Hi everyone, especially Thomas Heisig and Raul,
Interesting thread, - and a controversy that I would normally stay weel clear from since there is nothing to gain when these exchanges take on too much of a personal character.
Nevertheless let me add a few remarks on some points raised earlier.
Thomas, I think you should explain which Schröder model you had been listening to, the first generation of the entry level version, not the Reference model. Even the Graham 2.0 cost three times the price in Germany then. The Myabi used in this comparison was not exactly a good match for this particular arm. And, high frequency resolution, micro and macro dynamics and "ease" of reproduction(aka lack of resonances) are highly dependent on proper setup. Any comparison between arms will first and foremost depend upon the person who set up the arms. Another point is the mating of arms to turntables, or rather the mounting bases(and their damping characteristics. Put a Graham arm(a good product for shure) on a metal armboard it will sound subjectively "faster" compared to the same arm and table equipped with an acrylic armboard.
What people perceive as better "attack" is mostly the difference in the resonance spectrum(accentuating higher frequency peaks)excited by the cart tracking the grooves.
My arms do not depend upon the dissipation of energy in the armboard as most others(practically all unipivot arms) do. Listen to a Reference arm with any cart with your ear close to the groove and the volume down. Ever heard less "needle talk"? Needle talk is nothing but parts of the cart and arm getting excited and emmiting audible proof of structural resonances. When some people call the sound of my arms "relaxed" I take it as a compliment. Just like real music the actual sound(if unampified) isn´t tiring, but can be VERY dynamic, and yes, I do attend concerts often(Berlin is hard to beat inthat respect). Slow sound when using one of my arms? Maybe it´s time to look for a better table then..
A Rega arm is no equal to my arm. As terrific a bargain it may be, the multiple solder connections in the wiring alone are prohibitiv of true first rate resolution.
All other pivoted arms have friction(or, more importantly "stiction" prone bearings, only the Well Tempered Arm is a zero friction design, that is if it didn´t have to rely on silicon fluid for damping and resistance against deflection. It´s antiskating compensation is flawed though(topic for another thread...).
The system of the customer with the two Ref.arms is one best characterized by the term "construction site". Frequently changed components, mediocre speakers, the setup is, well, less than optimal. Certainly no base to judge the quality of a single component.
Raul, have you had the chance to do any comparison between a Graham, Triplanar or Vector arm with a Reference? Until that has happened, it will be understandable that you get hammered for your well thought out but somewhat "the principal speaks to his pupils"-sounding remarks.
Tonearms do have a sonic signature, one that can be influenced by the choice of mounting board but is never disappearing entirely.
Music reproduction, the perception of quality is such a personal thing that rarely if ever will two people only(let alone half a dozen) agree on the virtues of a system entirely. But if more people than not agree on certain qualities that makes listening to music more enjoyable for them, then so be it.
Oh, and Thomas,-one last word about pricing. If you think anyone could replicate these arms for cheap, -HAHAHA.. you´d be surprised how many difficulties they´d encouter. Not to mention the cost of patenting, fees, hours spent on couseling potential customers and the share of dealers /distributors. Try it and you´ll look for another job soon.
Anyway, no hard feelings guys..
Cheerio,
Frank Schröder
Interesting thread, - and a controversy that I would normally stay weel clear from since there is nothing to gain when these exchanges take on too much of a personal character.
Nevertheless let me add a few remarks on some points raised earlier.
Thomas, I think you should explain which Schröder model you had been listening to, the first generation of the entry level version, not the Reference model. Even the Graham 2.0 cost three times the price in Germany then. The Myabi used in this comparison was not exactly a good match for this particular arm. And, high frequency resolution, micro and macro dynamics and "ease" of reproduction(aka lack of resonances) are highly dependent on proper setup. Any comparison between arms will first and foremost depend upon the person who set up the arms. Another point is the mating of arms to turntables, or rather the mounting bases(and their damping characteristics. Put a Graham arm(a good product for shure) on a metal armboard it will sound subjectively "faster" compared to the same arm and table equipped with an acrylic armboard.
What people perceive as better "attack" is mostly the difference in the resonance spectrum(accentuating higher frequency peaks)excited by the cart tracking the grooves.
My arms do not depend upon the dissipation of energy in the armboard as most others(practically all unipivot arms) do. Listen to a Reference arm with any cart with your ear close to the groove and the volume down. Ever heard less "needle talk"? Needle talk is nothing but parts of the cart and arm getting excited and emmiting audible proof of structural resonances. When some people call the sound of my arms "relaxed" I take it as a compliment. Just like real music the actual sound(if unampified) isn´t tiring, but can be VERY dynamic, and yes, I do attend concerts often(Berlin is hard to beat inthat respect). Slow sound when using one of my arms? Maybe it´s time to look for a better table then..
A Rega arm is no equal to my arm. As terrific a bargain it may be, the multiple solder connections in the wiring alone are prohibitiv of true first rate resolution.
All other pivoted arms have friction(or, more importantly "stiction" prone bearings, only the Well Tempered Arm is a zero friction design, that is if it didn´t have to rely on silicon fluid for damping and resistance against deflection. It´s antiskating compensation is flawed though(topic for another thread...).
The system of the customer with the two Ref.arms is one best characterized by the term "construction site". Frequently changed components, mediocre speakers, the setup is, well, less than optimal. Certainly no base to judge the quality of a single component.
Raul, have you had the chance to do any comparison between a Graham, Triplanar or Vector arm with a Reference? Until that has happened, it will be understandable that you get hammered for your well thought out but somewhat "the principal speaks to his pupils"-sounding remarks.
Tonearms do have a sonic signature, one that can be influenced by the choice of mounting board but is never disappearing entirely.
Music reproduction, the perception of quality is such a personal thing that rarely if ever will two people only(let alone half a dozen) agree on the virtues of a system entirely. But if more people than not agree on certain qualities that makes listening to music more enjoyable for them, then so be it.
Oh, and Thomas,-one last word about pricing. If you think anyone could replicate these arms for cheap, -HAHAHA.. you´d be surprised how many difficulties they´d encouter. Not to mention the cost of patenting, fees, hours spent on couseling potential customers and the share of dealers /distributors. Try it and you´ll look for another job soon.
Anyway, no hard feelings guys..
Cheerio,
Frank Schröder