Want a very nice Linn Sondek 12 for about 1/4 the price? Let me know. I have 2 of them. There's no need to spend as much as you think. Good luck either way.
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If you are not a "vinyl guy" why would you even consider putting that much into a table? If money is no object, good for you.
There are excellent tables, new or used, for much, much less that will compete with the uber-expensive tables.
Buy something that is not a major investment, but good, and live with it to be sure vinyl is for you. If you want audio jewelry that's ok but realize that's what it is.
This is also going into an area that is my demo room for HT and whole house audio so I want it to not look like it is out of the 70' but by no means do I want to buy just audio jewelry. Also it will be one of the only things besides my mono blocks that are not in a in wall built in rack so I need it to look nice as well since it will stand out. I have no issue how the Basis looks a couple dim blue led's behind it it will look great. I want something that will generate intrest as well, who knows I may even wind up selling a few tables but that won't happen unless I have something impressive.
Point me in the direction of good used tables. Price is of course an object or else I woud have a Basis work of art.
Also my best source was a Cary 303 CD player, I have been very unhappy with in every respect so I really want to get something that I can really get some good quality out of or what is the point I bought good speakers now I need a good source. or else I just wasted alot of money on speakers I can never use to there potentional.
Programmergeek - Although I sadly do not have a pair of Vandersteen 7's en route to my home, I do have at least two turntables that meet your criteria. The Well Tempered Amadeus starts at around $3K with an excellent tonearm included. The Ayre-DPS starts at around $9.5K. Either are worthy of your consideration. I also have a Basis Signature 2500 fully loaded to the tune of about $20K. The Amadeus easily betters the 2500, and the Ayre-DPS definitely betters the Amadeus. All IMHO. YMMV.
You haven't mentioned anything about what line and phone stages you will be using. A great phono stage is a requirement for any top quality turntable.
Anyway, Mr. Woodworker, here's a great place to start:
Spend ~$2k on a good used phono stage. To get your feet wet, I would recommend starting with a good modest cartridge(e.g. Denon 103R, Benz Glider, or lower end Dynavector).
If you really get into vinyl, then sell the Morch arm and get a Triplanar or Schroeder arm, and upgrade your cartridge. Each of those recommendations is a whole conversation in itself.
Whatever you get, buy a VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine for another $500, and get Walker Audio Prelude fluids/brushes to clean your LPs! These last two are the strongest of my recommendations.
FWIW, one guys opinion, to fit your situation, cheers,
I had a chance to listen finally to a Well tempered Amadeus by shear accident. I was looking at some LP's when I noticed numerous tables.I have no idea if this was the latest model? I would seriously think of an audition fast before spending huge amounts of cash for maybe much less.In the past I have had Goldmunds,Original Well-tempered,Music halls etch. I have to say the new addition is way better then anything near or over it's price range.
I agree that you really need to consider a table, arm, cartridge and phonostage as a record playback SYSTEM and therefore should set your budget at a figure that will allow you to work with a reputable dealer to put together the whole package. (You could go used but as a newbie in the vinyl realm I would caution you here--an experienced dealer will be able to help you select components that work synergistically and will ensure that your table is properly set up and calibrated so that you get maximum performance for the dollars you have invested). To get something that will fully realize the potential of your new Vandy 7s I would think $20K would do it. There are many options at this price point and I certainly have not heard many or even most of them. Two that I can highly recommend from personal experience would be the Raven 1 with the Raven arm and the Spiral Groove SG2 with either the Centroid or Triplanar arms. Either of these would nicely compliment your system. If you are on the East Coast, Jeff at High Water Sound is the guy you want to talk to about the Raven and Mike at Extreme Fidelity in New Jersey can help you with the Spiral Groove. If you are intent (and have the funds) to jump straight into a top caliber vinyl playback system I would think that these two tables should be near or at the top of your list.
Sounds like you might be a candidate for an Oracle VI. Should be in your price range, looks nice (but there is that pesky acrylic), and is supposed to be top notch.
I am fairly new to vinyl as well, and not playing quite in your price range. I have also been going my own way a little bit. I am actually building my vinyl front-end from the phono stage back. That is after I bought an entry-level turntable to determine that I liked vinyl.
Whatever you choose, you are playing in a range where setup and system matching will be critical. So, hopefully you have a good amp/preamp match to your speakers. In my case, I went a different direction and chose high-efficiency speakers with low-powered tube amps rather than something like your Vandersteens-- which I understand to be superior speakers.
I will tell that I just received my phonostage/pre-- a Manley Steelhead-- and it is phenomenal. With your gear, you should be looking at something as good or better and as flexible. I would work with a very good dealer who knows vinyl and your other associated gear.
Take a look at the TW-Acustic tables designed and made by Thomas Woschnick; he makes several models at various levels but they all sound excellent, are versatile and able to handle multiple arms, and are built with the very best German craftsmanship. The US distributor is Jeffrey Catalano in New York, Highwater Sound; very knowledgeable, trustworthy, and a no BS guy. He will not pressure you in any way and he will give you great advice and service.
You can get a Platine Verdier with arm and cart for your indicated budget (new) or buy a used one and then an arm and cart of your choice.
These TTs always generate a lot of interest and are impressive to look at (statically and operating), but not in a 'jewelry' type way, as you mention.
Plus you'll have something that is quite rare compared to many other of the top brands.
FWIW, I totally get and agree that appearance should be a factor when you are likely to spend that kind of money. It's not one of my primary considerations, but I think it is a valid consideration.
I have come to really dig the retro look and feel of all of my gear. As a result, I have to admit that I am considering appearance as a factor for my tt selection. It's kind of like building an A-frame Cabin right in the middle of a subdivision of brick ranch houses. No one is ultimately going to be happy about it. So, if you like cabins, great. If you like, brick ranches, great. Probably makes more sense, though to have some continuity to the system philosophy.
After all, it's the OP's money, he should be happy with his purchase. A dissatisfied purchaser doesn't do any good for anyone involved in this hobby. As much as many here may be unwilling to admit, the "new toy" or "jewelry" aspect of this hobby is a very real component of what gets and/or keeps people interested.
Just my humble opinion.
Definitely buy new from a local dealer - the setup help will be valuable.
Honestly, Basis is a great recommendation. Ultimately they are a very solid product for the price, very quality engineering. I'm not as familiar with the Vector arm, but I'm sure it is good. Otherwise a Tri Planar or SME 4 or 5 would do fine. The Rhea is a very good phono, you should be all set there.
Ignore the condescending posts. You can get an OK table for $3k, just like you can get an OK pair of speakers for 3k. Tables get better as you spend more just like anything else.
Getting whatever Basis you can afford is good advice. The vacuum is not necessary IMHO, so at this stage I wouldn't recommend spending a whole lot more to get it.
If appearance is a consideration, then I would agree with the recommendation of the Oracle Delphi MKV or VI. I think the issue of a vacuum platter is important, and if you can't swing the Basis, then the Sota Star or higher will give you most of what the Basis would provide. The Sota Cosmos with arm and cartridge should come in under 10k. There may be other vacuum platters around, but I dont know of any.
An edge clamp along with center weight will provide much of what a vacuum platter does, and can be used on many more tables. The damping trough used by the Townshend Rock is a real improvement not available on other tables so you might want to look at one of those. Also, magnetic platter and tonearm bearings have great promise and are available on Clearaudio and Transrotor tables. I have a Transrotor Fat Boy and it is a very good table with strong, industrial art looks. Once you get into the range you are talking about, there are no bad tables, but they do sound different. So figure out what sound qualities are important to you, and you can trim the likely candidates to something manageable.
From the responses people give when I play vynil and what keeps me using vynil primarily over digital is the sound quality first and foremost. Appearance should be a distant second and with the value you have set out in price I cannnot think of any tables that would not meet your criteria of trophy looks.
Personally if I had that much scratch to put a vynil set up together I would spend 40% on the table and arm, 20% on the cartridge and 40% on the most important part. The phono stage!
Have to agree that a high value vynil rig set up front and center in a home theatre with the intent of selling them for 2 channel anolog would not be as optimal as a dedicated 2 channel set up for the purpose of selling anolog. To each his own but I personally would never buy a turntable of high value set up in a home theatre system for retail.
I cannot remember anyone going to look at home theatre systems and coming home with a turntable worth 10 to 20 grand.
Good quality tables with a bit more style than Basis, check out Brinkman, Raven, and Origin Live. However, having a local dealer who will take care of setup and keeping you happy may be a better choice overall.
I purchased my table used, and learned to setup the arm and cartridge myself. I invested in the proper tools to perform the work and in my view, it is part of the vinyl experience. You may not want to be involved with that part. If you're willing to take the plunge on setup, then your options are wide open.
It seems like appearance will be a major factor in your decision. Maybe the best way to go about this would be for you to visit Needle Doctor, Elusive Disc, Music Direct and Acoustic Sounds. Find a few turntables that appeal to your sense of style (there are plenty below AND above your budget), then come on back and ask for our opinions on them. I, of course will have no opinion because you're playing in a league with which I am unfamiliar.
Do you have any friends who listen to vinyl? I would suggest spending some time with people who know vinyl. Listen, play and get comfortable. Also visit more than one dealer. In my opinion you need some exposure before investing that amount of money in an analog front end. The possibilities are many. Find someone local whom you can trust, and learn as much as you can from him before you take the plunge. Alternatively, spend less on something used and learn yourself. There are a couple of good threads on this very subject in the analog forum. Analog IMHO is a real commitment which can have huge rewards. You have a nice problem. Enjoy learning.
Dear Programmergeek: +++++ " Also my best source was a Cary 303 CD player, I have been very unhappy with in every respect so I really want to get something that I can really get some good quality out of or what is the point I bought good speakers now I need a good source. " +++++
certainly there are better digital or analog source alternatives.
You said: " I'm not a vinyl guy ", so I assume you don't own thousands of LPs or even hundreds and maybe a lot of CDs/DVDAs/SACDs.
Other than your Seven's ( and future Rhea that I can't understand how you choosed. ) I don't know which are the other items in your system.
With all these in mind IMHO I think that you should go for a better digital source before attemp the analog one that's not an easy task for a newbie guy like you and even if you have the analog-skills IMHO today top and best digital source compete and in many ways beats analog.
Now, if you insist on analog then ( as Sbank point out. ) you need to buy not a TT but a whole analog source where you will need a knowledge person that could give you accurate advise and remember that always exist trade-offs: which yours?.
Regards and enjoy the music,
My dealer has a used entry level Amazon it doesn't excite me much but at least it looks modern and no one has anything bad to say about it. The price is right so I may buy that. I have just bought so much equipment I find myself unhappy with and moving that I want to do the right thing off the bat this time.
As for the system it is (Some turntable trying to decide) > Aesthetix Rhea signature > Aesthetix Calypso Signature > Aesthetix Atlas monoblocks > Vandersteen Sevens.
All cabling is Kimber select Silver (Although I wouldn't recommend Kimber I have it and so I am not replacing it, everything else I really like)
Dear programmergeek: +++++ " but at least it looks modern ....................... The price is right so I may buy that. I have just bought so much equipment I find myself unhappy with and moving that I want to do the right thing off the bat this time. " +++++
I really hope you achieve this time and I say " I hope " because I can't see a knowledge " proccess " with what you buy for the overall analog source. Seems to me that other than " it looks modern " the quality analog performance level does not matters at all or at least is not so important.
So, why do you think " to do the right thing off the bat this time. " ? what is " telling " you this time will be right? when even that you don't have the tonearm/cartidge combination you already bought a stand alone phono stage and a TT. Don't you think that if the analog source ( other that LP. ) is the phono cartridge you have to think first in the source it self?, maybe I'm wrong but IMHO when you buy a car you don't bought first the tires.
You said : " I have just bought so much equipment I find myself unhappy with ...", do you know why these happen in the past? do you know why this time should be different?
To buy a good digital source is an easy task where the error level is minimum but to buy an analog source set is totally different " toy " and with an intrinsec real high error level according your knowledge-ignorance level or according the knowledge-ignorance level of the people that you take it as your advisor.
IMHO the name of the game in the analog-ball park is not money but knowledge-skills that unfortunately you don't have it: " I am not a vinyl guy but want to become one ".
Yes, I know that the money comes from your wallet and you make what you want with, I'm only trying to help.
Anyway, good luck with your " enterprise ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
If the Model 7s are half as good as most people say they are (I only heard them briefly at RMAF and was not fond of the particular music being play...) then I think that you are going to be missing the boat w an average TT/arm and esp. what, to my ears, is not a standout phono stage. Very HQ speakers are usually very revealing of upstream deficiencies and Rhea Sig was not very impressive in direct comparison w several other phono stages. Pretty much unanimous agreement among 5 folks present, IIRC. Starting w a table that did not move you, adding a (IMO) less than involving phono stage will give those 7s what they need to sing.
Ok so I took peoples advice and went to my dealer which is a vinyl guy and this is what he recommended. I agree I KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT ANALOG, that is why I am here to lean and ask advice, no need to be rude and tell me I am ignorant, I already know that. So if the table is no good and the Reah signature is not good where do I go?
I have not heard the table, however I do not have the speakers yet (there is a long wait for them, months)or the phono stage so I really have to go on peoples advice what will match well. This whole system will have so many changes and just want to get it decent from the start. I don't have a ton of time to go play or go to dealers and talk, try out stuff, etc, I work full time and just like to listen to music and all the vinal I here in other systems is so much better than my cd player.
Anyhow I am in north NJ if someone can recommend a good analog guy I would be willing to go there and listen. I am only asking for a decent starting point that I will not go back in a month and go should of got the better table because there is 50% more sound.
Dear Programmergeek: When I don't have know-how on a subject ( any ) then I'm ignorant on that subject, example I don't know any single Chinese word so I'm ignorant on Chinese language.
This is what I mean when I speak about knowledge-ignorance level. I never posted something to insult a person especially when that person ( you ) does not gives any " motivation " for I respond on that way.
Now, if you are in your dealer's hands then be absolutely sure that he really is a vinyl guy with the right knowledge level.
The whole analog subject is not only to choose the right matched analog items. This is only the first part of the " party ", the second part is the right set-up of the analog set that in many ways is more complicate than the first part.
It is obvious that at this time you can't make the analog item set by your self so here your delaer will play a critical role.
Many of the persons in this forum been in analog for several years ( 10-20-30+ years. ) and I'm sure that many of them ( including me ) are still learning on the whole analog subject and how to achieve a next top step on quality performance level.
Digital is a great plug&play source where we almost don't need to worry about almost anything. Unfortunatelly analog is so imperfect that we have to worry even about room temperature.
Welcome a board but you need to know that you need time and patience to learn. If you do then the rewards will come along.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul is right. I got back into vinyl about five years ago, and it has taken me that long to get the full measure of what my modest analog front end can do. But, even though modest, it sounds stunning. Unless you do have ready access to someone very well qualified to set things up for you, you may be in for some very frustrating days (they can run into years). To learn as you go takes much of your time, so know that going in, unless you are satisfied with having to rely on a dealer, or someone else for help whenever you need it.
Important also, is the aspect of satisfaction in knowing that you have accomplished a very fine listening system, through you own hands-on efforts. If that kind of reward appeals to you, I urge you to take the hands-on approach if you are able, along with some knowledgeable folks, such as there are on this forum. Best of luck to you, and keep us informed as to your progress, if you would, I'll be cheering you on.
Dear programmergeek: +++++ " and just like to listen to music and all the vinal I here in other systems is so much better than my cd player. " +++++
+++++ " On the bright side all the vinal I have herd has been stunning compaired to my cd player. " ++++
you posted twice on the same subject and this " worry " me about your overall audio system quality performance level.
I don't know if you still have the Cary CDP but even if you have in a good quality performance system the differences between digital and analog are there but IMHO are not so big as I assume you are hearing or heard it.
Digital source is a lot more demanding medium of what is surrounded as an audio items ( audio system. ).
A digital source has a lot lower noise/distortions/colorations/frequency deviations/etc than an analog one.
That higher accuracy level with digital makes that any other " imperfections " through the different links in the audio chain system will comes " alive " where through analog are " hidded " through the it self analog higher imperfections.
IMHO when through digital an audio system gives you " satisfaction " then through the same system the analog alternative gives you " satisfaction " too but its differences are really smallest that we can think and IMHO and especially with DVDA/SACD I think the digital medium outperforms ( overall ) the analog experience ( LPs. ). Yes, there are several very bad CDs recordings but the same is true with LPs.
The advancements in the digital technology IMHO already goes at a level that can compete ( in the right audio system. ) with the analog alternative but this depend not only that your digital source/pklayer be of a latest technology but that your audio system be up to the task.
My today experiences are that if today we are not satisfied with what we are hearing through digital then could be not because the digital medium but we could think why our audio system is not showing what the digital can shows on quality level performance.
IMHO digital today is a lot better that we can think but " we don't know that " because what we heard tell us it is not but maybe and I say only " maybe " we could be wrong and the digital is really better that we thinked.
Anyway, I think that for what you posted about maybe it's time to make a system " check-up ", only my thoughts.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Is it just me, or is the above discussion almost impossible to understand due to spelling and grammatical errors. It almost seems as though I am reading something written by persons for whom english is a second or third language, or by the people who prepare chinese ad copy. I suppose there is good information there, but I just cant work my way through it to find out.
It is just you. You are reading comments from at least one who English is not his native tongue, but has done a pretty damn good job of learning how to explain many technical subjects full of complex jargon. More importantly, he is able it to share a wealth of knowledge with the rest of us.
Your post brings nothing constructive to this conversation, nor any help to the OP. Considering all the interesting contributions I've seen of yours on many topics here, I am surprised by this out-of-character comment.
Programmergeek, it's a shame that unfortunately many local dealers aren't as experienced w/analog these days as they should be. Given your locale, I suggest contacting the NJ Audio Society and attending a few meetings where you might be able to hear some vinyl rigs in members' homes, meet others who've tackled the same issues, and get input into what local dealers really know their analog. There is plenty to be said for a boatload of smart friends! Cheers,
Hi Programmergeek! Have to agree with Stickman about the TW Akustics turntables. I have a Raven One with an Ortofon 12 inch arm and a Dynavector 20XL cartridge and it makes wonderful music, I like vinyl playback through it better than CD's played on my Wadia 830 cd player. I have 1000 LP's so vinyl isnt a side hobby for me. Jeff Catalano at Highwater Sound in Manhattan is a terrific guy, extremely knowledgeable about vinyl equipment and set up, and has 28,000 LP's! You cant go wrong with him or the TW Akustics line, but you probably can do better than the system I was able to afford by getting a Graham B-44 tonearm and a cartridge higher up in the Dynavector line. Good luck in whatever you end up with.--Mrmitch
Sorry you took my comment as being inappropriate. As you noted, that would be out of character. What I was trying to convey is that I was trying very hard to understand what was being said, and getting very frustrated at my inability to work through it to understand. And I think that I am pretty good at figuring things out.
So you've pointed out to me that it is me, not the format of the posts being made. I guess that means that everyone else doesnt have a problem reading and understanding what is being said. So be it. I would just hope that the reason for the format is what you said, and not just laziness on the part of the poster in formulating complete sentences.
I wound up with an Aesthetix IO for the phono stage, still looking for a table there are just not that many dealers around who have anything on display. Besides I find what I hear in the store and what comes out of my room are two different things. Sometimes good sometimes bad. So I have no problem buying blind and learning from someone that knows his stuff.
Tmsorosk, it all depends on your system and what you like. One day I went to listen and the person had a recording on vinyl and the same recording on cd. The table was nothing special maybe a 5k table the cd was a wadia si7 a 15k cd. We listened to both. The record clearly had more depth and information but the cd was cleaner no pops and maybe less background noise. All depends what you like I am a computer guy so I like digital but I have to admit it does miss something somehow it is not as harmonic and just well more digital. But I do think I would listen to cd more than records because of convience.
Programmergeek I agree , I just don't think either format is superior in every way . I have also heard moderately inexpensive vinyl rigs that out classed more pricy digital rigs , but I have also heard the reverse , I no the turntable wasn't set up properly right . There's alot more to setting up and voicing a good digital rig than just buying an expensive player , it's taken me many years and fair bit of $ to get things right , conditioning is of paramount importance . Convenience was one reason I chose to put all my resources into one source , digital , but now it's strictly a sonic preference . I always felt I would hear a friend or club members vinyl rig that would make me want to go back , but so far that hasn't happened , so far . Regards Tim
I'd like to add two somewhat disparate thoughts to the excellent comments above.
a) The recommendation by your dealer to use Basis as a source may be very well grounded in fact, with Basis possibly being a proven, synergystic match with the Vandy's.
I listened last week to a pair of Vandersteen 5 Carbon's that were sourced by a Basis Turntable and powered by ARC signature amps. I'll spare you the platitudes except to say that the result was mindbendingly good. Actually, both Vandersteen rooms had Basis source and ARC amplifications.
I also (after meeting Jim V himself!) spoke with one of the ARC owners who described how ARC and Vandy, and to a lesser extent, Basis, have been used together and have presented together for years.
Not sure what other (sonic?)issues there are, but at least the form factor for all of the 2000 series and above seems at first glance to be very much the same.
b) With your system quality and budget for source component, please do not assume that you have heard anything near the best attainable from digital.
Also give very strong consideration to auditioning one of Playback Designs' products, such as MPS-3 CD/DAC that plays 24/384 KHz PCM and 6.1 MHz DSD over USB from your computer. This system was designed from first principles by the legendary Andreas Koch from Dolby Labs, Sony, etc.
If not as good as high-end analog, it's amazingly close.