I am from the future. So you can trust me, the SQ gets better and better, without end. Amen. There is not enough time left in the world for ANYONE to get to the final destination. Assuming there was one. Which there isn’t. The trick is to stop 🛑 obsessing about the equipment. I am going back to the future, now.
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sqlsavior
With respect to FIDELITY, there certainly IS a glass ceiling, and it is the recording. One may be able to improve the sound of a recording, to make it sound better than it really is, but it is logically impossible to be more faithful to a recording than the recording itself.
>>>>>Sorry, but the recording is not (rpt not) part of the system. Super expensive high end systems includes the speakers, electronics and cabling, only. The recording is simply the MEANS to ascertain the SQ of the given system. Of course, you don’t want to play a BAD recording if you wish to show off what your system can do or judge the SQ. Give me a break!! Even the OP doesn’t include the recording in his definition of $uper high end systems. It’s why reviewers and many of us use recordings we’re familiar with to judge the effectiveness of a new cable, new interconnects, new tweak or the entire system. The recording is obviously INDEPENDENT of the system. The recording is actually just a TOOL for judging the SQ of a system or part of the system.
What I’m obviously referring to when I say THERE’S NO GLASS CEILING are those things you generally don’t see at shows - system burn-in for ALL electronics, speakers and cable, vibration isolation, room acoustics solutions, cryogenics, treatment of CDs, and the myriad of, you know, devices, tweaks and all the clever ideas that audiophiles are so fond of, that audiophiles ORIGINATED. Cables in the right direction, fuses in the right direction, suspended cables, Mpingo discs, Intelligent Chips, what have you. So, in fact the quest for Audio Nirvana is never ending. Unless you run out of ideas.
geoff kait
machina dynamica
advanced audio concepts
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Pete and Repeat were riding on a horse. Pete fell off. Who was left? 🏇
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Sorry to be so disagreeable but I found out that all this audio stuff is actually NOT (rpt not) asymptotic. There is no glass ceiling. There is no law of diminishing returns. The reason for my statement is that real sound quality SQ, not what you THINK is SQ, is not connected at the hip to system cost. SQ is, however, connected at the hip to how well the person can locate problems that are there in the system but not obvious and fix them. Either with tweaks, aftermarket fuses, isolation, what have you. You cannot expect ANY electronic component to make up for these “hidden problems” no matter how much you spend. That’s why a well thought out inexpensive system can sometimes beat an expensive system that is simply plugged in and played. That is why a lot of folks who have 30 years of experience in this hobby still have mediocre sound. No offense to anyone living or dead. 🧟♂️
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That’s nice but just saying that is just more marketing fluff. Where’s the argument? Where’s the meat? 🍔 For a glimpse of what I’m talking about when I talk about retrieval of INFORMATION during playback take a gander at my white paper, “What’s Wrong with CDs and Why do They Sound so Horrible?”
first parapgraph:
“Have you ever asked yourself why CDs often sound thin, undynamic, threadbare, hollow, tinny, bass shy, whimpy, rolled off, jangly, radio like, congealed, generic, uninspiring, airless and discombobulated? Here we look at some fundamental problems inherent with CD playback that might help explain why CDs frequently sound horrible.”
When you control the mail you control ..... information. - Newman
geoff kait
Machina Dynamica
Advanced Audio Concepts |
If I can be so bold those posts just preceding this one are not so much arguments as they are marketing monologues. Furthermore, it’s rather odd that you would brag about parts upgrade since there is probably no one who would disagree with that or think it outrageous. What I’m am referring to, by contrast, are issues that are not (rpt not) oft discussed, if ever. And I don’t even have to broach the very difficult and user unfriendly subjects on which a lot of my products are based since those unspeakable issues are beyond the scope of this forum. But there are certainly enough issues that ARE accessible and not too far out, as I just got through describing.
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I disagree. The real problem for audiophiles is that there are so many problems in playback, especially for digtital, and that many of the problems are either unknown or not well documented. Therefore, the motivated audiophile is forced to try to research what those problems are on line or to undertake the investigation himself. What kind of problems am I referring to? Well, without going too crazy, let’s start with background scattered laser light in CD players. Also, the vibration of the CD transport compartment itself, let alone seismic vibration, which of course is another big issue. These problems are not secret, for crying out loud. Well, some of them are but I will avoid those. What else? OK, the induced magnetic field from large transformers. And the vibration of large transformers, you know, the vibration that is direct coupled to the chassis and all th circuit boards by the four bolts holding down the transformer. And wire directionality, including fuses, power cords, all wire. See, I didn’t mention anything too crazy. 🤪
So, it’s not strictly a trial and error issue. Although that can be part of it. For example, I’ve always said trial and error for speaker placement is the wrong approach. Audio is like a big excavation, trying to retrieve the missing information, the information that is there on the recording but not in the room during playback. |
Huh? But nobody is saying all expensive audiophile products are great. In the case of Audioquest and many other audio companies, their products have a range of prices, as someone noted, including the $uper Expensive audiophile products - which is actually the subject of this thread, I.e., is anybody DISAPPOINTED WITH A MOVE TO THE SUPER EXPENSIVE HIGH END?
Obviously, as least to most dedicated audiophiles, there is a whole lot more to the hobby besides buying a bunch of expensive stuff and plugging it into the wall.
Most likely the new Audioquest Hurricane power cord at almost $2K for 2m Cord would qualify as $uper High End just based on cost.
“A rich audiophile has about as much chance of entering Audio Nirvana as a camel 🐪 has of passing through the eye 👁 of a needle.”- Old audiophile axiom
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Bingo!
besides, it doesn’t make sense that Audioquest which has been high end for a very long time suddenly went, what, MidFi. If it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. |
Everest cables by Audioquest are $21,000 and Audioquest HDMI cables are $13,000. I think that probably qualities Audioquest for the $uper High end. Obviously Audioquest sells mor3 “affordable”cables, too. I don’t know how much the new Hurricane power cord is but I have a sneaking suspicion it’s not cheap. I patiently await Bo’s write-up of the Hurricane power cord and his thinking about Cable and Power Cord Directionality.
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I actually do not find that objectionable. On an objectionability scale of 10 I’d give it a 2. |
I find it best not to ask questions to folks who’ve been in the audio hobby for a long time. In fact, as soon as someone says, “I’ve been in this hobby for 30 years and you can believe me when I say...”, I’m out. Best to avoid all the misinformation, disinformation, misconceptions, and mistaken assumptions that accrue. Way too much stove piping.
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Correcto Mundo! Nobody ever said trial and error was a good idea. I have said it wasn’t a good idea like forever for speaker placement. You have to have a method. Trial and error is like trying to solve N simultaneous equations in N + x unknowns. The best you can hope for is finding local maximums. And that’s if you’re lucky.
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It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy that the more one spends on audio the better the sound quality. The audio industry is like the car industry. The price of cars keeps going up. It’s an economic reality - businesses must continually EXPAND in customers and income. The auto industry has figured out that people will spend increasing large amounts of money on what is essentially the same product. The trick is to promote each new car model as new and improved. Whether it’s true or not. The audio industry has figured out the same thing.
There are two high ends for audio. One is in the solid grip of upgraditis, that one tends to be solidly Anti Tweak, believing that the secret to sound quality is the electronic circuit, expensive parts and “solid engineering” - in quotes. The other high end is more of a tweak-oriented group, focused on improving the sound through cleverness and thoughtfulness. THIS high end operates by assessing the weaknesses in the audio system and coming up with solutions. You know, the group that doesn’t read reviews any more. The ones who don’t buy Stereophile or The Absolute Sound anymore.
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Necessity is the mother of invention. - Old audiophile axiom
A rich man has about as much chance of getting into Audio Nirvana as a camel 🐫 has of passing through the eye 👁 of a needle. - Old audiophile axiom
Sine there is no final destination you might as well enjoy the trip. - Old audiophile axiom |
The $1 Million super system at CES 2001, which I’m pretty sure was comprised of monster Wisdom Audio speakers and a bunch of huge Plinius amplifiers sitting on a stage of the appropriate proportions, sounded, well, not..too..good. I hate to judge before all the facts are in, but I’m pretty sure throwing money, even massive amounts of it, at the problem is not the answer. I was supposed to go listen to the Million Dollar System, which had generated considerable buzz that day 🐝 with a couple of guys but I made the mistake of sticking around at two big rooms I was supporting hoping for a miracle.
Which reminds me. In the 80s they had a CES in Washington DC area and I attended a big demo of the Audio Research electronics driving the monster Infinity Reference speakers, the ones with the outboard stack of woofers for each channel. The source was a big reel to reel. The dude conducting the demo stood on the stage and alerted the audience that they were about to hear sound that was indistinguishable from live music. I cannot recall what the recording was they played but as soon as it came on everyone looked around at each other, incredulous, and raced for the EXIT doors, your humble scribe included. 🏃 🏃 🏃
"A rich man has about as much chance of attaining Audio Nirvana as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle." - old audiophile axiom
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inna
It is worth it if you are up to what is involved. And the cost will be very high, it has to be.
One assumes you’re referring to psychological costs. 😄
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Oh, well, I guess that's the way the cookie crumbles. 🍪 No offense.
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Notable quotes
"The Ford Model T is the last car you will ever own." - Henry Ford
"The iPhone is the last mobile device you will ever own." - Steve Jobs
"This is the last Audio Research preamp you will ever own." - whoever
"The Hubble Space Telescope is the last space telescope you’ll ever need." - NASA bigwig
"The Space Shuttle is the last reusable manned space vehicle you’ll ever need." Different NASA bigwig who was also quotes as saying, "The Space Shuttle is perfectly safe due to NASA's strict program of quality control and triple redundancy."
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I distinctly recall walking with John Curl to the Talon room circa 2000. If memory serves and I think it does Diana Krall was playing over the system. Ooops, did I drop a name? 🙄 Now ya got me doin' it.
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Note to self: I must strive to achieve a higher rate of name dropping in the future. 😬 |
OK, time for me to fess up. Someone asked a little while ago if anyone went the opposite direction from upgrading to a super high end system. Guilty as charged.
Two years ago I had a rather good but not terribly expensive headphone system with pure tube Woo Audio headphone Amp with all NOS Tung Sol and Sylvania tubes, a VERY modded Oppo DC player, including the Linear Power Supply mod, Analysis Plus ICs and Power Cord and Nordost Blue Heaven power cord. Oh, two count em Herbies tube dampers per tube for total of 6. I used cryo’d, naked Sennheiswr 600s with Stephan Arts cabling with that system.
Since then, just for experimentation, I went to a much simpler system based around a Sony Walkman portable CD player and Sony Walkman cassette player with Grado SR-60 headphones. I have no power cords, no interconnects and no speaker cables. I also have no power transformers, no grounding issues (since I dint have a ground), no fuses, no house AC, no big honking capacitors, no digital cable. I already got out of ye olde room acoustics game with the last system. No more teacher’s dirty looks. 😜 |
jond wrote,
"What @geoffkait calls "stove piping" I, and others, call trusting our ears."
Whoa! Hey, it's not nice to put words in someone's mouth. Stove piping means nothing of the sort. Stove piping is an Intel expression that refers to the problem that arises when multiple organizations and multiple individuals/sources come to different and contradictory conclusions regarding political situations, military actions required, probable actions/motives of individuals or states, etc. Stove piping is an undesirable situation that arises because of lack of coordination and lack of oversight. This is what happens in the audio hobby, too. It's very disorganized. It then becomes a game of, who do you believe? Follow?
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It’s true that there are a lot of variables. But variables CAN be controlled. Time of day, day of week, the weather ⛈ sunspot activity 🌞 humidity, whatever. You change ONLY ONE VARIABLE AT A TIME. Then you will know what causes the change - the one variable you changed. Hel-loo! It ain’t necessarily easy. Nobody promised you a rose garden. People climb Everest all the time. 🏔 Even though it’s not easy. Audiophiles don't even know what ALL the variables even are, for crying out loud. 😫 In order to progress you kind of have to know WHERE you are and WHERE you want to go. AND how to get there. That really is the key. 🗝 Otherwise, you’re just shooting blanks in the dark. 🔫
People don’t really seem to know where they are on the overall curve of performance or what is really possible. I know what you’re thinking: "but what about live unamplified sound?" As far as knowing where to go next they’re apparently pretty much stuck between a rock and a hard place. As I posted earlier everyone is stove piping. 🏭 Everyone reaches different conclusions. Stove piping, stove piping, stove piping, stove! Yeah!
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Re: Law of Diminishing Returns
Just to chime in on the subject of diminishing returns, I don’t actually believe there is a Law of diminishing returns for audio, there’s no hyperbolic curve, or some artificial ceiling that cannot be surpassed. "I don't think it's worth spending twice as much to get only the last 5%." 😀 What is required is thinking outside the box. Audio is an art as much as a science.
There is also the principle of "stove piping" involved here I suspect, where audiophiles develop their systems more or less in a vacuum. And each person reaches certain conclusions based on what he finds out. Each one declares he has found Audio Nirvana, yet when an independent observer listeners to those systems he discovers that they don’t sound nearly as fabulous as their owners claim or believe. In fact, by and large, they frequently sound quite bland and generic and distorted. You know, kind of like those big expensive systems like at big audio shows.
"Wow! What a view, I never thought I’d be on the summit of Everest!"
"Calm down, were only at Base Camp. We’re only half way up."
Yer a stove piper
Stove piper, stove piper, stove piper, stove
Stove piper, stove piper, stove piper, stove
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