Kgnhifi - do you happen to know the rating of both new and old cables?
Are the old ones cat5 or cat6
Alternately what is the tested bandwidth of both old and new cables
Knowing this will help me determine the kind of improvement I might be able to attain.
Also - what software/hardware are you using to stream to the dac
Many thanks |
You could go the mac mini route + itunes + audirvana
I use my imac + itunes + audirvana and have 24/192 capability with remote from my droid tablet using a free app called Retune
Retune reads all of the itunes playlists, albums, genres etc... - so it functions the same as itunes
If I changed my dac to something of higher resolution then the associated driver would take care of linking at that resolution
It really is future proof since everything is software controlled
Audirvana streams the actual music file and I have it configured not to upsample, because the Schiit Bifrost dac I have sounds better that way
Hope this helps |
Forgot to mention that I use the USB port on the imac
Alternately you can use the optical output, but you need the 3.5mm optical adapter - apple puts the optical output in the headphone socket - I am NOT joking! Took me a couple of months to determine this
With both the optical and USB I found the DH Labs cables performed the best.
Back to the music :-) |
One last thing - Audirvana loads the entire track into memory before playing,so there tends to be a slight delay on the HD tracks, but then you can use wireless without any dropouts while playing
:-) |
Oh crap! - you've hit the dreaded "iTunes WAV wart" right off the bat
WAV does not contain metedata so when you import tracks it puts them into the "Unknown Artist" folder and within that the "Unknown Album" folder - told you it had some warts.
HOWEVER - I just tried converting WAV to mp4 with MAX and it inserted metada into the mp4 file it created file - I then imported into iTunes and it worked! (I only used mp4 to seperate it from my aif files)
I would suggest you try with a single album first - just to test it out
iTunes can convert to mp3, it gets a little silly for some reason (another iTunes wart) - MAX might be a better choice and more direct
I convert CD's on import into iTunes to AIF - iTunes is smart enough to embed metadata at the time of import.
I know WAV was the CD standard, but it is old hat. AIF is also an industry standard and, dare I say it, as good as WAV (my opinion only - no debates please :-).
I know nothing of iPod synching - you are on your own with that one - sorry :-) |
Tboooe_You can also get a windows computer - probably cheaper You can download itunes for windows - its free - not sure if the windows version messes with the files like the Mac does, so you might not need something like Audirvana to deliver files that have been upsampled. Yes - You can play flac tracks via Audirvana (playing one now) without itunes started - you nave to create playlists in Audirvana - not sure how good it is - suggest you checkout the manual on the web site Damien (support) responds very quickly if you have questions or problems There are other windows players out there - Aparantly the Windows Media Player works very well The Audirvana manual tells you how to import flac to iTunes - the caveat is flac files and music files have to be on the computer and not a NAS drive - it creates a proxy file that links to the music file - I had the proxy on the computer and the music on the NAS - once they were both on the computer all worked very well - rest of my files are on the NAS drive though I've used several players in the past... - hate Windows media player - getting stuff into the library is a pain - not sure if Audirvana has the different views of tracks (see below) _ I like the fact that itunes has seemless integration of music and radio - I like the different ways you can look at tracks - tittle, composer, genre - I like using Retune to control itunes There are other remote control programs out there that might work with other players - ask Damien if he knows of one for Audirvana Checkout other windows players - see windows players review Hope this helps |
Mapman - take a look at iTunes help - there is a "Create new Version" which then asks which version type you want to create and lists the iPod - so that might take care of synching and conversion to MP3
ALSO - Apple puts files in a default library folder
I have changed the settings to point to my NAS folder
You can change this in settings, but if you close iTunes, the next time you start it, it resets the library folder back to the default folder (at least on the iMac platform - another bloody wart)
When you rename the folder is updates the library and then prompt you to copy the files - DO NOT SAY YES!
Once you get used to the warts it's pretty nice to use, but discovering all the warts is a PITA. |
Forgot to clarify - when using Audirvana without iTunes integration it plays flac files from anywhere - even NAS drives - it's only when you integrate it with iTunes that it creates the proxy files and needs them both on the computer
I think Damien may be looking at this issue.
In "stand-alone mode" (i.e. without itunes) you can create multiple playlists of your music and recall them - from there you can filter the content of the playlist to refine a search.
The nice thing with itunes is that artist, album and genre categories are created automatically
- you can the create new genre's
- e.g. I listen to a lot of classical - itunes assigns this genre to a cd when loaded or a track when downloaded
- I then change the genre for a track or album
- e.g. I assign a genre of "Classical Woodwind" to woodwind tracks
Another nice thing about itunes is that it allows you to select multiple tracks to assign a genre to - even across albums - but this freedom can lead to icorrect assignment, so be careful.
I am not an Apple/iTunes bigot - quite the opposite - I just moved all my major apps back to a windows platform after a trying an iMac, which failed me miserably, but I will concede that even with it's warts - iTunes has one of the best interfaces out there for flexibility - even the Windows version performs very well and links to my iMac/iTunes and since installing Audirvana the playback is very impressive
Winamp - i tried it early on - is the closest I've seen to iTunes in flexibility, but I don't know about it's audio performance
Audirvana (native mode) would take a lot of effort to get the flexibility of iTunes - but it could be done
Windows Media Player - I gave up on after trying to import cd's - it's just not intuitive to me
Amarra seems to have a solid following and quite a nice interface - but the cost is too high and I think Audirvana has better quality playback - but if you want to taylor the sound it is probably the most flexible in that regard.
I guess now I have discovered the iTunes/iMac warts and overcome them I will stick with it - but if something else comes along I might be persuaded to change .
my requirement was to get the audio file data to my dac without upsampling - Audirvana does that extremely well
I have tried USB and Optical outputs and they sound identical - I think [this is due to the DH Labs cables, which I have found to perform the best - even better than Van den Hul - my next prefference.
hope this helps |
Itunes does not like WAV - it's renamed my collection a couple of time - that's why I went to AIF - finally
Sounds like you have a better handle on it than I initially did :-)
It surprised me that MAX was able to set album and artist metadata when I just converted to mp4 - not sure why Apple has an issue, but then - they like to do things their way and not tell anyone why, or how to get around it - my biggest gripe with them actually.
if you can get the WAV to AIF or some other format Apple knows then importing is a doodle - you just import a folder using iTunes - File|Add to Library menu item |
Mapman - if you need any more info use the agon mail service
Cheers |
knghifi - GET OUTTA HERE!!! Rolling ethernet cables - really? :-)
I switched to wired way back - when the tech support at apple told me the solution to frequent breaks in wireless streaming was to convert EVERYTHING to MP3 - I'm not kidding - if I hadn't been so mad I would have LMAO :-)
I did find both optical and usb cables made a difference - problem with streaming - ya never know what got through, unlike copying files, where the computer ensures the file is error free
Thanks for the windows info - good to know |
Jeffkad - I took a look at a couple of those and it was difficult to assess just how good the interface was - even those with remote capability
The computer based ones were easier to assess and cheaper to implement - plus you can change interfaces pretty easily and as sample rates get better you can grow with them.
However - with computers you do have to do a fair bit of investigation and setup and there can be some setbacks along the way.
Having worked in computers for 39 years my choice was easy, but it's not for everyone
Boxed solutions are close to plug and play once connected to the network, so for some a boxed solution is preferable
There is clearly a market for both products and they both have similar performance capabilities - it's really a matter of which one suites the person using it |
I can confirm knghifi's findings re: wireless and wired...
First - the wired does not suffer from breaks in the stream - my wireless was bad for that - too many other routers in the neighbourhood according to apple support.
Second, the wired is much smoother in the highs like violins and sibilance
Don't forget - if the dac is missing a sample - it will try to insert the next best interpolated value based on valid adjacent samples. Only when too many adjacent samples are missing will a break in the audio signal occur. Somewhere between an audible break and a perfect stream you have a dac creating an audio signal that contains distortion.
High frequencies are more difficult to rebuild because there are fewer samples at high frequencies - e.g. on a 44Khz sample source, if you miss 2 samples you cannot rebuild a 20kHz audio signal perfectly.
I noticed a significant improvement in the violins on every orchestral piece I have.
Not only does it sound smoother, but the placement of instruments in the sound stages became much more precise and spacious
Your cables contribute to streaming issues also - I have tried a few optical and USB cables and found that DH Labs provide the best quality to date - so I can see why rolling quality network cables may also prove beneficial - although, if they also suffered from poor tranmission then it might take me several attempts to send this note, so I'm not sold on this right now, but when I have time to investigate it might bring some more enlightenment :-) |
Had a chance to think about LAN cables and where a quality cable might make a difference....
Basically, anything connected to a router/computer is subject to sending data that is checked for data errors - if an error is detected the data is re-sent until it is correct - that's the way computers ensure that a vital bit is not dropped, which might cause a spreadsheet to display incorrect numbers.
The only place that data is not verified is in the link between the streaming device and the DAC - that's where I found good cables definately make a difference.
HOWEVER - there would be a case for good quality LAN cables if you are experiencing breaks in your music, which might be an indication that the error rate in your network is severe enough that the re-transmission of data causes a time lag that is long enough to interfere with the reconstruction of the audio signal.
If your streaming device does not have sufficient buffering capability then bad cables will certainly highlight the problem with more frequent breaks in the audio signal.
Vicadamone - thanks for the link - I think this is worth investigating, if only to see if it makes my NAS drive will respond quicker. |
Knghifi - not everything - I've found Home Depot MDF is good for shelves :-)
It would be nice to now how the various streaming devices actually stream data, then the impact of good network cables would be easier to assess.
For instance, when I was using the Apple TV to stream it seemed anything I tried improved the sonic quality - even upgrading the power cord to a Furutech on the Apple TV made a real sonic improvement.
Since switching to the iMac and Audirvana Plus, which loads the entire track into memory, I found that having the same Furutech power cable on the iMac did not make any difference to sonic quality once I removed it.
I received an email from Damien of Audirvana and he says, for streaming content directly from the web e.g. radio, it loads several seconds of a track before it starts playing and by the time that 5 seconds has finished playing the rest of the track has been buffered in computer memory - and by the time that track has finished playing the next track is buffered and ready to play - and so on.
He also believes cat5e will suffice for most music when using Audirvana.
So I am thinking that since Audirvana buffers so much data, upgrading network cables might not be as beneficial in my setup as it is in your own.
But since the upgrade to cat7 is relatively inexpensive and the fact I will have to do it at some point in time - I'll give it a whirl - what the heck:-)
Will keep you posted. |
Knghifi - the cable should improve the transmission time because of its bandwidth capability, but since Audirvana buffers a complete track (i.e. when playing from a hard drive) it should have no impact on playback.
But I will reserve final judgement until my cables arrive - ordered them yesterday :-) |
Knghifi - Audirvana pre-fetches the next track whilst the current track is playing, based on what is selected as the next track.
Which track is next depends on the order the listener has selected - e.g. by album, genre, artist,composer, or whatever is in the stream from an internet radio station. I can go through my entire collection automatically if desired :-)
In my system playback sequence is controlled by iTunes. Audirvana simply deals with playback and simultaneous retrieval of the next track - simple, elegant and very effective and no dropouts due to networking issues.
There is a very small lag (1-2 seconds) on the very first track in a newly selected sequence - e.g. selecting a new album , playlist, genre, etc, while the very first track is loaded into memory, but after that everything plays with only the user defined inter-track delay.
So there is really no need to load an entire album, which on some systems might prove to be detrimental.
Still going to get the cat7 though - if it only makes my network more efficient I'll be happy - getting better sound - that would be the icing on the cake!
:-) |
Kriskdf - on paper, cat5/6 should suffice, but once the real world kicks in there can be many factors, such as noisy environments, poorly installed connectors, noise from the WWW and quite often these days - crappy quality network cable, that can effect performance.
Cable ratings are supposed to protect against crappy cable, but there are so many cables out there from less than reputable manufacturers, that would fail the test they are supposedly rated at.
Purchasing quality cables goes a long way to ensuring the rated throughput is attained, but I think stepping up to cat7 as well will "future-proof" my system.
For a little while at least :-) |
knghifi - yes, Apple only I'm afraid But maybe there's a Linux version - contact Damien at [email protected]He is very responsive Also see http://audirvana.com/ for a full description Basically it's a media player that can be standalone or integrate with iTunes |
kriskdf - your comment " Things like minimum radius bends "
Happen to know what that minimum radius is?
Tighter than a 3.5" radius by any chance?
That's about the gap in my wall space for the outlets - the rest is fairly straight runs or a much larger radius.
Thanks |
Kriskdf - thanks for the link - great article that contains some interesting point to observe when running network cables.
Also explains why local computer stores had never heard of CAT7 - i.e. rarely used in north america |
Knghifi - agreed - the cable between the iMac and the DAC will make a difference - In my case that is a USB cable
Audirvana is a program that runs on my computer (the client) and buffers a complete track into computer memory prior to passing that data onto the DAC via the USB cable
The cables between my computer and my NAS drive (the server) will have no effect on playback because each track is bufferred on the client
But it never hurts to have a faster network :-) |
Confirmed - cat7 network cables didn't improve playback on my setup...
NAS ->cat7 -> router ->cat7 -> iMac + Audirvana -> USB -> DAC
But access to the NAS drive has improved a little - better cables fewer resent packets probably
BTW the USB cable is from DH Labs and performs extremely well.
Next - upgrade the router :-) |
