Has anyone been able to define well or measure differences between vinyl and digital?

grislybutter

we are wired to appreciate sound based on our memories of the sound we grew up on ...

What makes you think that?

johnread57

... we know the dynamic range of cd’s is larger than vinyl ...

We know that CD has a greater potential dynamic range than LP but in practice, the opposite is often the case.  Just look at the DR database.

LP has much better HF than CD.

There are so many errors in @fair's word salad that it makes my head spin. Kudos to @thespeakerdude for having the patience to sort them out.

One thing to consider about digital audio is that the math that makes it work is the same math that explains the squiggles on an LP: the Fourier Transform. That's not just a theory, but a theorem; it can be proven with math. In that sense, it's perfect, and I'm saying that as an analog guy.

This video provides an excellent explanation and actual demonstration of how digital audio works, and how it doesn't.

fair

Mathematically, Fourier Analysis is a theory based on integral transforms with harmonic kernels.

No, Fourier Analysis is not a theory. It's a theorem; it can be shown to be perfect with math. Unless you can show a fault in the actual math, all of your hand waving and word salad is for naught.

Again, I'm an analog guy. But if we seek better digital, it can't be done without understanding how digital works. I'm all for hi-res and everything it takes to get the best out of it. But let's not pretend that somehow the underlying premise of digital audio is somehow broken. It isn't. Its problems are elsewhere.

fair

... A mathematical theorem is like a part of a legal contract: its words have precise meaning, often unexpectedly different from their everyday meaning; and it has small print ...

A math theorem is a principle that can be proven with math. The Fourier Transform is a theorem. It has been proven by both math and in actual implementation - it's the basis of both digital and analog audio. Your alternative paradigms aren't consistent with Fourier. You're probably having fun with your fanciful imaginings but that's all they are. If you want to make actual progress you'll have to accept the math. Anything else is futile and more than a bit silly.

thespeakerdude

... accept that properly implemented digital, even CD quality, has no sound or so little to be ignored ...

Sorry, no can do. Setting aside the problems and fallacies that are common to typical audio blind testing (this addresses some of them), there have been tests that show hi-res audibility. Here's an example via AES.

... accept that vinyl and other analog formats have a particular sound ... and that we like it because it has those sounds that appeal to us ... figure out what those sounds are and encourage audio companies to work on them and recording and mixing engineers to make better use of them ...

If your claim were true audiophiles wouldn't work so hard to reduce the noise and distortions to which analog is prone. On paper, those specs often aren't the equal of digital, but that's moot if they're near or below the level of audibility.

thespeakerdude

Can we agree that if there is a difference between CD quality done right and high resolution that the difference is very small, and hard or very hard to detect?

This is a tricky question because "very small" is subjective and the extent to which differences are audible vary depending on the content. I have a digital recorder that can do 24/96, and the difference between that and 16/44.1 can be noticeable. A lot depends on what you're recording.

The difference between vinyl and CD is bigger, much bigger than CD and high res.

I'm not sure I agree. I know it annoys some of my fellow analogphiles when I say that the very best LP playback and the best CD playback sound very, very close. But that can't happen without a lot of effort and expense on the LP side.

Every vinyl versus digital argument seems to devolve into an attempt to find some mysterious flaw with digital that cannot be supported with math, engineering, nor experiment.

I explained previously in this thread that the math behind digital audio - Fourier Transform and Shannon/Nyquist - is perfect and can be proven using math. Digital's flaws are elsewhere.

The differences between CD and vinyl are not small.

If we're talking high-end LP playback, the differences are much smaller than many believe. Many people are stunned when they hear first class LP playback for the first time.

thespeakerdude

I do think vinyl done well, excellent pressing (clean), good turntable, good cartridge, all properly setup sounds very good. I don't think you need to spend $50K either. $10K maybe.

If you're talking about new prices, I don't think $10K can get you there. And you'll probably need to spend more than that for a phono stage. But I absolutely agree about the importance of a clean record - that makes all the difference in the world and is the reason I use an easy "one button" ultrasonic LP cleaning system.

I also think if you listen to that side by side with CD, you will always be able to differentiate them, even if its the slightest tick.

Probably true.