-spec. Figured I'd give it a whirl :-) I also have some Vanden Hull CS-122 that I can use in place of the 16 gauge Mil Spec to see if there is any difference from a gauge perspective Regards... |
Todd, that sounds like a very good plan. The CAT5 is a known entity for you and will let you hear the benefits of the Helix geometry. Replacing the signal cable at a later date will build on what is hopefully a very good speaker cable. This is very similar to my own approach when I made the helix IC’s and mains cables. When I made the IC’s I started with the silver signal conductor and then refined the the number of individual conductors using CAT5 in the helix neutral. I then replaced the CAT5 with a higher quality conductor. How many 12 gauge conductors are you planning for the neutral?
How long are the cables you are making?
On the power cable I just finished instead of 2 x 12 gauge i decided to try 3 x 14 gauge - which came out to 9.262 AWG as opposed to 9.011 AWG for the 2 x 12, but much easier to work with. Here’s a link to a useful wire gauge calculator https://www.v-cap.com/awg-calculator.phpFor the speaker cables I am going to build I’m trying a twisted pair for the helix neutral and a single 16 gauge mil-spec from TFA. It’s more to try the twisted pair as the neutral. Regards - Steve |
Todd, 6.5ft is pretty manageable with the helix geometry.
It starts to get cumbersome around 8 ft. You just need a long room or hallway to keep the conducts from tangling.
Regards |
Todd - I was so pleased with the performance of a single run of the gZero2's on my Bi-wired Tannoys that I just put quality jumpers made from a similar gauge/type wire as the cable,s at the speaker end I'm guessing, but I think the Helix cables (using conductors you've selected) in a non bi-wire approach will deliver a similar level of performance as my gZero2 cables
(but with more bass)
, so you should be very pleased. I think one wrap per inch will suffice for speaker cables - since the signal in the cable is not amplified any further, the need for 100% screening is not as great.. I've ordered 10ft of signal and 20ft of neutral so I can let you know how many wraps per inch that comes out to. FYI: I plan to leave about 6" of the neutral straight at each end for easier connection, as in the photo in this link http://image99.net/blog/files/category-klei-gzero6-sc.htmlHope that helps =- Steve |
@ toddverrone - for IC’s I use a ratio of 3.0 times the length of the signal wire. For the latest Power cable I increased that to 2.6 because I used a smaller gauge (14) neutral conductor and wanted maximum coverage to maximize the screening ability of the 9ft cable. Generally, all of the other Power cables have been around 2.3 because of the thicker gauge conductor being used For the speaker cables I will be making this week I will be reducing that ratio to 2.0, since screening is not as important with a cable carrying a signal that will not be amplified any further. I see no point in wasting money on wire that has minimal effect :-) My take on it is ... - if the signal is going to be amplified at all then use more neutral conductor - otherwise reduce the amount of neutral - i.e. within reason My early Helix IC’s and power cables were probably all closer to 1.8, but I can’t say I noticed any difference in the noise floor between those and the later versions with more neutral - I guess I am just playing it safe with the ratios above. Increasing the ratios to greater than 2,6 (power) and 3.0 (IC’s) by too much more is not possible due to the thickness of the conductors in play - the helix ends up being longer than the signal. Hope that helps |
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@ toddverrone - UPDATE... Todd - I’ve built one of the cables with the conductors that I have identified above and I encountered some minor annoyances... Construction... - - I used two layers of 1/4 inch shrink tube to protect the 16 gauge mil-spec signal wire and put some added "distance" between it and the neutral
- - Being a twisted conductor, the 20ft neutral (i.e. on a 10 ft signal wire) only allowed for one wrap every inch. I guess the 1/4" shrink tube required more neutral than I had anticipated I was looking for 2 winds every inch, but I do not believe it will impact the sound.
- - Once I had it tightly twisted around the dowel, I secured it at both ends and then warmed the wire with a hair dryer to make it more malleable and then rolled it with the palm of my hand on a flat surface to tighten the wrap and ensure there was minimal unrolling once the the tape securing the ends was removed - this is something you might not encounter to the same degree using two single conductors for the neutral
- I then left it for a couple of hours to settle
- I inserted the signal wire into the shrink tube, inserted that assembly into the helix coil and secured the ends of the neutral and signal with some dabs of hot glue and shrink wrap - it stops the neutral from unwrapping and sliding up and down the signal wire
Using the twisted neutral was a lot harder to coil and was much more "springy" than I had anticipated - not something I’d suggest to others - unless it provides significant benefits - but it does look quite striking with an orange and black twisted neutral wrapped around the black shrink tube I’ll let you know how they sound once I’ve installed the bananas (still in transit) and allowed some burn-in Chat Later |
@ toddverrone - just finished te second cable. Second one was easier, but I now have blisters on blisters - and that was using gloves.:-( Will keep you posted as to the sound Cheers |
@ toddverrone not being able to wait for the bananas to arrive, I crimped some bananas from an old pair of speaker cables onto the Helix. Here are my findings... For starters - 16 gauge appears to be perfectly adequate for bass reproduction - the bass does change and I found I had to play several tracks to appreciate just what changes had taken place. - the bass is now very detailed and very controlled, so on some tracks it appears the bass has diminished, but that is due to a less bloated bass - on my bass test track - a song called Undring, by Sigmund Groven and Iver Klieve the bass on the pipe organ was actually fuller, more vibrant and very well controlled - important for pipe organ reproduction, whilst the hamonica was very detailed and stood out more than usual - Albums by Stevie Wonder and Peter Gabriel also confirmed the bass is in fact fuller and more dynamic Clarity is amazing. The dynamics are exceptionally fast. Image width did not change a great deal, but the depth and height is much improved. I thought I had very good speaker cables - I do now :-) This has been a total surprise - I tried this because you had decided to try the helix, which inspired me to see what helix could do for speaker cables on my system So I thank you for that :-) Since the conductors I selected were very good, but not what I would call exceptional, I thought I would be lucky to match the cables I was using - boy was I wrong. Can better conductors improve things even further? I might get around to testing that one day :-) Seems the helix design works very well for speaker cables. The new bananas should also improve thing a little I’m listening to some orchestral tracks while I type this and the sound is very natural sounding with improvements in the venue acoustics being very noticeable. What I am wondering is - will the 12 gauge bring out the same level of details and expand the depth of the image as my 16 gauge has? BTW - I normally wait for the burn-in process to complete before posting results, but these improvements were so startling I thought I’d give you a taste of what should be coming to your system. I really hope you get to experience the same level of improvement. FYI - all my cables are now of the Helix design. Keep me posted and let me know what your findings are. Cheers |
@ toddverrone - a very quick burn-in update.. At the 12-18 hour mark the cables threw a bit of a "wobbler" - they presented some noticeable anomalies... - the image became unbalanced... - certain instruments appeared to come directly from one of the speakers rather than behind the speaker with the rest of the image. - instruments moved towards the front within the image as the track played, where they had been more towards the rear. - there was slight distortion in the upper register of higher pitched instruments, like violins and oboes etc.. This "wobbler" resolved itself by the 24 hour mark and they are now sounding very balanced and cohesive. I believe the movement issue is due to cables affecting the phase of the left and right channels Since you are trying different gauge signal conductors either - complete your assessment before the 16 hour mark - or go past the 24 hour mark I actually streamed internet radio continuously to push the burn-in along. These anomalies are consistent with what I observed with the Helix IC’s I have built That’s it for now - keep me posted as to your progress Cheers |
@ toddverrone - another very quick burn-in update.. They say "man should learn something every day" So here's what I learned today... - In an earlier post I mentioned the effect of phasing on instrument placement i.e. changing position in the image - what I forgot about was the effect phasing would have on bass - since we all know if you connect the speakers out of Phase then bass suffers So after about 48 hours of burn-in I noticed a marked improvement in bass performance - much more full bodied and much deeper - still very controlled and very dynamic It will be very interesting to hear your observations of the effect of different gauges of signal conductors. If I had to guess I would say the finer gauge would provide better details and more clarity - but it would be just that - a guess I don't know if gauge has an effect on bass performance, since my bass has improved significantly. Gotta love this hobby - especially when things go as planned :-) Chat Later
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@JRUNR I've only tried Signal's Silver Revolution power cables, but I was impressed, i.e. for a commercially available product. I've heard good things from other members about their silver IC's, so I would have to believe their speaker cables would right up there. I do know a lot about KLE Innovations (KLEI) products, which are extremely good - the best I've ever auditioned/reviewed. I would highly recommend those - but they are a little more expensive than the Signal Cables products. KLEI are not as big as the likes of Kimber, Cardas, etc, but are seriously better and they are gaining momentum, following some very positive reviews by some serious audiophiles. Take a look at their web site and click on the reviews link... https://kleinnovations.com/I do actually have their gZero2 and gZero6 speaker cables (both 3 meters) which I plan on selling very soon if you are interested. I've just finished building speaker cables of my own design, which will be replacing both sets of gZero's in my A/V and two channel systems Regards... |
@ toddverrone - you know what it's like in this hobby - one past glory funds the next adventure :-) I didn't want to "colour" your own assessment of your cables by stating what I thought about my own DIY Helix cables, but suffice to say, they surpassed the gZero6's by a considerable margin and from what I recall they also outperformed their TOTL zPURITY8 speaker cables I still really like KLEI products and will continue to promote them to people not of the DIY mindset - I just found that my DIY's are better. So yes - I'm selling both sets - gZero2 and gZero6 speaker cables to recoup some of their expense. BTW - you could have knocked me over with a feather when I heard them I hope you experience the same level of performance :-) Cheers |
@ toddverrone - Oooops! - I was not very clear on this, but I was simply talking about using two conductors the same length and running them side by side with a 1/2" air gap between them The neutral should be wound "snugly" around the signal conductor My apologies P.S. - I just got the bananas, so I can finally finish the cables. Second set is in progress Regards... |
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I soldered the banana
The signal is 16 gauge cryo silver plated mil spec from take five audio.
Regarxs |
@ toddverrone - They get much better after 100 hours :-) BTW - I updated the web site to include my hypothesis as to why they work. It makes sense to me - finally (LOL) http://image99.net/blog/files/d048bbacfce9bcad4a025be804771d9a-76.htmlThe Silver plated BFA's are amazing - but they also took a couple of days to burn-in and reach their best The silver plated 16 gauge Cryo Mil_spec I used for the signal is excellent - I see no reason to move to solid silver for the signal. Enjoy the music :-) |
@ toddverrone - got it - I will change that immediately Thanks Chat Later |
@ toddverrone - I’m now getting an incredibly cohesive image with pinpoint placement of artists and instruments now the bananas have burned incompletely. Some tracks that I have used for auditioning include... Hide and Seek.by Imogen Heap - is a track that uses the phasing technique. It has always amazed me at how this track seems to envelope the listener, placing sounds behind my head. But I had noticed that with each cable tried certain reverberations of the image shifted position behind me. - With these cables those reverberations now appear to be centered right between my ears - very unnatural. A bit like wearing headphones. - Is it finally in the correct place? Without hearing the track in the studio system I have no way of knowing - but it makes sense this is the correct position - finally? Is This Love - Bob Marley - perhaps one of the largest images I hear from any studio recording. Instruments that appear to be located quite a distance out side of both speakers. It is also a very dynamic track with extremely fast percussive elements and has some very nice natural sounding reverberations and a very smooth bass line with nice details Papas Calientes - La Chimera - from a very nice album titled Buenos Aires Madrigal - it transports me into another world - I’m sitting in an out door cafe in an Argentine square where the performers are roaming from one cafe to another - it certainly sounds like superb live engineering - but is it?.- who cares :-) Undring - Sigmund Groven & Iver Kleive - is superb live engineering at its best with spectacular spacial acuity that envelopes the listener, But for entertainment, I get a kick out of watching the woofers "dance" at around 10 Hz part way through this track - a testament to the abilities of these cables, the pipe organ and the engineers. There are now so many of these special tracks - just too many to list I hope you are having a similar experience :-) Regards - Steve |
@ toddverrone - irie mon ! break out de Red Striiipe :-) How About... The Golden Age of Wireless by Thomas Dolby - a-m-a-z-i-n-g ! Business as Usual by Men at Work - super-fast dynamics and superb clarity Any track by Police and U2 - so crisp All are on vinyl ;-) But the digital stuff sounds great also. I never appreciated just how well recorded Fleetwood Mac is - until now! I’m very glad you are hearing the same improvements as me - especially since you are using different conductors I think it "proves" the geometry is the key "ingredient". - The type of conductor would probably allow/deny small refinements in details. Lav and Pearl - did you get the pink vinyl ? - it’s reeel purrrtie :-) I downloaded the MP# and it sounds pretty good - I’l have to to try get a high res version. Best analogy I can think of - - with my old cables - it’s like drinking filtered tap water - with the Helix cables - you’re drinking flavoured Perrier Chat Later - Steve |
@ toddverrone - Ouch! - how did incorrect wiring an IC kill your amp? That's interesting - did it short the input to the amp ? most amps can handle that. Unless you shorted the pre-amp output? Also, doesn't sound as though you were using a Harmony RCA - because it's almost impossible to create an accidental short condition with those (one of the things I really like). Hmmm - what did you do? Finally, I have a Blusound Powernode 2 amplifying my TV, so I gave it the speaker cable upgrade... - These cables really do show just how good the new amplifier designs really are - The Powernode 2 is 50 watt per channel into 8 ohms, class D - into a pair of Tannoy Mecury F4 -
91dB
8 ohms 34Hz - 20kHz
Since the Power Node 2 only has an Ethernet cable (for music) and an optical cable for input for from the TV, the only copper cables in the audio pipeline are my DIY speaker cables. Immediately, the dynamics, deep bass performance and bass control improvements were very noticeable.
Perhaps the biggest and most noticeable improvement is the clarity. The diminutive Powernode 2 now exerts complete control over the Tannoys with lots of power to spare and the TV sounds the best it's ever sounded, except there are no rear speakers anymore - a choice I made when downsizing the A/V system to fit the new house. Even the shortest Helix speaker cables I have made is on my mini system (around 15" each channel) ,also yields significant improvements. So it does not seem to matter how long you make them - the appear to work very well. Regards... |
@toddverrone - that’s very interesting - sounds as though pushing the signal onto the neutral rail of the amp caused some issue - normally it only causes an out of phase condition - i.e. bad image and poor bass. Anyhow, glad to hear nothing in the system was damaged and it’s up and running and sounding good. Remember, burn-in takes a while - +200 hours to get the smoothness these cables can offer. Right now I’m finding with the speaker cables on my Powernode 2 (the A/V system) - the system is sounding very bright - almost to the pint of appearing "brittle". But my two channel system is telling me this too will pass - it is very smooth (+250 hours of playing) Did you finalize the wire you are using on the speaker cables? Keep me posted on the conductors you settle on and how it sounds once you have some hours playing. BTW - I just looked at your system (nice photos and very nice components) I think I spotted a digital cable? - The Helix IC’s with the Harmony plugs can also be used as a digital SPDIF cable - they do not suffer from the digital glare as some normal digital cables do - it’s all to do with the impedance of the Harmony RCA’s eliminating "internal electron congestion/reflections" - That’s why on 70 ohm Coax has to have a 70 ohm RCA I tried several RCA/Signal conductor combinations and found ... - you do not have to use solid silver for the signal - good small gauge copper will do. - you can use Silver Harmony RCA’s - the more expensive RCA’s were no more effective. - I still used the same quality neutral conductor. This was testing with 24/192 digital signals - higher than that might require better RCA’s and conductor - but I’m not going there. I started out building the Helix with CAT5 + Absolute Harmony RCA’s to prove the theory... - I found it surpassed my store bought digital cable - using better conductors + Absolute Harmony sealed the deal. - I then stepped back from the Absolute Harmony RCA’s to Pure Harmony and finally Silver Harmony. - The Silver Harmony work flawlessly! - I did not try the Copper Harmony because I found them to be much less effective on the analogue IC’s Hope that helps WRT... I’m still listening to them, but initial findings on the helix ICs are incredibly positive. More of the helix magic: less noise, greater clarity, better separation of sound sources. Good stuff! Good Stuff indeed! :-) Regards... |
@toddverrone - re...
I’ll twist the signals together
I am assuming you are twisting the two bi-wire signal conductors - one 12 gauge (for LF) and one 14 gauge (for HF) and then wrapping two sets of neutral conductors around the twisted signals? Personally - i would not do that. I would make two separate cables - its easier Why you ask? - even though the signal being applied to the two signal conductors is the same - the current being drawn down each conductor is vastly different - you may get emi/ri polution across the two, making matters a whole lot worse - same goes for the neutrals and you would have to keep them evenly spaced to prevent EMI/RFI However - It might be more successful if you... - Wind the signal conductors in opposite directions and then straighten them out - leaving slight kinks in the conductors and put each one in a piece of expandable sleeve. - this would prevent the conductors from becoming "alligned" and prevent EMI/RFI pollution - For the neutrals you could wind each neutral in opposite directions around both signal conductors - this would prevent EMI/RFI between the neutrals - make sure you use the EXACT same formula for L/R cables - i.e. the LF neutral is the outter winding and the HF is the inner winding Its a little more tricky, but I think that would at least minimize RFI/EMI pollution across conductors and produce a single bi-wire speaker cable The "Kinky Conductors" has been in the back of my mind to try for the signal in the IC's for some time, but never had the opportunity. I hope that I interpreted your thoughts correctly? Regards... |
@toddverrone - "Bad-Ass" - I likes it! Maybe I’ll post a new cable on my blog - "The Bad-Ass Helix" (LOL) If it were me, the decision would be down to - bi-wiring or bi-amp-ing? For the former... - I would elect for the simple approach and forget about bi-wire cables, since I never found they provide any benefit once you get a good pair of conductors to jumper the bi-wire terminals. - I did bi-wire my Tannoy’s, but as I said - once I replaced the brass jumpers I found two cables provided no benefit. It was wasted money - I used identical wires. - and to quote you... but I also went from blue jeans twisted pair 12 awg to my braided CAT 5, which has a combined 9 awg. So I’m not sure if it was the biwiring or all the other differences that improved the sound. I think it was due to the differences between the two cables (i.e. copper quality, gauge and geometry) - rather than the effect of a bi-wire approach that accounts for the improvements.
- you could reduce the "bad-ass" design to have one neutral and split it at both ends - makes it much simpler to implement.
For the latter... - I would still opt for separate cables - mainly because I do not know what the combined cable will do to the sound. I agree - it would be interesting to try the "bad-ass" cables - just to see if there is any advantage - but without verification the only advantage right now is - you would only have one cable per speaker as opposed to two. You can still implement the kinked signal conductor, since it is pretty easy to do and has minimal impact on the length of the signal conductor, but again, without verification, who knows if it is worth the additional effort. I just wish I had the time and funds to try all of this stuff out - you don’t know of any audio benefactors do you :-) BTW - on my A/V system, the brittleness has now subsided and getting smoother by the day :-) It’s as though someone turned on a light switch - you notice it instantly one day you turn the system on, then a couple of days later - it’s gone - very weird! As always - keep me posted - cos I’m really enjoying the exchange of thoughts - it keeps my mind agile :-) Cheers |
@toddverrone - re... So, you really think the twisted signals and combined neutrals could contaminate one another, even though they’re carrying the same signal?
Well let me explain my thinking... - the voltage applied to the two sets of terminals is identical - the tweeter x-over circuit allows the high frequencies to pass - the woofer allows the low frequencies to pass - each driver draws different current down the related conductors at those different frequencies - The intensity of the magnetic field is directly proportional to the current present So my answer to your question is - Yes, because they are not carrying the same current, different levels of noise will be induced into each conductor and noise contamination will prevail. You could probably get a similar, or better result if you either 1. separate the two conductors by placing each one into a couple of pieces of expandable sleeve to increase the space between them 2. braiding the two conductors with a piece of cord of the same thickness (DO NOT use a piece of unconnected wire because it really complicates things) The neutral conductors may not impact the sound at all Here’s a good article - look at conductive and inductive coupling http://www.siemon.com/us/white_papers/02-03-22-emi.aspIf you twist the cables together you then have to consider capacitive coupling. Hope that - helps ? Regards... |
@toddverrone - that's great to hear - awsome! RE:...
One thing that I keep thinking about in regards to the signal.. if it was one run of cable, wouldn’t the worries over noise be the same?
Or would that not be an issue because it’s full signal, and the jumpers would only be susceptible to induction?
Paragraph 1: Having two wires carrying different frequencies and current there raises the possibility the two signal wires would contaminate each other - this is not possible with a single cable. Paragraph 2: On my speakers the jumpers are totally separate pieces of wire, so induction is not possible- they are only 4" long. Over the next few hours the brittleness should arrive and then abate after a couple of days. The depth of the bass may drop off a little around this point also Around 15-20 hours there will be a little confusion in the image - focus will drop off and instruments may appear further forward or back and some distortion may appear in the extreme upper end e.g. the violins upper register. After around 18-24 hours that will settle down and the image will gain pinpoint precision both left to right and front to back Between 30-40 hours the bass will develop into a fuller, deeper, more "rounded" sound, but will not lose it's detail and control - it just develops more 3D "flavour" I now have about 60 hours on my Audio cables they are sounding superb. The A/V cables are a little shorter so they may take less time to burn-in. I am not paying as much attention with them - certain things like the brittle sound is easily discernible, but the bass not so much because I have a sub on that system. Imaging is also not as noticeable unless I play my test tracks, but even so, the environment does not make it as easy to discern spacial correctness, so I don't bother. Having said that, I did play music for around 4 hours yesterday on the A/V system and for the few moments I actually stopped to listen it was sounding extremely good :-) The extended clarity you hear on the top-mid end is due to the silver plated conductor you are using. I don't think I will be trying the solid silver because it sounds pretty amazing as it is. Your dynamic performance should also be much better e.g. the very crisp snap on percussion instruments... - drums always have snap but instruments such as glockenspiels, triangles and bongos are so much more life like - on well recorded tracks you can actually hear the hammer strike the plates or the hand striking the skin. Anyhow as far as ...
Help me build speaker cables please!
I guess my job is done :-) AND - YOU did all the work! LOL Posting this stuff on my site has always been about helping others and hoping others would try new approaches and wire combinations based on my designs. Keep the posts coming as you notice changes And post your pics on the system page - If it's OK with you I will copy what you post and append the "Bad-Ass Speaker Helix" on my Helix Speaker page as an addendum Just to confirm your construction method... - SIGNAL WIRES: - kinky signals from 12/14 gauge with counter rotating spirals made form silver plated wire - NEUTRAL WIRES: - counter rotating Helix neutrals
- WHAT WIRE TYPE AND GAUGE DID YOU USE ????
Cheers |
Just looked at the pics you posted - that’s great - to loose helix you’ve used will prevent any noise interference and the counter rotation looks as though it will prevent contamination between the neutrals very well
I think they look great and should sound amazing !!! - great job!
Just think - if we hadn't shared this experience I would still be using the gZero6's
SO - I guess you "Helped ME build speaker cables" also - LOL
Regards...
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@toddverrone .... RE: Audition notes - at first I tended to write everything in my blog as I heard them, but now I just make lists of things that I hear and at how many hours. Then I flesh it out with details It took me about 4-5 reviews to get a style worked out, but the first reviews went through a lot of "wordsmithing" based on feedback made by Keith Louie Eichman once he read them. After so many reviews in a relatively short amount of time you also develop an ear for it. I have about 50 classical tracks and 55 more modern tracks that I am now extremely familiar with, so when I think I hear something I'll go to a specific track to verift an improvement (or otherwise' e.g. Is this Love - bob marley - the image is huge in all directions with lots of space around musicians Norah Jones - Not too Late - very little in the way of reverb voice treatment so it's like a personal concert Higher Love - Stevie Windwood - superb dynamics - best drums I've heard Peter Gabriel - So - superb textures in the bass line Classical tracks (live recordings) - I use these to establish how well the image is reproduced The photos you have will be perfect for what I have in mind Thanks for the wire details - perfect I'll post a link here once I get it on my site BTW - I would like to refer to you on my site as - Audiogon member Toddverrone - it maintains your anonymity, but allow people to contact you via Audiogon should they wish to verify what has been typed - unless you prefer to remain anonymous ??? I'd also like to "quote" a couple of sentences from your posts here pertaining to your observations if that's OK? e.g.
So far, they did superb! The same black background as the single helix with cat 5, but more clarity from top to bottom. There's not more bass, it's just a bit tighter and clean. The mids and highs have greater clarity and come further out from the background, with a better separation of sounds. RE: your Interconnect - what is the white stuff under the neutral - some sort of tube? - what wire did you used for signal and neutral I think I'll update that page as well :-) Cheers |
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Todd - thanks for the info on the IC's.
If you should get currrrrious - I would recommend putting the Absolute Harmony on your IC's
Once the new Bad-Ass Bi-Wire's are fully burned in and your ears get acclimated to the wonderful clean, dynamically crisp sounds you won't have any trouble hearing the improvements those RCA's will make :-)
Agreed - It's been a great experience - thanks for all the feedback
Until next time - Cheers |
@toddverrone... Oh man, these things are incredible. It’s not that I’m hearing things I haven’t before. Well - The improved clarity is due to the precise phase alignment of the signals of each sound as it occurs, between L and R channels, which in turn places each sound in it’s very own "space" and improving it;s clarity The noise in the old cables causes mis-alignment in the L/R channel phase and places one sound on top of another - voila - a very muddled sound - i.e. to the human ear! If you are now hearing this, your cables are about to reach yet another new turning point - you will start to hear more body and warmth in the mid’s and a fuller bass together with a smoothness in the higher frequencies like a violins upper register and for voice - the soprano - both will start to sound very smooth and rich I couldn’t tell you this before, because I’m only a few days ahead of you in my burn in process and just noticed this at the end of last week - LOL but sounds more like an increase in dynamic range
Again - its due to the precise phase alignment of the left and right channels improving the clarity and making individual sounds louder - again, as perceived by our ears. BTW - remember that what you are experiencing is the combination of having Helix cables across the entire system - try replacing a power cable or an IC with any commercial product and see what happens - you will return to a muddled presentation - maybe not AS-MUDDLED - but definitely not as clear and not as dynamic. One thing I noticed today - my Powernode 2 is now operating cooler, so I guess it was a product of the burn-in process that caused the small increase in temperature. Anyhow - it’s gonna be very interesting to see how these cables progress over the next few weeks - I’m now thinking these will need 300-400 hours before they get to their very best. Have a great time in Europe :-) Regards - Steve |
