Has Rel fallen out of favor with audiophiles?


I own a Rel Storm 3. which I've had for 10 yrs or so. My new hardwood floor has really opened things up, especially in the bass area. much more pronounced bass and excellent sound stage.  I was planning on upgrading my sub after completing the floor. My Rel Storm 3 is pushing at its max to keep up in a 5k+ cu ft  room. Ten yrs ago the Storm 3 was one of the best on the market. It integrates very wall into the 2 channel system. Now, there is SVS, Rhythmic, PSA  etc which have much better specs than the Rels for less $$$. But the question for me is whether they actually integrate with the main speakers as well as the Rel? I use mine  for music 95% of the time. Music doesn't need to plumb the 16hz range as much as HT does. And most of the reviews seem to come from HT sources, IE AVS forum and the various HT magazines. From what I can tell, then Rhythmic seems to cater to the audiophile more than HT. But how about a sealed  SVS ?. And will they both integrate as well as the Rel with the high level speakon input? 

So, for audipophiles, do you sacrifice the ultra low hz for the good integration of the Rel? Or do you go with then SVS, Rhythmic, etc with their lower octave output? IOW, do the integrate as well?
Thanks for your help

arte
128x128artemus_5
I would (I cannot see how it could damage your amp) but that is your call to make. Again, mine did the same thing recently when I was moving my gear/cabling around and it stopped when I connected the hi-level cable using the technique above with no damage to anything.

Shubert - are you Sheldon Cooper operating under a pseudonym? Do you like flags too?

Dave
Dlcockrum. IOW, just hook it up and try it? I have been concerned that it might damage my amp. Is my concern uncalled for?
With amplifier turned off, securely connect the individual hi-level wires of the REL cable to amp’s speaker terminals per RELs instructions and plug the connector on the other end into the REL’s hi-level input. Turn on amplifier, plug the REL’s power cord into the AC receptacle, and switch on.

Dave
Dlcockrum. mine makes the sound without being hooked up to anything except the power outlet

Almarg, I appreciate your information. However, being and electronics illiterate, I will have to get a friend to decipher. Still, I suspect the info is good and he will understand. Whatever, it seems that maybe the sub isn’t bad after all, which will be great IMO

BTW, thanks to all. 

smer31936 posts
09-09-2017 8:15am
A Hi-Level connection, Proper placement and model selection, REL's installed in pairs are very strong practices as REL can benefit any speaker system. 
We are a REL Dealer and choose REL as they are a true Sub-Bass System. Powered by a truly audiophile quality amplifier and lightning fast drivers, they are designed by John Hunter who is a musician, a lover of home systems and passionate in creating amazing experiences with systems at any price. Look us up and come by the store  
I'm having good results with optimal placement (for my room) and using multiple DSP subwoofers which reduce room nodes and load the room in a way that produces a subjectively more desirable low frequency experience.

I have a question and its not my intention to be challenging you or REL's claims but I'm simply not getting it. 
You used the phrase regarding REL subwoofers and their preferred  "Hi-Level connection" a "true Sub Bass System." I've read brochure description of their unique transformer design and the claimed superiority of the Hi-Level proprietary connectivity yet I've been unable to understand or hear the benefit of either. When comparing a Studio III the Hi-Level connection audibly interfered with my main speakers presentation. 

What is/makes a true Sub Bass System compared to other conventional systems and why aren't other manufactures using it? 

A question for everybody. What is an example and benifit of a fast subwoofer driver? Is there a measurable specification accompanying these drivers?   





A Hi-Level connection, Proper placement and model selection, REL's installed in pairs are very strong practices as REL can benefit any speaker system.
We are a REL Dealer and choose REL as they are a true Sub-Bass System. Powered by a truly audiophile quality amplifier and lightning fast drivers, they are designed by John Hunter who is a musician, a lover of home systems and passionate in creating amazing experiences with systems at any price. Look us up and come by the store www.sunnyaudiovideo.com
626-966-6259.
Artemus_5, I haven’t read the rest of this thread, but re your last post Dave could very well be right. The input impedance of the high-level inputs of REL subs is very high, 100K in the case of many models. An unconnected high impedance input is inherently susceptible to hum pickup, that might even be coupled into the input from the sub’s own amplifier.

The input impedance of the line-level inputs of most REL subs is much lower, 10K in the case of many models, which reduces that susceptibility somewhat, but may not eliminate it.

What you can do for test purposes is any one of the following:

1) Connect shorting plugs to the sub’s RCA inputs, if you have them.

2) Alternatively, connect the sub’s high-level cable to the sub, and connect its yellow, red, and black wires together, to each other. That will result in a near zero impedance at the sub’s high-level input, which is not much different than the impedance a power amplifier would present to it.

3) Alternatively, connect the sub’s line-level inputs to the line-level outputs of a preamp or source component, with that component being powered up but not processing a signal. And with its volume control, if it has one, set to minimum. That will result in the sub’s line-level inputs being forced to a relatively low impedance.

Obviously, have the sub turned off while you are implementing these connections.

Regards,
-- Al

Hi artemus,

There may be nothing wrong with the Storm 3. I have had that happen before installing the hi-level cable from the amp to the REL.

Dave
Well, I bought another Rel Storm 3 to pair with my existing one. Bought from Ebay. Got it and plugged it in, only to have a big hum coming from it. I just had it plugged into the wall when the loud buzz started immediately upon powering up. I was afraid to hook it to my amp. Therefore I got a refund via paypal. Seller didn't respond to sending it back. So i still have it and trying to figure out what to do with it.
The hum is too loud to be a ground loop. Plus it happens just being powered up without connecting to my system. I suspect the amp is bad.So I'm back at the beginning....again. Maybe I'm just supposed to live with the one sub. Sounds good but I want a little more. Crazy audiophool stuff.
phusis,

Thank you for your reply re: SVS subs.  Well written, informative and best of all, is helping me decide which route to take!

-- Bob
You know why I don't think of REL too often?   Because my R305 that I've had for a while draws no attention to itself and blends perfectly with my mains....
The new Ti and S series have what looks to be an RS232 interface where the wireless adapter plugs straight into. 
That $199 add-on doesn't work with older RELs for reasons I find mysterious (does it require a specific input that older models lack?). In any case…LAME...
REL offers a 60 day satisfaction guarantee trial if you purchase directly from them. Just purchased a REL T/7i and am getting it dialed in.  So far, so good.  REL offers a dedicated wireless feature, included in some products, but also available for $199 add-on. 
Are the REL's of today only REL by name and not what REL used to be with Mr Lord at the helm? The studio sub was eye candy to me back in the day. Then again the whole REL range were the mutts nuts when it came to bass, bass and more bass. Not heard any of the new breed of subs from REL though.
I bought a REL Stentor3 years ago and think the company has the worst customer service I've ever dealt with.

I think Sumiko owned them when I tried to get a new amp for it and they gave me the run around so I stuck it in the closet until recently.

Wrote the current owners and they never even wrote me back. Tired of this hunk of junk taking up space.The dealer I bought it from wasn't much help either.
Wood tools? Not only do I own digitally controlled servo subwoofers I own a SawStop. You wanna talk controversy? 

 http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/anti-mode-8033.shtml

Wear a mask and have fun with it.

Thanks to all who have responded. From the responses I would conclude that Rel is still a player in the audiophile subwoofer market. However, like all things audio, they have their adherents and their detractors. And they have a lot of competition now, unlike 10-15 yrs ago.
It almost seems foolish NOT to try SVS because of their satisfaction guarantee. They pay for return shipping also. Customer reviews seem to point out the musical advantage of Rythmik. Both these companies offer return policies while Rel & Sumiko do not (unless you buy from a store which has a return policy

At this point I may be leaning towards a DIY Rythmik 15" sealed box. I have limited space. The sealed box fits where I need it to fit. I can build 2 and have 2 very good subs for the price of one factory assembled. I am a woodworker with all the necessary  tools. So that hurdle is conquered. Now for the time & $$$. Aren't they always the biggest hurdles?
I have used REL subs for the last 20 years and love em to death. I started out with the Storm series 1, 2 and 3 then jumped to a Stadium ll and couldn't be happier. I use the high level inputs and it is run along side a pair of Vienna Acoustics Beethoven original speakers. I never have to turn up the sub volume past nine o'clock and rarely have to adjust the crossover, basically keeping it at the lowest crossover setting. I have listened to a few newer REL subs (after John Hunter took over) and wasn't impressed, but that's after spending much time with my Stadium ll and a friends Stentor ll run with a pair of Sonus Faber Extremas... that was a kick ass combo. Anyways, I think the point, as stated elsewhere in this thread, is that the top end original REL subs (Stadium, Stentor and Studio) are hard to beat for smooth effortless musical bass. You can still find super clean examples of these subs on the used market for very reasonable prices. Peace.
shadorne,

I think Arte’s recent post quoting the REL setup guide exactly reflects my personal experience, ie the REL is a "sub-bass system designed to augment the performance of full-range speaker systems ...".

In my room, my speakers do not need traditional bass enhancement, but the sound is improved by the sub-20hz sound-pressure loading of my room provided by the REL(s). The REL(s) are more felt than heard, yet imaging, soundstaging, and midrange clarity are all improved by the effect of this ultra-low frequency room loading. Two RELs simply provide a more uniform loading in my room, as I think it would be be with JL, etc. also. 

The REL(s) can also be used in out-of-phase mode to help cancel room-induced bass nodes beyond what is modulated by my sealed corner bass traps, a feature I find useful as my source changes. Each source can be (and should be IMO) optimized by different settings, ie REL(s) off with my TT (subsonic interaction), on but fed via XLR line-level inputs from my HT processor, and on with digital sources fed via the hi-level input from my amplifier(s) with judicious setting of the crossover and gain to optimize integration without adding bass bloat, often by also switching between in-phase and out-of-phase settings depending on the digital source.

I like JL and would unconditionally recommend them to those with the need for true bass enhancement to main speakers with limited low-frequency reproduction or don’t have the freedom to handle room nodes with acoustical treatment, specific placement, etc. The advent/implementation of digital room EQ included in the better JLs is invaluable in those situations and the JLs are great subs regardless IMO.

The RELs still, as they always have, provide a unique solution for those with true full-range speakers, an acoustically treated room, and with the freedom to cater to their placement and setup requirements.

Dave

When a driver is driven to extreme levels it can "compress" meaning it limits its own output by no longer responding to dynamics,
Wolf. I thought that is probably what you meant. But I hate to assume. I've always heard that called being over driven. But whatever the case, I agree with what you are saying. 

As for  the use of sub base, I just see that as marketing. Everyone has a gimmick. And many use the Rel with monitors. Their statement  may be nothing more than a CYA IF the sub does not fill the bill or satisfy the customer who may be expecting something which said sub cannot possibly do. If you run sound then you know that one venue takes more speakers and amplification than another. In the same way, one room needs more than another. IE, a T5 may fill my office space of 1400 cu ft. But it won't fill my LR of 5K cu ft. 
When i bought my Rel Storm 3 Rel was the strongest player at the time. the 18" Bag End was popular too. But rel was the Big player audiophile sub.The Storm was quite popular because the specs were pretty good and the footprint is small which is a necessity for me.  

My big question in this thread has been moreso about the integration of the other subs which are now on the market. And from all the answers i get, it looks like the others integrate as well as rel
When a driver is driven to extreme levels it can "compress" meaning it limits its own output by no longer responding to dynamics, having zero to do with recorded compression which is simply limiting extremes to squish loudness dynamics generally for higher overall volume...also, I don't care what REL publishes on their website regarding which mains work best with RELs (my main speakers use a "D'Appolito" array with a tweeter surrounded with equal output magnesium/aluminum woofers that are 3.75" with very large magnets in a tuned and ported column…surprisingly good bass within limits…flat to 50 hz, and rated to maybe 38hz which is somewhat misleading) as they have no idea what speakers you're going to use. I've always thought REL's use of "sub-bass" as opposed to subwoofer is silly as all you need to know is what they're doing…taking the speaker signal and filtering out the high frequencies…if you have small monitors that deliver bass to 60hz or 80hz or something, you adjust the REL to that frequency and that's it. The "not traditional" part of their hype is just not an actual thing.
Shadorne
  I suspect REL work best with speakers that have 6 inch or smaller woofers.


dlcockrum
  You suspect wrong as usual shadorne. The strong positive response to REL on this thread once again obviates your delusive opinions on audio


I recently read on Rel's website that they do not recommend using their subs with small woofers such as those found in monitors

From Rel setup guide
REL products are not traditional subwoofers, but true Sub-Bass Systems. A REL is designed to augment the performance of FULL RANGE speaker systems in order to provide, in certain cases, linear response below 15Hz.
https://relsupport.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115006046688-Two-Channel-Tuning-Guide

Wolf-Garcia
  I never drive my RELs to compression, ... I know compression, don't like it, and won't allow my poor little RELs to partake in it.

Wolf. I'm not sure what you mean by "compression"?. I understand compression as in Mp3. And as limiting dynamic range. I don't play Mp3s and have no control on the compression used in recordings. Can you please elaborate?
BTW, I play drums and sing so I understand what you are saying about the pro sound 18" subs 
phusis
  In other words, from what I can gather, you can have your cake and eat it too with the present state of subwoofers.

Lots of good posts in this thread. This may be the most succinct answer to  my question.

I haven't been in the subwoofer market in many years and was wondering if Rel had cornered the market in integration.  Apparently not. Thanks

Dave,

You have an amazing system and I agree that used together in stereo the REL subs will have enough SPL so I stand corrected by you. However, why buy 2 REL when 1 JL can do the job and even better....
I never drive my RELs to compression, and they would likely shut themselves off if I tried and the bass would be WAY out of balance…I own a classic no longer available Mackie HR120 sub I use in my studio, and it's 500 class A/B watts driving an EAW 12 with a passive 12" radiator, and is basically flat to 19hz. I also use various 18" thousand watt plus subs in live sound mixing work, and no home audio sub will come close to what those can do...I know compression, don't like it, and won't allow my poor little RELs to partake in it.
You suspect wrong as usual shadorne. The strong positive response to REL on this thread once again obviates your delusive opinions on audio.

Dave
Artemis_5

No worries. Your loss not mine. i thought my setup was listed but perhaps I made a mistake. I use large ATC and have their largest subwoofer. Woofers are all 15 inch...

I suspect REL work best with speakers that have 6 inch or smaller woofers. The compression at higher levels will be in good synergy with the limitations of a smaller woofer. 
...

Now, there is SVS, Rhythmic, PSA etc which have much better specs than the Rels for less $$$. But the question for me is whether they actually integrate with the main speakers as well as the Rel? I use mine for music 95% of the time. Music doesn’t need to plumb the 16hz range as much as HT does. And most of the reviews seem to come from HT sources, IE AVS forum and the various HT magazines. From what I can tell, then Rhythmic seems to cater to the audiophile more than HT. But how about a sealed SVS ?. And will they both integrate as well as the Rel with the high level speakon input?

So, for audipophiles, do you sacrifice the ultra low hz for the good integration of the Rel? Or do you go with then SVS, Rhythmic, etc with their lower octave output? IOW, do the integrate as well?


arte --

You touch upon something I went through myself in trying to find a proper sub for my all-horn main speakers. Horn bass typically exhibits very little smearing/overhang of the sound they create, helped along by light(er) diaphragms + voice coils that move very little and therefore has less inertia. I then opted to look for sealed subs (or variants hereof) exclusively to emulate as closely the sonic nature (transient speed) of my main speakers, but moreover had to consider the latter’s high efficiency, large radiation area and sheer output capabilities. Horn subs were naturally included in my thoughts, but eventually discarded due to practical constraints (i.e.: size issues). OB subs were discarded for the same reason, at least in my interiors. Classic sealed subs it had to be then, with 15" driver minimum size, and powerful ones at that (driver + amp). A larger driver needs less cone movement for the same output compared to a smaller unit, the added mass of the larger diaphragm I believe still outweighing the drawbacks of inertia (and more violent air displacement) from more cone movement via smaller drivers. Still, what amounted from these considerations led to circling subs using large drivers that could rightly be viewed as the antithesis of the more classic horn bass drivers, with their typically smaller and lighter voice coils + diaphragms, and considerably inferior power handling (which is not needed with horns), and limited cone travel. Here are sub bass drivers with 2-4" more or less linear cone travel, large voice coils (if not in diameter then in height and winding thickness) and huge magnets. And yet, for a 1,500 watts powered 16" driver with an 8"(!) voice coil, the sealed SVS SB16-Ultra sub - which I ended up buying and has used in my setup for now 4 months - I got me both 16Hz (in-room even below that number) and up to some 63Hz (low pass cut) with brutish control, excellent integration and unstrained performance at any desired output level (had space permitted I might even have added a 2nd SB16-Ultra, but in my current listening room is not strictly needed). I guess there is something to be said about the advancement in this particular area of sound reinforcement that defies typical wisdom of driver implementation, output level and the desired frequency span. In other words, from what I can gather, you can have your cake and eat it too with the present state of subwoofers.
The adjustability of RELs, especially the older ones like mine (certain newer models dispense with some knobulation) , enables you (or, in my case, me) to easily "tune" them to the listening environment. My main speakers, although rated to 38hz or something (lame rating..they’re Silverline Preludes with 3.75" woofers) barely make a peep at 38hz. The sweet spot is around 50hz for the RELs step in. The wireless thing (Longbow?) they offer with new RELs might be a selling point for them, but REL is missing out on a pile of sales to current owners of their older stuff by not making one of these work with RELs like mine (it is, after all, all about me)…I’d buy one immediately, which would seriously free up placement options.
Using a pair of T9i RELs, connected via their high level Neutrik cabling. Corner placement per REL instruction.
These are the first subs I have auditioned that I can actually stand to listen to because they integrate so seamlessly with my Dynaudio floorstanders. 
With my room gain, they measure flat to @ 22hz, but with visceral impact at 16 (I forget the measurement there).
They actually improve the imaging and lowest octave of my floorstanders, but I deviated from the REL guidance this way: I reduce the crossover point to the bottom of the Dynaudio's "flat down to" response (35hz), and increased the REL volume setting.
I am amazed at how well phasing works with the bottom octaves of the Dyn's - which is a significant problem with all other subs I have tried over the years.
Placement took a while - I used the Stereo Review test signals - but this was to get the loudest and most effective room coupling.
But with or without fine-tuning sub placement, integration with the mains was easy and surprisingly nice. Fine-tuning placement only extends the bass.
Other listeners comment that they are pleasantly surprised at the impact AND INTEGRATION of the sub. 2 channel or soundtrack.
They just augment and extend the bass, without calling attention to themselves. 
REL's are the top choice amongst 2 channel and accurate theater reproduction. 2 REL 212's would be amazing so will the new REL No 25.
www.sunnyaudiovideo.com
626-966-6259
May be "over-thinking" it a bit. The REL T or S series subs are great for music... if... properly set up and integrated.

And... yes... A DAP or EQ (e.g. DSpeaker Anti-mode 2.0, etc.) with automated frequency analysis / set up is invaluable to eliminate the room interaction and "room boom," which virtually all subs / mids produce, without using sound panels and bass traps. Makes a huge improvement in clarity and sound quality - unless you’re into hip-hop car audio.
I run two current version REL S5's in a 2ch only system and the results are amazing, they totally disappear and help create a much richer fuller sound in my room.  Night and day compared to before I brought them in.  :o) 
The Latest Rel made in the U.K like Stadium  or latedt storm which is less exprnsive,not the lesser China models 
Are without question as musically accurate as the U.S made top tier.
JL Audio ,SVS only their top Ultra I would consider top tier. There are even more expensive from B&W, Wilson, Magico even Revel have a $18k  powered 18inch monster.
If you have the $$.
M-db, ok so gain were not perfectly matched? you eq’ed the REL? im confuse on your method. why EQ the sub?
my rel, if well positioned in the room measure ruler flat up to 80hz. no need to eq it if you measure at the listening position the best location for the rel (ie: where it will measure the more flat)
I added T-7's to my monitors (currently running Tektons) and just loved the sound and ease of them. No problems with integration, boominess, or distortion. I do not see me going back to floor standers.
dlcockrum, yes that's essentially how we did the initial REL suggested corner setup. My rooms close boundary corner location is horrible for all the subwoofers. The Studio IIIs down firing seemed to make things worse. Lowering the gain became the most effective adjustment for that location but it took a great deal out of the low frequency presentation.

murphythecat, after the more important individual comparisons using low level preamplifier source at the same location we then used the source signal from the Velodyne software to all three subs initially adjusting the gain for the 20, 25, 32, and 40Hz bands for flattest response. A more detailed overview can be found on the Velodyne site for Digital Drive Plus Interface Manual. 



@ M-db. when you tested the subs, how did you made sure both sub were at the same gain level. ie: that they were at the same volume?
Hi m-db,

Your findings re: the adjustment of the REL mirrors mine to a large degree. Since I am also using full-range speakers, I set the crossover knobs to their lowest setting and the gain relatively low too. I found best integration when setting the crossovers/gain occurs when the impact of the REL(s) is noticed when shutting it/them off in the middle of a familiar track (ie setting it by starting with it on and then shutting it off to hear/feel the loss of room pressurization). If you can noticeable hear the REL boosting the bass when listening, the settings are too high IME. Should be felt more than heard.

Dave
The addition of "chicken head" knobs to the "High Level" volume pots on my RELs allows for the (not that frequent, but still) easy adjustment of bass levels as you can feel where the knob is, and hey, it gives the listener something to do with otherwise useless chicken heads.
dlcockrum
 I also find that my RELs effect the imaging/soundstage but in a positive way in my room/setup and agree that they are fussy about placement and setup.
This is an important point. dlcockrum's room created a different and successful effect than in my room ( by the way it was RELs short cable that limited room placement. It worked better in my predetermined location, no more fussy to locate than the other two subs. )

shadorne
I guess it depends what speakers they are paired with. Given that many audiophile speakers struggle above 95 db and distort and compress heavily then REL actually will integrate much better than other subs.
Another interesting point. Our little comparison was done with a pair of three way floor standing speakers only.


To be clear; the Studio III was compared with the supplied cable  using the high/speaker level connection and following the manufacture location and recording setup suggestions. This method had a slight affect on the mains and we had to reduced its gain to achieve what we agreed was the most acceptable integration. 

We then relocated it to the predetermined room location sourced by low level RCA signal optimized and EQd using Velodyne Digital Drive CD source signal adjusting and visually monitoring the frequency adjustments via a laptop. We all agreed the equalization allowed the sub to play at more realistic gain level, no interference with the mains, and a much better overall presentation IN THIS ROOM.      

"The Rhythmiks scare me a bit with all the fine tuning adjustments,. They remind me of the time I put a graphic equalizer in my system. I spent all my time tuning vs listening."

Understood! These are my first subs, because I never believed in these things. Plus, I was happy with the bass of my speakers as-is in my old home. Things changed when I moved. So, I found the sub amp adjustments difficult even with help, because that's space and system dependent.

With that said, I made it through it, and it reminded me of that moment of rightness (YES!) when you zero in on your cartridge setup.
Kenny
lol at shadorne. does it suppose to even make sense what you are saying?

what REL subs in their actual present line distort?

care to share measurements? 
Shadorne
  I guess it depends what speakers they are paired with. Given that many audiophile speakers struggle above 95 db and distort and compress heavily then REL actually will integrate much better than other subs.

The distortion and compression have given them an excellent reputation for integrating well. Of course a large JL sub may outperform many audiophile speakers creating a distinct lack of integration as the JL clean dynamics stick out like a sore thumb at higher SPL
Shadorne. Not sure why you choose to take this route. My system is listed. I notice yours isn't. Why should I give any credence to your cheap shot?  You have made your opinion of Rel known.. That and a buck fifty and I can buy a cup of coffee. Sorry, but your comments have become worthless to me. There is more to system building than numbers (specs) and snide remarks.