Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@nyev 

Unless you’re married to ROON, consider auditioning Aurender N20 and call it a day! I can hardly wait to get N30SA later this year and complete my quest on what I consider my ultimate digital front end under $100K. 

“Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?”

@nyev

I guess you finally have an answer to your query. Well, I hope you had fun throughout this exercise and gained a nice DAC in the process. IMHO, it’s unfair to compare a DAC modules to an outboard DAC much like an integrated network card in a DAC to an outboard Streamer. They may not sound bad but they just don’t stand a chance against a full blown component. At least that’s been my experience! 

“Baetis Reference series.  It sounded like music in a way nothing else did.”

@john1 

What other servers you have heard and compared to draw that conclusion? 

Good post @metaldetektor. Selecting a DAC is a process, very similar to selecting Speakers, Integrated (or Pre and Amp) and Streamer/Server for any seriously put together audio system. 

@wsrrsw 

Congratulations on acquiring MU1. Do you hear appreciable difference between native and 4x up sampled file? 

@wsrrsw 

Of course you do, I was just curious so I asked. In any case, enjoy! 

“There was a second Mu1 being shown in room 726, M101 cables. He used it to demonstrate the effectiveness of his ethernet cable.”
@fastfreight

Now that’s interesting…Isn’t MU1 immune to Audiophile LAN cables?

“If AES totally does the trick with the N20 though, and I end up going with Aurender in the end”

@nyev 

If N20 survival hinges upon how you hear things through the AQ AES cable, I suggest you try atleast two-three different AES cables from the brands I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. 

Maybe consider latest iteration of Statement….

“our investment in the gear should never be the end game, we should strive to maximize our enjoyment”. 

+1, @ghasley

I couldn’t agree with you more! 

“Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

In one word - NO. ‘The Best’ is often contingent on your budget and rest of the system. I’m sure you’ve heard the saying, one man’s garbage is other man’s…

I don’t fancy any DAC or Streamer that can’t play files natively. Upsampling or Downsampling is a non-starter for me.

@charles1dad

I completely understand the argument about ‘real world SQ’. I know atleast two very highly regarded DAC manufacturers (AudioNote and Abendrot) that doesn’t do DSD (an important consideration for me) but I wouldn’t hesitate to jump on the first opportunity to own them as a sidekick to my amazing Merging DAC.  As far as I’m concerned, just leave the re-mastering, Upsampling or Downsampling in the capable hands of artisans in the recording studio.

“People forget that when a designer creates a module like this there are other synergies at work that allow him or her to squeeze out more performance”

+1, @arafiq

Sometimes we can’t get pass the notion that a ‘add-on module’ can’t be as good as separate component. My $1K phono module in Accuphase performed much better than a stand-alone phono costing 3.5x.

@arafiq,

Once you hear a native file on a well executed NOS DAC, you won’t care for upsampled file. You can’t magically add meaningful ‘information’ that’s not there! Trickery or not, I will leave it your own imagination :-) 
 

@charles1dad 

You can certainly turn off upsampling in MU1. But Downsampling of DSD64, DSD128, DSD256 and DXD files and streams to 4FS or 2FS 😳. For many, it’s not a big deal cause there is plenty of content available to stream upto 4FS resolution. IME, once you hear a native DXD or DSD file, you gain a whole new perspective on what’s possible. And having a DAC that allows you to appreciate these incremental differences is a bonus :-) 

@nyev 

I get it, Aurender is not for everyone. Whatever path you choose, just have fun. 

@charles1dad …I appreciate your support. 

@ghasley 

Thanks for your last post, very informative and helpful in understanding why you preferred MU1 over Innuos and Aurender. I don't mean to beat a dead horse but my stance on upsampling was based on my extended listening with four different DAC’s in the price range from $8K and $25K. To my ears, upsampled files did not sounded natural and often produced some level of distortion. As of now, ROON doesn’t support native DSD files. And since they are using ROON as OS so a sample rate conversion (both upsampling and downsampling) by way of “Pure Nyquist” decimation filter appears to be a smart choice. If anything, you achieve greater consistency across the board by listening in 2FS or 4FS mode. 

In any case, MU1 is not something I would not consider…I have a large library of DSD and analog files that I prefer to hear natively. In my system, Aurender serves my needs beautifully by allowing me to hear files without any post processing and not to mention unparalleled RAVENNA integration with my Merging DAC over Ethernet.

Like you said, which server/streamer is best? The one that meets your goal. 

“DSD 1024”

@ghasley

You’re on a roll today…LOL! I am catching up to your posts…As you might know the main DAW in the world for recording in DSD is max out in 256. That’s Merging’s Technologies Pyramix. If I am not mistaken all of the DSD 512 or 1024 stems from the original 256 recording. I believe any file sourced from an original master, regardless of its resolution is capable of sounding incredible on a well appointed system. Whenever I’m buying a download, I always check its provenance and DR measurements.

I concur with your assessment on Meitner DAC. I had the similar experience hence my reason to dump it in favor of my current DAC which is exemplary in its execution of digital files, local and those stream from Qobuz. Just like Grimm, Merging is highly regarded in the professional recording and mastering studios. I happen to own many recordings that were produced, mastered with Merging Clock. If you’re still collecting DSD’s, check out TRPTK and Turtle Records. You’re in for a royal treat my friend.

Back to your post, I concur with your assessment on Innuos focusing on USB. However it appears they are missing out hence their decision to include AES, SPDIF connectivity on newer Pulse series. If I recall, limited connectivity was one of the reasons why I never considered Innuos Statement at its release.

Almost forgot to mention, Total DAC is another DAC that was high on my list to try but I never really got around. So many great sounding components to choose from and not enough resources :-)

PS: I was quite surprised to see you moved away from all Shindo system (pre/amp and Mr. T). Someday, I am going to built all Shindo system around WVL or Horning’s. 

+1, @lordmelton 

If you have the capability to add external clock, you must try this option. It’s what I call the ‘X’ factor. Based on what’ve experienced with my DAC and N20, a high quality 10MHz external clock is a next level upgrade. 

“Curious about the Grimm but can’t quite get my head around no high-rate USB OR I2S output just AES.”
@kairosman

Further to what @ghasley said, MU1 is designed to stream max resolution upto 192kHz, which is also the standard for a single wire AES/EBU protocol. This pretty much eliminates the need to implement USB or i2S. While one can use MU1 in a conventional system, it truly intended to be a centerpiece for their LS series self-powered speakers.

@ghasley 

I would love to see pics of your audio den :-) 

@grannyring

I have gotten feedback from other users that new Muon Pro ahead of MU1 is quite effective and it really lifts its game. It appears MU1 requires a Gigabit Ethernet so Muon Pro makes sense. It’s worth pointing out, Hans Beekhuyzen feedback on Muon with MU1 was based on standard Muon 100Mb version not the Pro version.

““the N20 is inferior to the K50”

@nyev 

You do realize dealer bias is in play since he sells K50. All of your choices under consideration are excellent choices. It’s going to comes which of these streamer sounds best within your system. If your prefer AES/EBU, N20, MU1 and Pulsar should be on top of your list. 

@jerryg123 

I take dealer advice with a pinch of salt. The overzealous approach in shilling their product lines put to test when they are unable to provide a product for in-house demo. 

“Aurender you can only use their Conductor app”

@nyev

As a long time user of Conductor app and ROON (18+ months), this would not be a source of your dissatisfaction with Aurender. The Conductor UI is not as layered or advance as ROON but it’s very intuitive and robust, both streaming from cloud based services or local files. Most importantly, conductor app renders your files faithfully, zero tempering with resolution. I’m not sure you read last paragraph in my previous post. That’s a very important consideration as it pretty much future proof your purchase should you choose to upgrade your DAC.

“I’ve yet to find a dealers/salesperson who doesn’t let their biases get in the way of getting great advice”
@nyev

I know it’s a rarity but they do exists. I have been very fortunate to work with few dealers that are audio enthusiast at heart. They are driven by their passion to help others in putting together great sounding systems.

Back to your query, Is AES better than USB? The answer lies within the implementation of these protocols between the two components, your DAC and streamer. IME, N20 implementation on all of its available outputs is simply stellar and uncompromising. And I expect the same from your Gryphon DAC. What you end up preferring is squarely depends on the quality of USB or AES cables. YES, the cable between the two components is going to matter a lot. I have extensively compared the USB & AES between my components and they both sounded stellar with N20 as a source.

My advice to you, don’t buy a component that limits your options. Why spend top dollars and limit yourself to AES and 24bit/192kHz file resolution (MU1) or K50, that may sound better with AES but not USB. At the end of the day, listen and access what’s sounds best in your system.

As far cabling goes, sky is the limit. Shunyata, Harmonix, Acrolink and Sablon gets my vote for AES. For USB, Network Acoustics USB III, TCHERNOV, Kimber Hybrid are the among best I’ve heard.

Here is another important consideration that doesn’t get mentioned here. Aurender is been at their game longer than anyone else. They offer seamless integration (via Conductor app) with some of the top DAC’s. This integration includes Master Clock sync and advanced Network like RAVENNA. Also eliminates the need for AES, SPDIF or USB cabling. MSB and Merging are two I know of, I am sure there are more.

@nyev 

I believe you can still use CC via F&F. When you go through the payment options via F&F, the steps prompt you if you want protection (CC) or skip protection (bank transfer). Not sure why you’re buying used…is there no dealer in your area that will allow in-home audition?  

In any case, start with K-50 if that’s more convenient. Does K-50 comes with return privileges? 

“Turns out the seller of the N20 is a longtime poster here”
@nyev 

Even better!

“Does paying by CC really add protection? How can you prove to the CC company that you never received the goods?”

@nyev

Yes, all major credit cards offers purchase protection. Much better than PayPal. Your delivery confirmation or lack of + any correspondence with seller is a proof for your CC company. BTW, my last few sales of $10K plus were all wire transfers. Ask this seller if he will accept wire transfer.

@nyev 

congratulations on your purchase of N20! Once you get N20, let it settle down in your system for at least 72 hours, compare both USB and AES with good cables and post your findings. 

@nyev 

Couple of brands for your AES cable consideration; Audience, Acrolink (if you can find it used), Acoustic Revive and Combak (aka Harmonix). 

“I consider Wadax, Taiko Extreme the two big dogs, up to now Aurender W20SE, Innuos Statement, Antipodes K50 tied for third, Statement may now be pulling ahead of Aurender, Antipodes with new PS and optimized usb for me.”

@sns

Which one of the top flight servers/streamers you auditioned in your system? And which DAC or DAC’s did you pair these servers to arrive at your ratings of one, two and three?

“But as of now my biggest fear is that I will be unable to part with the Aurender N20”

@nyev

As a long time Aurender user, my suggestion would be to not let N20 go before you had a chance to compare it with MU1 and K50.

Once N20 settles in your system, you will hear clearly that it excels in terms of low frequency extension and slam. You will also notice an edge in terms of perceived detail. N20 doesn’t quite smear or soften the top end details as Innuos. In contrast, Innuos is little more gentle on top end. I found N20 to be ultra detailed without being etched or forward. 

You are in phase 1 of your audition, take your time. Phase 2 would be optimizing the N20 with cabling, isolation and after-market fuse. There is a grounding lug on N20 (more on that later). For now just listen and compare :-)

Both Innuos and Aurender makes great streamers and from here on your personal taste of the sonic signature in the context of the rest of the system will ultimately be the deciding factor in your choice of streamer.

“Which I know is just marketing.”
@nyev

I beg to differ. AES/SPDIF implementation is much more complexed than USB where data packets are simply being pushed to a DAC for all the heavy lifting. Aurender clearly advocates SOTA performance for end users through their AES/SPDIF output by controlling the signal out to the DAC at intervals defined by the on-board precision OCXO clock. There is only so much one can do with USB outputs in a streamer as the outcome will greatly vary by USB implementation in your DAC. Aurender’s dedicated USB Audio output is physically and electrically isolated from the noise-generating CPU board to minimize noise in the sensitive audio interconnect. And from what I’ve read, your DAC module is pretty darn good with handling incoming data faithfully and meticulously. These particular features among others in your DAC implementation stood out to me,

“Super-Capacitor (12.5 Farad!) power supply for USB module - acts like a true battery supply”

“Temperature-compensated, ultra-low jitter crystal oscillator with better than 5 parts per million accuracy”

As I pointed out earlier, each system is unique. I enjoyed my time with N20 paired with EMM Labs DA2 DAC. But when I heard N20 with an external 10MHz clock, my jaw simply dropped. A different beast altogether with external clock! It became clear to me why Aurender chose to include external clock input with their top 3 models. In my opinion, when it comes to pushing the limits of what’s possible in digital realm, Aurender is way ahead of the curve. You may not think about pursuing external clock at this time but that’s something you should keep in mind before settling down with a streamer of your choice. 

“My only issue with ports on dac is manufacturers often don’t make clear which port is optimal. ”

@sns

Most manufacturers of high quality DAC’s takes pride in laying out how each port is optimized for us to make an informed choice. One fine example would be AQUA and there are many more…..

“Curious as to no suggestion or comparisons to Aqua LinQ”

@rowlocktrysail 

Linq is a two box solution…needs an external server to run ROON or HQPlayer. OP is looking for a one box, no frill streamer or server/renderer. 

@nyev

Good call! Sablon makes good sounding cable. I’ve heard nothing but high praises, especially their ethernet cables. 

“Getting impatient!”

@nyev

I couldn’t help asking….you grew impatient within a week with N20, how are you going to cope with K50 long break-in 😊

“One of the other network players I want to try, the Antipodes K50, is widely known to take many months before it fully settles, with very sudden improvements that show up every 1-2 months during this time. Word is it can be a bit harsh prior to this burn in.”

@sns 

Interesting feedback on K50….coming very close to and really sold me on Antipodes; which one is it?  Did you end up buying the K50? And what DAC did you pair your K50 with….

“Right now there just isn’t anything I can do with the N20 with USB that will change”
@nyev

Your feedback on N20 USB output is interesting. I believe you’re now spoiled by PhoenixUSB which takes the incoming signal and completely regenerates it to an extremely high-precision signal to feed into your DAC. This goes back to the argument of separates vs one box. Is K50 / MU1 going to measure up, only time will tell :-)

I won’t be surprised if after trying N20 / K50 and MU1, you end up preferred your current trio of Innuos.

“to be substantiated through my testing….”
@nyev

That’s been my motto as well. Only through testing within the context of our systems we can leverage the strengths and recognize weaknesses of a given component. All else is pure speculation or simply an opinion. Given my extensive experience with N20, the N20 performance greatly varied by what’s ahead in your chain. With EMM DA2 DAC, I enjoyed N20 more with AES over USB. Not that USB sucked but I preferred AES as it sounded more addictive and natural to my ears. Granted, I was using two different brands of cabling. Another friend of mine, reported similar traits, N20 connected through AES to his MSB Reference DAC.

Later I switched to a Network Attached DAC with external clock and power supply. The N20 connected to my DAC via LAN (no USB or AES cabling) and re-clocked by external 10MHz clock was a different beast all together. The effect of external clock on N20 was pretty startling to say the least. The channel separation, lower distortion and a greater phase clarity became the hallmark of music signal. The new level of realism, more analogous, intimate presentation with external clock in the mix especially with higher resolutions files.

Again, this is going back to the argument of separates vs one box…USB implementations, OCXO’s clocks on a PCB board in a confined space can only do so much. And for most part, they do a pretty darn good job. Having experienced what I’ve with external clock, I can’t imagine going back to listening to a Streamer and a DAC without an external Clock in the mix. I am now looking forward to further pushing the limits with either W20SE or N30SA.

Whatever you decide, just enjoy the ride!

@ghasley 

The ‘network’ part of my Merging Technologies DAC can be bit confusing to anyone if they are not familiar with the concept of RAVENNA. So what does RAVENNA network configuration allows…..Peer to Peer connection to any numbers of computer or streamers over your network. The Merging DAC has the capability of controlling multiple sources over the network, for example I can connect and toggle between a Innuos Statement, K50 and N20 from its source menu for side by side comparison, all over Ethernet. Think of Merging DAC equivalent to an Analog Preamp but in digital domain. 

Now the clock, The MERGING+CLOCK is designed to provide Synchronized Perfection to multiple components simultaneously that can accept Master / Word Clock inputs, like N20 and my Merging DAC.

You can read up in detail about Merging CLOCK here, 

RAVENNA

This open and published IP network technology had been created to meet the demands of national broadcasters and focused on essential requirements of extremely accurate clocking, high resistance to packet loss and very low latency. Initially it did not encompass high PCM sampling rates and certainly not DSD. However, it was not difficult to make changes to allow that, so Merging worked closely with the developers to make sure that sufficient channels at up to DSD256 could be handled with an accuracy that exceeded anything previously available. It remains the only logical choice for the professional and the audiophile and is now available in MERGING+NADAC. The added bonus to using an advanced networking solution is being able to send and receive control information as well as audio data. This opened up exciting possibilities in the studio and now you can enjoy these same benefits in your own home. 

“ I have two sets of toe in positions marked with a sharpie on the floor”

@nyev 

In that case, something else is out of place. Imaging is not a known issue with N20. 

“Less going on with imaging though”
@nyev

Are you adjusting (toe-in) your speakers when you switch to N20? Based on your own account, both of these streamers differs in how they project imaging in your room.

“IMHO the best audio components shift your attention away from the equipment and delve deep into the music being played.”

+1, @charles1dad 

I agree with @ghasley on AQ and let me add Nordost to the list of cables that are anything but warm. Maybe being in Canada, @nyev is limited on what he can get for home audition.

“ps is extremely impactful in streamer SQ”

This may be more of a factor in a streamer or server that runs on ROON or HQPlayer software as these applications requires much higher processing power.

@nyev 
Aurender has expertly designed their streamers on low-power high-efficiency Intel CPUs with enough headroom to run the machine while minimizing the amount of current drawn in order to keep the noise floor as low as possible.

The N20’s unique hybrid power supply delivers a pure DC current to flawlessly power the digital audio output board, while a separate linear power supply chain feeds clean power to the non-audio adjacent components of the machine.

“A number of ways to skin a cat.”
@charles1dad

Exactly! It appears each manufacturer has a different approach and often times a unique solution to elevate the audio performance. IME, even bigger improvement comes from isolating AC power from the chassis bearing the sensitive audio circuitry and feeding it with a DC hybrid power plant with highest quality components. 

@nyev

Two thumbs up on isolation transformer, that what I use now which replaced a very highly revered and expensive Power Conditioner. Most power conditioner seems to have a sonic signature or color the sound :-)

@nyev 

Catching up….I see that you’re now open to trying out an external DAC. Which is great and you owe yourself to do so if you want to hear ultimate performance out of ultra high-end streamers. Now that you’ve opened this door, my suggestion would be to let N20 break-in and shift your focus on auditioning DAC’s before buying another streamer. I would only consider buying K50 if you have unlimited funds to simultaneously compare K50, N20, MK3 with your choice of 2 to 3 DAC’s. You know what this would entail, tying up lots of money over a long period of time and patience to access what’s sounds best to your ears. The path to ultimate nirvana also entails multiple boxes and cable web, take a look at my ‘digital’ system under my user ID. I am well on my way to a five boxes digital front end from a once two box pretty darn good digital system (EMM Labs DA2 + N20) 

I can say from experience, finding the right DAC won’t be as easy as snapping your fingers. I went through painful yet equally enjoyable journey of owning 6+ DAC’s over last fours years before I finally found my ultimate DAC. Not to mention so many auditions at dealers and audio shows. Since you only stream, your DAC is the next most important piece of the puzzle after your Integrated. Truth be told, your onboard DAC is going to be a bottle neck for streamers like N20, K50 and Statement. You won’t truly know what these ultra high end streamers are capable of until you pair them with a really good DAC. 

During my DAC journey, Aurender remained my rock. I did hear offerings top offerings from Auralic, Innuos and Lumin but always returned to Aurender. And now I am pursuing Aurender N30SA as the ultimate companion to my DAC. Another huge plus with Aurender is their seamless integration with quite a few ultra high end DAC like MSB, Merging over Ethernet (RAVENNA). With this integration, you can opt to remove USB, AES and SPDIF cabling out of the equation. 

@nyev 

Congratulations on your purchase of MU1. This would be another reference point for you on both techs, streaming and DAC. What are you thinking in terms of XLR Interconnects for connectivity between MU1 and Diablo. Looking forward to your feedback. 

@ghasley 

What are your impressions of MU1 internal DAC vs external DAC? I believe, I read somewhere that you were using a Total DAC, is that still the case?