Grounding with a Earth box?


OK so help be understand something.   I understand the value of grounding equipment, but what is the value of having a woodbox with salt, earth, minerals etc  do for grounding?  How is supposed to work or be better?


brubin
I got no clue what you're talking about.. BUT I'm pretty thick.. What are you saying, they sell boxes full of different soil compositions and say is provides a "Better Ground"?

Regards
How is supposed to work or be better?


"How?" is the refuge of scoundrels. "Does?" is all that matters.
here is an example 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOVfFLTXB3k

do a search for audiophile grounding box or  wood grounding box   to find more.  

It’s just one more scam of many in the audio world. The only reason these scams work is because all someone has to claim is “ I hear a difference “ ....all that science you speak of is useless as long as I can hear the difference!    Well, Ok, I guess it’s game over
"How?" is the refuge of scoundrels. "Does?" is all that matters.

We admit, you made us laugh. It is hilarious.
brubin,

The OCD guy gave you the recipe, why not build it and report your impressions? 
You're missing my point.  This is not one guy making a box -  its an item sold by retailers.   My question is how does work and is better than true ground?  Otherwise, why is ay one doing it?
I put cat litter in a beer can with a wire and it works.

I can gear the difference...

some of this stuff is crazy ass snake oil.
^^^^or it can be inexpensive trial for $390, 

https://www.thecableco.com/minimus.html

case closed!
So per the website https://www.entreq.com/products/ground-boxes-17667704

it supposes to lower the noise floor since the home electrical system is full of interference.  
I was thinking if this is true - then why not just add a new ground rod and bring it into the house (if possible) ?   A ground rod and wire would cost less than $50 vs a box of dirt and minerals.    Any thoughts? 
well it can be expensive snake oil - https://www.thecableco.com/accessories/grounding-devices/olympus-tellus.html

$9,260 USD
Come on, see it from the positive side.

It is.......(Guaranteed lowest advertised price)
Where was this on The silliest tweak thread? After this, Hallographs start making sense.
The box is from the same company that makes vibb eaters -  cant make this up ...or can I?

thecableco.com/vibbeaters.html
These guys, probably just a guy with phenomenal sense of humor, are running to win the prize of some sort. And they/he may make some money along the way.
All grounding schemes from component to earth have different levels of impedance (ground potential). We know this much.
By no means am I an expert, but by wiring each component’s chassis (earth ground) to the grounding box and adjusting the settings, the theory is that an equal impedance to ground can be achieved.

https://www.synergisticresearch.com/isolation/ground-isolation/grounding-block/

http://www.graniteaudio.com/zero/index.html

Where’s millercarbon when you need him?

I believe it's a way to simulate star-grounding after the fact.

"Where’s millercarbon when you need him?"

In the room next door. He is finishing in room 4 and will be with you in a moment.
I think the alternative to such boxes is having a solid rod planted deep in the ground outside of your house with a ground wire running to a single grounding point for all of your gear.  Why this is important, I don't know.  But, I do know it does affect how a system sounds.

I heard a demonstration of the Nordost grounding system.  It consisted of such a box to which all components are connected via a run of wire from an unused input to the grounding box.  Nordost supplied wires with all sorts of alternative connector plugs to fit that unused input (RCA, XLR, BNC, etc.).  With the grounding installed, the biggest change in sound was to the imaging of the system -instruments and vocalist seemed to float more freely in space and seemed to be actually present in the room.  The decay of notes also seemed to be more obvious and natural sounding instead of sounding cut off.  I liked what I heard. 

I did not get to hear it in my own system and did not ask for an in-home demonstration because my amplifier does not have an unused input.  I was told that a chassis grounding point was NOT an alternative to an unused input for this grounding scheme.

“Why use our Ground Box’s ?

You will get an improvement in dynamic’s, a lower noise floor and more natural flow in the sound.”

Is there no Advertising Standards Authority to challenge this sort of thing?

(Not so much the dodgy claims. I’m much more concerned about the use of an apostrophe for a plural. This has to be stopped!)


"I’m much more concerned about the use of an apostrophe for a plural. This has to be stopped!"

Fire the interpreter!

This was the original: ”Varför använda våra marklådor?"

The Ground Zero uses a wire attached to a ground post or the chassis of the components. I tried it and it seemed to smooth out the highs, that's all.

@larryi 
I believe the active blocks use the negative of an RCA jack as ground, and the ground from an XLR input then they're tied to the ground block. Possibly also using the neutral.



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A QUESTION?

If the neutral and the ground are tied together at this box, how does that work for noise? The ground is the garbage collector right? Am I trying to dump the noise through the ground? What stop STUFF from going backwards? I mean AC is doing the Cha, Cha, Cha, RIGHT, back and forth but always towards the source, or the ground? OR Towards the source and THEN to ground or neutral or BOTH..

This is what is messing with me. What stops it (noise) from going BACK into the circuit. In simple terms. Where is the directional gadget?

I’m thinking of running a common shielded very small flexible (antenna lead maybe), to a common star. I want to run a second lug to earth.
I’m going to bridge between the TWO. What make it go in ONE direction?

Does the ground know to suck out the noise? OR is the path of least resistance thing come into play? (MAN did I wake up foggy). :-)
So this box is a "BETTER" collector of GROUND? (as if it were a thing)
I dunno!!

Regards
Post removed 
All grounding schemes from component to earth have different levels of impedance (ground potential). We know this much.
By no means am I an expert, but by wiring each component’s chassis (earth ground) to the grounding box and adjusting the settings, the theory is that an equal impedance to ground can be achieved.

https://www.synergisticresearch.com/isolation/ground-isolation/grounding-block/

http://www.graniteaudio.com/zero/index.html

Where’s millercarbon when you need him?

millercarbon was early on the scene:
"How?" is the refuge of scoundrels. "Does?" is all that matters.
Don't take that the wrong way. Not saying "how" doesn't matter at all. But we all know, or should, the tremendous number of people who use "how" as an excuse to avoid even trying to find out if it "does". Not to belabor the point but instead of simply trying and listening and finding out they dig in and fortify and argue to the death, never giving any credence to the fact a whole bunch of people are saying yes indeed it really does work.  

The hallograph thing right now today is being ridiculed by one of the prime examples of closed-minded foot stamping on the ground stubborn insistence we prove "how" before he will even consider "does". That is what I mean by scoundrels.

The hallograph, the ground box, and a whole bunch of other seemingly silly stuff all have one thing in common: they are plausible. That's not saying they DO work, but rather that if you know enough about the physics and electronics of sound it is easy to see how they COULD work.

We never do prove if something works by thinking and talking. That is the realm of scoundrels. We prove if something works with testing by trial and error. The exemplar of a scoundrel is georgehifi. The exemplar of a tester is Chuck Yeager. I trust at least some of you are able to discern the difference.

So how exactly is it plausible for a box of dirt to lower the noise floor? Well, lowrider57 is right. Just please don't shoot me over it. 

The way I think of it, the environment is saturated with all sorts of electromagnetic radiation. We like to call it RFI but the R stands for radio and that means megaherz but electromagnetic radiation spans a spectrum it is not all radio frequency so I like to keep an open mind and think of it as just plain old electromagnetic radiation.  

Now if you know your EE101 then you know whenever any electromagnetic field crosses a wire it induces a current in that wire. This is how transformers, generators, phono cartridges, etc work. Happens with every wire. Every bit of metal, really. Every wire and metal in your system then is like an antenna channeling noise into your music.  

So that is one way the earth ground box can work, as a sort of drain for this unwanted noise. Think of the noise as rain. The more drains the less water on the floor. Most of us have a great big one right in the middle of the room. That's your normal earth ground, the 3rd prong on the plug. Doesn't mean a little one over in the corner won't help.  

But then we have the problem of the floor never being perfectly flat. The slope of the floor is impedance. If the floor was perfectly flat, the electrical impedance, the resistance of this tiny current going to ground was perfectly equal everywhere, then we could use lots and lots of drains no problem. But it is not. Some floors slope every which way. When this happens if you have more than one drain you get water (current) sloshing around and what do we call that? Everyone all together now: ground loop hum!

But there's another less well understood way the earth box could work. Notice some of these boxes they are telling you to fill them with different minerals and stuff. There's people like mahgister putting rocks on wires. What is up with that? Are these things related?  

I think they are. Certainly plausible. Remember, the signal is not just in the wire. It is a fluctuating field. It emanates all over the place. These probably are all nothing more than different ways of tuning, or what mahgister calls embedding, the system to its environment.

With this one, you don't have to spend hardly a dime to try it out. Shovel some dirt, sand, rocks or whatever into a tupperware bin, stick a wire in it, connect the other end to your whatever. Go and listen. You will see.

Beats the hell out of being a scoundrel.

@millercarbon, I hope you realise I was serious when I asked, where's MC. I know you think outside the box and might have a theory.

Now my question, how do we know that the box only contains dirt or sand? Could there be some of the elements used by Bybee and other "snake oil" developers?


That is a pretty interesting view MC,  I'm going to add optimistic, BUT I'll buy the plausible, all the way..  I'm all about the tweak, to a point.
I'm out of there when the ol "Necromancer" and the chanting begins though..

IF I could bring myself to build the thing and give up one of my prize cigar boxes, that is the only question left.

I'll give it a shot, what do you think, I got Goat shi$, Chicken shi$, rabbit shi$, dog shi$, shall I go on.. Oh Oh and a nice big quartz dead center of that U shaped conductor.  Where does it go once it's collected a load?

Filter change every now and then? Though I jest, I'm serious, VERY serious..  I guess it's a filter (collector) of sorts.

I'm thinkin, liquid, how conductive is that? Say H2O ph 6.8 ROed.
I can't use the cigar box can I?

I think the whole star ground DUMP is a great idea. I think it should still be tied to the House earth bonding, AGAIN what stop it from going backwards... Does it suck it out? MC you say the floor is uneven, ok we need a floor drain, right? What makes it go that >>>>>>> direction, and not <<<<<<<<<< direction?

Why does it go into that box and not come back out.. I'm a mechanic.. It has to be plausible, OK...

This is a discussion fellas... LEARN... I am...

Regards

Vibb Eater Models:

  • Ultra: 2.2Lbs Each (Ideal for sources and preamps)
  • Mini: 4.4Lbs Each (For gear up to 35Lbs)
  • Midi: 6.6Lbs Each (For gear up to 65Lbs)
  • Maxi: 8.8Lbs Each (For gear up to 75Lbs)
  • Jumbo: 14.3Lbs Each (For gear up to 85Lbs)
  • Apollo XX: 38.5Lbs Each (For gear over 85Lbs)


Bags of ROCKS, 160. usd.. According to the chart, I would need 5 jumbo bags for each of my speakers. You do the math, it is from the same site, with the 9K plus BOX...

1600.00 for bags of, you got it.. ROCKS.. I say they got some stones if nothing else. Maybe lead shot...That might work. Good place to hide gold, who is gonna nick your bags. Just saying.. :-)

Regards
“Bags of ROCKS”

@oldhvymec....they seems to be very effective, checkout mahgister system :-)
mahgister did not pay 1600.00 for the rocks.. LOL 

FOR PEANUTS... My man... Love his approach.. the 1600. usd crew, got my goat a little bit..

Regards..
@OP,
I have auditioned grounding units, though not the one you reference.
I listened to the CAD ground control at Audioconnection, and both I and ctsooner noticed a significant change in the background. It just seemed 'blacker', and you could make out subtle details in the music that you didn't notice without the CAD.
I, for one, don't put a lot of faith/money on these things, but I have to believe my ears when they do make a change for the better.
Bob
I use the synergistic Research active grounding box.  When it was accidentally switched off the other day (very tiny light) I spent the day wondering why everything sounded flat...the 'life' seemed to be missing.

MC gives a very plausible explanation.  More importantly, his point of criticism without experience being foolish, is wholeheartedly endorsed.  I don't mind when there is humour, but those who 'know everything' without 'trying anything' are a pain. 
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ozzy4,722 posts01-28-2021 12:51pm



liquid Graphene

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Where do you get this at ozzy? What I found is really expensive, you got a source? I had to haggle like crazy to get it at 18.00 usd 100mg vials and buy 10. 180. for a gram of dry graphene.

What about salts? There a ton of different salts.. ay?

Crystals? Iron Ferrite, crushed magnets? I keep reading about magnets. How they can DIRECT and focus a signal to the CENTER of a conductor... Don’t shoot the messenger.. It’s how they focus a laser in a vacuum. A type of signal focal thingamajig. I’m thinkin’!!!

A U shape copper grate in a magic solution, that SUCKS out bad mumbo jumbo..

OK GUYS I’m headin’ out to the shop.. I’m gonna make one.

Been thinking about a star ground for a LONG time.. I like SRs I just don’t like the price.. I’m thinkin’ combine the two.. Earth Box with a SECOND common grounding scheme. Just no plug ins, all screws, nuts and binding washers.. 12.00 for a copper bar.. and all the wire.. I’m heading for the drill press..

I need to start a thread.. Say OP you gonna do one up? make an Earth Box that is?

Who is gonna do it? I will.. NO I'm not a sucker.. I can watch it rain, or work in the rain...:-)

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


aubreybobb
38 posts01-27-2021 8:10pmI use the synergistic Research active grounding box.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Why is it active? I see it is plugged in. Is it just plugged into the ground of everything? Like the "Earth Box"?
You see why my gears are grinding???? Very interesting..

Regards

Crystals? Iron Ferrite, crushed magnets? I keep reading about magnets. How they can DIRECT and focus a signal to the CENTER of a conductor... Don’t shoot the messenger.. It’s how they focus a laser in a vacuum.

Rick Schultz at High Fidelity Cables has been using magnets in his cables and devices for years. The magnetic field directs electrons into a more direct path (or something like that).

I own several of his cables and devices. You might want to read about his theory....
https://www.highfidelitycables.com/technology/




@ozzy 
Reading the basics about the Synergistic Research box I discovered they use the signal ground, not the earth ground from components. Is that what you are doing?

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@ozzy 
Thanks for that comprehensive answer. Very generous of you to expose the secret sauce that's inside the boxes.
Interesting that the YouTube guy used your design, including the cigar box.


This has been very interesting. So the wood boxes full of crystals and other minerals provide a ground. If you could help me understand it better I know that ground is usually referred to as negative in a circuit but as a zero-volt reference point potential for a real ground. So how scientifically is this box of elements act as a ground? Why these minerals and not just a box of dirt? Do they provide a positive or negative reference?
https://youtu.be/zgqYdq0VgKg

Love Paul’s take on this subject at PS Audio.
It is snake oil.

There is something called a ground lifter, which in a few bucks achieve exactly the same purpose and grounds your system as well as eliminating any possibility of hum arising from ground loops.

It is probably trying to simulate that, but at a price tag suitable for audiophools.

@cakyol,
Incorrect.
Ground lifting and grounding boxes are two different things.

Though I am not versed as to how the other manufacturers connect their equipment, I do know that the CAD unit uses an unused input to connect to the grounding box. This essentially grounds the equipment's circuit, not just the chassis.
B
The Nordost grounding box makes a huge difference, really & I mean VERY noticeably cleaning up the sound (the extent of which surprised me, I didn’t go in open-minded) - but they make no claims to stuffing it full of minerals etc. Used can be had for biggish discounts. There are 3 units in 2 ads on AG at this moment. I wouldn’t buy anything stuffed with minerals unless I heard it, especially side by side with a Nordost. I trust my aural memory enough that unless I heard a huge improvement w/o a comparison, it’s (very) unlikely to be as good.
Best ground box you can get, package of dillies and a 6 pack.
I require Hallographs (pair behind speakers and pair at rear of room) despite my high end custom listening room. My speakers are not SOTA or close to it (Legacy Focus) and require help in focusing imaging, soundstaging and frequency eveness. The Hallographs tune the acoustics making these speakers adequate for my use without purchasing big bucks speakers I’m looking at ($35K to $60K). My future speakers may not require Hallographs and probably won’t need speakers' SR HFTs either (the speakers I’m entertaining have multiple bass and treble controls built-in). I haven’t tried grounding boxes. It won’t hurt to try.

@millercarbon Nice explanation of RFI and grounding conditions affecting equipment/cabling.