Halcyonics under my tt. Wow


I just put my third, too expensive but wonderful, Halcyonic active isolation base under my Shindo Labs tt and am just overwhelmed by what I am hearing. I doubt if I will sleep tonight having 50 LPs that I "must" hear.

The ambient detail and realism is just shocking.

It is one of the great tragedies of audio that this device cannot be made somewhere for under $2000; I think they would sell hundreds. I know I would have one for every componnent. Mine was used.
tbg
I'm glad your new base is working for you, but I must caution everyone that bases are very system dependent, and none should be used (especially expensive ones) that doesn't come with a money back guarantee of satisfaction.
a marginally inflated inner tube under a shelf that supports the source equipment (or preamp) has consistently proven a major winner. --its not like norm's, but the principle is the same: removing microvibrations in the line level gear is well worth the investment (whether they be norm level, or $6 for those who won't step up, like me).

(incidentally, i really wonder sometimes why we audiophiles change gear when we've yet to fully remedy to critical problems endemic in every rig: AC quality & microvibrations).

enjoy
Rhyno, how dearly I wish any of the air spring devices I have tried approached the active Halcyonic device. I do totally agree that too many totally ignore micro-vibrations and crap on their ac line.

With the Halcyonics under my Shindo Labs, I doubt that the Continuum Audio Labs Caliburn can equal it.

Stringreen, I know that one reviewer suggested that the Halcyonic base might interact with the suspension of a turntable, but I doubt if any suspension on a tt is as fast as the Halcyonic.
a marginally inflated inner tube under a shelf that supports the source equipment (or preamp) has consistently proven a major winner. --its not like norm's, but the principle is the same: removing microvibrations in the line level gear is well worth the investment (whether they be norm level, or $6 for those who won't step up, like me).

(incidentally, i really wonder sometimes why we audiophiles change gear when we've yet to fully remedy to critical problems endemic in every rig: AC quality & microvibrations).

enjoy
Tbg, I stumbled across the Halcyonics website while looking for some equipment for my lab. (I'm a virologist.) The possible use of their products in audio did not escape me. Can you tell me/us which model you've got and what it's weight limits are and how much you paid? Have you ever tried a Vibraplane? The Halcyonics looks to be similar in that they claim similar benefits (i.e., isolation in all planes of motion, something you do not get with a $6 inner tube). Also, NO resonance frequency! How cool is that? If you can really equal a Caliburn or the like for the cost of a Garrard plus ~2Gs, that's quite a bargain.
Tbg - did you have a chance to try it under a pre or a CDP ?
Lewm,

I think Tbg is bemoaning the fact that these DON'T cost around $2k. From what I remember, these are around $8,000 for a typical size component. They certainly do look like they provide excellent isolation. As with any audio purchase, the potential buyer does his/her own cost benefit analysis.

From what you said, even at $8k, if you can take a $10,000 analog front end and equal or surpass a Caliburn, you may not be doin too bad.

I have an SME 30 on a Silent Running Auido base so I am not too sure I would experience the same degree of improement. Then again, I've been wrong enough times in the past . . . .
Here's an option for under $3000.
Lewm, I have an experimental psychologist friend who did buy one of their larger units for his lab. You can google halcyoniics.de if Audiogon doesn't allow my thread. http://www.halcyonics.de/en/index.php

I think its not having a resonant frequency is key to why it is so exceptional. There are no other such devices. I have tried multiple other inner tube (home made and other), magnetic (SONY and SAP), and other spring devices, such as Tvad is recommending without the magic of this device.

I don't really know what the price is presently as it may be increasing from the $8000 retail price. Mine was used. When I bought my first Model 1 it was $6000. The US importer was hoping to make it less expensive, such as in the US or eastern Europe, but that has not proven possible. Fmpnd is right that I am bemoaning its cost.

Elberoth2, yes the first place I used it was under a cd player. Presently I use my Model 1 under my dac. I tried using my Exemplar Musicserver on the Model 1 with the dac on top, but the second piece suffers. I think the Halcyonics removes the noise from the unit directly on top of it as well as isolating it. If you can remove the feet of this device, it will sound better placed directly on top the Halcyonics. My Shindo Labs/Garrard 301 had expensive optional feet which I initially used when placing it on a Halcyonics. Fortunately, I experimented and removed them placing the tt directly on the Halcyonics. It was far superior used this way.

What shocked me was the benefits of a solid state amp on the Micro 40. Clement Perry told me to try this.

Fmpnd, I think a reviewer found the Halcyonics interacted with his turntable suspension. My tt has none, so I have no experience of note.
As stated by Stringreen these isolation devises are very system dependent.Therefore before I take the plunge and possibly make another costly mistake I ask:Has anyone had experience with any isolation shelve beneath a Kuzma Stabi Reference Turntable ?
Tbg,where are your other two Halcyonics placed
18 months ago i had the Halcyonics in my system for one evening.....unbelieveable! and that was compared to my Grand Prix Audio Monaco SE with formula shelves which is among the very best passive isolation approaches. i had it under my digital transport. it focused the sound in a perfectly natural way that was a revelation of what is possible.

i then spent quite a bit of time investigating this approach. if you can afford it; you would want every piece of gear you own, including your speakers, on an active isolation platform. these platforms were developed for use with an electron microscope where there is no place to hide from the truth.

the 'Minus K' is a passive device and not nearly in the performance realm of an active device like the Halcyonics.

if you really want to understand this technology, you can read a tutorial for the Herzan 'Table Stable' which is the same technology as the Halcyonics, but a generation better.

tutorial, read the whole damn thing

to optimize active isolation one must eliminate any passive isolation since it defeats the effectiveness of active isolation. the tutorial speaks to putting the lab on a ground level with a concrete floor......since a building (let alone a suspended floor or rack with active isolation) basically has it's own frequency.

active isolation does have a limit of effectivness at higher frequencies.

BTW, the only way the benefit of active isolation is system dependent is with the limitations of one's floor, rack or cable influences. every piece of gear will sound considerably better with active isolation properly applied.
I've talked to the folks at Halcyonics, and they say that the upper limit of operating frequency is ~ 200Hz, which makes sense, because active vibration control relies on a feedback mechanism, where time delay is inevitable between vibration sensing and compensatory actuation.

What this means is that if we attenuate/eliminate vibrations under 200Hz in our audio components, great sonic improvements can be expected.

Regards,
David.
Wonnjun, I inadvertently got my turntable vibrating back and forth yesterday and the Halcyonics sought to dampen the movement. I have notices that women's voices, at least in my system, excite its correction more than men's, which makes your new information striking.

The Micro series can display the four of the vertical sensors or the four horizontal sensors. At the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest which in between two Interstate routes, they were quite active. When I move about on my suspended floor, they are quite active also.
Tbg,

Thanks for the report. I have been considering the Halcyonics. I have a 140# turntable (Galibier Stelvio) sitting on an Equarack with a Grand Prix Platform. The Equarack made a huge improvement in the sound of my system. How much impact would you anticipate with the Halcyonics? Would I have to use a separate stand for the turntable?

Thanks in advance for your input.
Jazdoc, I fully expect you would hear a great improvement. I had my Shindo Labs on an Acapella Silencio base with the special feet I bought for the Shindo. The base was on a Mana Reference rack. It was already well isolated, I thought. I am on a second floor, however.

If the Galibier Stelvio on top the Halcyonics will fit or allow you to reach to put on a record, I suspect your existing rack would work.

I demoed the Halcyonics today merely turning it off and listening and then turning it on. The guy's jaw dropped. Once before I had a friend up and we listened for two hours before I noticed that the Halcyonic under the cd player was off. He cursed me as the improvement moved the sound, he said, from good to the best he had heard from digital.
It'd be quite an ear-opener if you added some basic room treatments at the first order reflection points and on the hard glass/plaster wall behind your speakers.

Minimum results likely on an order of magnitude equal to the $8000 Halcyonic platforms.

Inexpensive, too.
Nowhere near the magnitude of the Halcyonic even using the best treatments I have found, the Acoustic Revive QR-8s. But I agree that room treatments, if not overdone, which is all too common, can improve your imaging. I also don't know about doing so cheaply either.
07-05-08: Tbg
Nowhere near the magnitude of the Halcyonic even using the best treatments I have found, the Acoustic Revive QR-8s.

If you say so.

I have never in your system photos any real room treatments of the type that are commonly found in studios, dedicated listening rooms and theaters: baffles, diffusers, drapes, etc. Look at Mikelavigne's system, or others for examples.

Just think of the possibilities if you were to try some treatments of the standard variety; the level of detail, nuance and resolution you'd gain by knocking out the spurious back wall and side wall reflections.

Wall hangings, baffles and the like can cost in the hundreds, not thousands.

You have certainly invested large sums in esoteric room tweaks, and that's your prerogative. You should certainly spend your dough how you wish.
Tvad, you are correct in seeing no diffusers (professional or otherwise), tube traps, defectors, Room Lens, Helmhost resonators, or absorbing foam for a LEDE room. They have all come and gone as did digital equalization. One pair of the Hallographs remain behind me. The other fought with my H-Cat Wave Timing Control and is now in the closet. I have also used the Shun Muck Mpingo disks, Combac and Marigold wall treatments, and the quite effective Acoustic Revive QR-8s which though tiny nevertheless have mighty impact. You are also right that these all cost far less than the Halcyonics. I have heard Rive designed rooms and frankly would have none here even were they not so costly.

But your real argument is that I have failed to focus on what has the biggest effect. I would say that the Halcyonics is far more important than any of the above in their impact on my sound. I should again note that my rave is about the impact of the third Halcyonics that I recently got. I thought highly of the contributions of the first and second also, but this one is just breathtaking. My room may be quite good not by design but by luck. It was designed to be a game room.
But your real argument is that I have failed to focus on what has the biggest effect.
Yes.
I would say that the Halcyonics is far more important than any of the above in their impact on my sound.
Tbg (System | Threads | Answers)
I wouldn't expect you would say otherwise.
Nor I you, but at least now you don't think I am blithely ignoring room interactions. I think also that you grossly underestimate the Halcyonics for whatever reason.
I think also that you grossly underestimate the Halcyonics for whatever reason.
Tbg (System | Threads | Answers)
Not true at all.

However, seeing your room and the hard surfaces that surround your components, I cushion your revelations with the belief that you could reap significant benefits through substantially less expensive measures.

Were you to treat your room with basic acoustic treatments, perhaps with the guidance of a professional such as Rives Audio (no relation...just comes immediately to mind), I suspect you would reap stunning benefits from your more esoteric tweaks. That's the bottom line.

I suspect you are accustomed to, and enjoy, the live, "bouncy" sound of your room, and subsequent adjustments improve what you hear in the present paradigm. I also suspect that traditional acoustic treatments likely shift the paradigm to something that's unfamiliar, less bouncy, and less enjoyable to you.

Thus enters YMMV.
Bouncy, bouncy.......ahhhhhh,ohhhh that does it. ;)
Your are killing me Tvad.
Tbg....you must be pissed......right???????
Bouncy, as in the sound waves bounce off hard surfaces thus creating a very live sound, versus a room utilizing acoustic treatments resulting in a more controlled sound.

Just an observation. No hidden meaning or disrespect intended.
Yea right.
Tbg, I wrote what I meant. No disrespect intended.

Thanks.
Tbg, very interesting. Thank you for sharing this great information. I will try to get more information, but this is a very serious product.
Tvad, as we know from previous exchanges, I proceed by trying things and you persist with a theory of what works. I respect your process even though I have no confidence in it, as I have tried it in the past and found it lacking. I merely ask that you not dismiss my writing about my experiences in audio as wrong. I doubt if you will ever find much of interest in my postings, but others do. It is for them that I post, as well as my excitement with what has happened.

I would very much like to have Winston Ma's room, but cannot afford it. I have had to make do with the room I have and others can tell you how it sounds. I am certainly happy with it.


07-06-08: Tbg
Tvad, as we know from previous exchanges, I proceed by trying things and you persist with a theory of what works.
I utilize the techniques I have mentioned, so it's not simply theory but rather practical application of established acoustic engineering principles that are explainable and repeatable. No magic. No mystery. No quasi science.

I respect your process even though I have no confidence in it.
No confidence in science-based design principles? Your Halcyon is designed using proven, explainable engineering. It's why it works so well.
Tvad, I know how you feel, and you should know that I do not feel "established engineering principles" are adequate. The Halcyonic people did try something new and it works. It is not just a rehash of the old spring ideas. I don't respect your holding to inadequate engineering dogma. If something works, there must be a reason even if engineering dogma suggests it doesn't. Suggesting that it is belief in magic or is unscientific is just rhetoric and should hardly be convincing to anyone.

But again, we have been through this before and it has nothing to do with this thread, so I beg you to just let it drop.
07-06-08: Tbg
...you should know that I do not feel "established engineering principles" are adequate.
Yet Halcyonics utilizes established engineering principles to design their isolation solutions. You have heard amazing results from a product based on science and engineering, yet you dismiss science and engineering as inadequate.

A conundrum.
No conundrum for me. The science that I knew as an undergraduate has changed a great deal in 50 years. Hopefully, we will continue to learn more, such as why quartz can have such a positive effect in some places and such a bad effect elsewhere. Also, Halcyonics, as I said twice before, ignored the conventional ideas of isolation and sought active correction with no resonant frequency. They hardly reflect your position for utilizing established engineering principles. They went where no man had gone before.
They hardly reflect your position for utilizing established engineering principles. They went where no man had gone before.
Tbg (System | Threads | Answers)
You're wrong.

They utilized principles of problem definition, solution using computer aided design and prototypes, performance testing and product refinement, and production planning.

Established engineering. Check their website for more info.
Tvad, I'm sorry, but I must disagree. They were innovative rather than choosing the well trodden path. You have got to give them credit for thinking outside of the box as you seem inclined to do.

I will respond no further as I know all of this is pointless and I have made others aware of my experiences.
Innovation comes from knowledge of what has gone before, and applying that knowledge to create something better.

I never said Halcyon followed the well trodden path. I said they utilized science, math and engineering to produce an effective product that works. Fortunately for you, you tossed a dart using your methodology of trying many products, and you hit an excellent product that had high probability of working for you...just as it will have a high probability of working in most rooms and environments.

Halcyon uses engineering to solve problems and create solutions.
As I said you are wrong about the lack of total scientific knowledge and it mere proper application. It is typical of engineers. The notion that you could have a nonresonant isolation base is innovation with so many other following the well trodden path as you would have all do, such as having a Rives room, aborbers, etc. Been there; done that; and got the Tshirt.
07-06-08: Tbg
As I said you are wrong about the lack of total scientific knowledge and it mere proper application.
Huh? When did I discuss lack of total scientific knowledge?

I support the Halcyonic unit as being innovative and effective, but the designers did not come upon it by divine intervention I can assure you.

I encourage innovation, and despite what you write about my recommendations, I have never suggested that all should follow only your so-called well trodden path, but I do encourage folks to consider proven techniques.

The well trodden path of acoustic treatment seems to work pretty well for professional sound and film studios. If you've tried the techniques, then you can certainly dismiss them as unappealing to your aesthetic.

I thought you were no longer going to participate in the discussion?
Tbg - what is the purpose of placing Halcyonics platform on top of a Mana rack ? Does it sound better that way ?
It makes the Doppler radar preamplifer more effective.

See shakti stones, teleportation tweak, liquid ceramic cables, clever clocks, brilliant pebbles in the poster's history.

This is classic Lost in Space.

Where's Will?

Danger.
Elberoth2, I honestly don't know. I have used the reference Mana for years, and it is a convenient height.

Tvad, when did I say the Halcyonic designers experienced "divine intervention?"

When did I say I wanted people to follow "my so-clled well trodden path?"

What does my "aesthetic" mean? Is using tried and true "professional sound and film studios" the only aesthetic that people should consider. What happened to science?

Bill, go back under the rock.
When did I say I wanted people to follow "my so-called well trodden path?
Apparently we both need to work on our syntax.

What does my "aesthetic" mean?
It refers to your personal perception and judgment of how you see and perceive the world.

Why am I supplying definitions to a Phd?

Is using tried and true "professional sound and film studios" the only aesthetic that people should consider.
This is not an aesthetic. This is a technique. It's not the only technique that should be tried, but it's one that should be high on the list.

What happened to science?
Acoustic treatment used in professional sound and film studios is all about science. Acoustics: the science of sound and vibration.

Here's a primer from Nagata Acoustics, the acoustical engineering firm of Disney Hall in Los Angeles.

Halcyonics is ALL about engineering. Check it out.
Halcyonics uses modern design tools, e.g. 3-D CAD modeling software. The key components of the active isolation system, sensors and actuators are positioned in the mechanical setup according to the modular design concept. Simulation tools are used to adapt controller parameters to the customized configuration.

How about that Wimbledon men's final? Phenomenal!
I was rootin' for Fedderer...oh well.
Agreed, and I don't usually watch tennis, although I once went to Wimbledon when I lived in London.
too bad Clarke doesn't come to the 'Gon......he would have eaten this up.

:)
One of the best finals ever! Great to see a fantastic rivalry again. I hope Nadal goes more world wide now.
Contacted Halcyonics today and got this interesting info:

"Thank you for your inquiry about the Halcyonics Micro 40 series. (...) Laufer Teknik is the worldwide distributor of the Halcyonics line of products to the high-end audio/video industries. Halcyonics now has a version of its active isolation platform designed for the high-end audio industry called the "Silencer" which is based upon the same exact platform as the Micro series but in a size and with characteristcs well suited to audiophiles. You might see some introductions to it on Halcyonics web site:

http://www.halcyonics-audio.com

as well as my own:

http://www.lauferteknik.com

(...)"

Looks way cooler than the standard Micro 40.
Elberoth2, The Silencer is the same mechanism as the Micros, but is not self-leveling. I was their effort to hold down the cost. The Silencer reminds me of the Model 1. I am told leveling is easy.
How much?
Lewm, I cannot tell you. All I can suggest is to call Laufer Teknic.
Are Halcyonics located in Germany or elsewhere outside the US? (I don't think so.) If not, why did they choose a German distributor for the whole world? That very fact will add a lot of cost for US customers, I would think. Surely most of their real business is done with US-based science and industry, I would guess. I guess I'm guessing wrong.