My mostest killerest cord...the PAD Dominus...has an effect on which ever component it's placed. So, based on that experience, I'd say put the best cord from the conditioner to the CDP.
But, the bottom line is it's best to experiment both ways.
I'd say use your best cord from conditioner to the wall. But do experiment, I agree with Tvad, as every system is different.
Tvad, I don't follow your reasoning. Can you be a little more specific as to your experiences with your power conditioner? What do you use from your conditioner to the outlet?
Audphile, "you'd say?" Is this what you have done with your power conditioner and power cord. I'm not sure I understand your reasoning or experience either.
Am I learning disabled, or just plain justifiably confused?
Try Virtual Dynamics. You can start with a Nite II. You can purchase them used for around $400-450. If you can swing a little more than I would encourage you to try the Virtual Dynamics Master. I have not heard a cable that extends the soundstage and presents the music like a live performance as Virtual Dynamics. Then again I have not experienced ever cable under the sun.
I also like the Harmonix Studio Master.
Also you might want to contact Robert at Star Sound. They have a new cable out that is above the Plateau series. You know the drill if you do not like it.
Warren, I use two Hydra 2 conditioners. One Hydra 2 has a DCCA Reference, and the other has an Elrod EPS-3 Signature. My PAD Dominus PC is 15a, and it makes a clear improvement whether it's placed on my amplifier, preamplifier, or digital source. So, based on that experience, I'd place my Dominus in the most effective position before I switched cords on the Hydras. None of the four excellent cords I've used on the Hydras has ever had an effect equal to the effect the PAD Dominus has on the equipment. Perhaps this is specific to the Dominus.
You have two cords to swap, correct? Your decision is going to be made much faster by simply swapping them and listening for yourself.
Use your tympanics.
Warren, If you only have one I would suggest plugging the Studio Master into the CD player, not the AM. I have found that while all locations in the system for a powercord are clearly audible, the closest position to the component should give more improvement.
Thanks Grant. Your experiences seem to follow my thinking that the best cord should go from the source to the conditioner. Not too many takers on this thread so far. It will be interesting after a few first handers give their experiences, like yourself, if they, too, found source to conditioner to be the ticket.
Warren, I should have gone into more details. My bad.
"I'd say", because there is no way for me to try with the cords you have. Hydra2 conditioner I use requires 20a IEC power cord to connect it to the wall. Rest of my equipment uses 15a power cords. Besides, based on Shunyata's recommendation(I contacted them once with the same question you are asking here), they suggest using the best pc from conditioner to the wall. I did notice an improvement though when I switched from Shunyata Diamondback to VH Flavor 4 cord from Hydra2 to the wall. All other cords stayed the same. Since you got another brand line cond, why don't you contact the manufacturer. It is your best bet. I just gave you my opinion. If you can try and experiment with the cords you got, then you should be easily able to determine what works better for YOU in YOUR system. After all, you were able to tell that one of the cords is a "killer", so it should be easy for you to find out the best placement for it. Let us know. It would also be beneficial if you react a little differently to the responses posted to your question. Try to keep your composure. Be little more reasonable. People are trying to provide an advise and you're being little rough on your appreciation here, if there's any, I'm not that sure.
Tony if i plug the Studio Master into the cdp, where does the other end go? AM?
I tend to agree with Audiophile1 regarding placement. That said, I would be more concerned with the synergy between two cords from different manufactures than the sequence. Two modest cords that compliment each other will probably yield better results than two killer cords that don't.
Best of luck.
Phalon, no power cord can do what an excellent power conditioner can do. That being said, wouldn't the cord from the outlet to the conditioner, merely be an extension of the wiring in the wall. Now the electric goes into the power conditioner to be purified, etc. then must travel with the finest sonic path available to the source? Therefore the best cord from conditioner to source? Why would one want a mediocre cord to go from conditioner to source. After the electric is conditioned a mediocre cord could have deleterious effects on the electric before it gets to the source. I know what I'm thinking, I hope it is coming out right.
...wouldn't the cord from the outlet to the conditioner, merely be an extension of the wiring in the wall. Now the electric goes into the power conditioner to be purified, etc. then must travel with the finest sonic path available to the source? Therefore the best cord from conditioner to source?
That's my thinking, and this method has been recommended by more than one manufacturer. On the other hand, as Audphile1 said, Shunyata recommends the other approach.
All this clearly echoes William Goldman's words in "Adventures in the Screen Trade" when he wrote, "Nobody knows anything".
Nothing could be more true, no matter how far up the food chain.
Use your tympanics, Warren.
Ahha! Clarity at last. I think I'm thinking what you're thinking. Ouch, that hurts(just kidding). But, what I believe that you are suggesting, is that your pc will fix what ever you feed it, therefore, the good stuff should be between the pc and the equipment. Is that it? That might be valid, depending on the pc. With my Walker Velocitor that is not the case; but with something that regenerates power I could see your point. Still: synergy, synergy, synergy; not just between the cords, but between the cords and the equipment. You're going to have to play with this.
Keep me posted.
I emailed Jerry, asking him the same question. Thinking about synergy: I wonder, since I'm an Audio Magic power conditioner guy, if going with his power cords and ICs, as well, would be synergistic perfection, not only in name, but sound? I wonder....
This may be a bit on the low-end extreme, but last week at my local electronics store (Metro, Sacramento) while getting RCA connectors for a project, I purchased for about $6.00 a 14 ga 6 ft. power cord thinking it has to be better than the 18 ga stuff that comes with everything. I currently use Analysis plus oval silver (highly recommended) cord on small amp, other stuff is just mix and match. I put 14 ga cord on the TV and got same results as the Adcom power conditioner I was trying out (better black levels, crisper edges, smoother not-harsh sound outputted to the receiver)!! If you need something a bit better, I can recommend the standard copper Analysis cord in the $125.00 area. Anyway, I always like to try out the easy cheap stuff first, good luck and let us know what you wind up with.....Mike
Its hard to say, either place you put it will be the weak link. My experience has been that power cords on power conditioners and digital make the greatest difference, I can't tell you which one is greater. I don't agree that the power cord coming out of the wall is simply an extension of the in wall wiring, not with the great differences I've heard in various power cords going to the power conditioner.
You could also argue that since the cord coming out of the wall is the first in the chain it is the most important, it feeds everything to follow. As the others have mentioned, try both ways and see which is best.
A good power cord will be insulated. A Killer power cord will not! ;-)
Hi Warren I use a Virtual Dynamics Nite connecting my dedicated line to an Audio Magic Stealth XXX (the "lowest impedance" cable choice should be used there) which is a very heavy gauge cord having a high current capability.
Then I have my 'killer' (Synergistics' Designer Reference^2 cords) connecting the Stealth's outputs to their respective components. That approach seems to agree with the majority opinion of previous posters above FWIW. However I have never tried an alternate configuration due to cable length limitations, so I can't tell you how that would sound although I do expect that would not work as well.
The AC cable which came along with this Stealth XXX (an Audio Magic Illusion 4D) is "just not that great a cord" (per the sellers' advice) so I haven't even tested with it. Also realize that these A.M. line conditioners typically require quite a long breakin time; therefor any initial conclusions that you reach regarding testing may not be the 'final word' once these things are fully broken in. Hope this helps...
From past experiences with the AM line, break in is very very long. This time AM is doing the full break in for me. I would try to speed things up using a space heater. High current, high amperage pull. A few hundred hours gets the job done, well. Bob, do I really need to be concerned with the "lowest impedance" since I'm only using my AM Digital for my source? Obviously, as you guys have stated; listening is the test, but on paper it would appear we are all in general agreement: cheap to outlet--$$ to source, unless our tympanics tell us differently. I suppose it has always been this way. I'm good to go. thanks for your help.
My experience is to go with the killer cord directly from the outlet to the conditioner, and the good cord from the conditioner to the CDP. Of course you should experiment to see what you prefer. One great way to do that is to purchase an adapter from VooDoo Audio (15 to 20 amp adapter). It works great and doesnt degrade sound. Its cryod however it takes a short break in time. I own one, love it, and highly recommend it.
BTW, I have experimented with your question using my Hydra II and Original Hydra. I really like my Harmonix from the wall to the conditioner because it seems to boost everything coming out of the conditioner.
I would also try killer cord directly from wall straight into the amp. My experience has been to use the conditioner only for source components. It may or may not work for you, but worth a try.
Havent tried out power conditioners,recently bought a Cardas GR and a JPS power cord.They replaced the Signal ones.After 2 weeks I can tell no difference.This is with Counterpoint,Merlin and modded DVD players for system.What to do?Or kaygardnayho as they say in Kathmandu,cheers,Bob
I like the PAD Dominus too, although I've only seriously A-B'd it with PAD Venustas (and the Dominus always wins!)
Right now, I have two Domini, one goes to an Exactpower EP-15A regenerator, and one goes to a Levinson 23.5 amp. They both outperformed the Venustas (which BTW outperformed everything else) in those two positions.
The Venustas now powers a Wadia DAC from an Exactpower SP-15A balanced power unit (the SP bal. gets its power from a 10AWG umbilical to the EP regen.) Again, on the DAC, the Venustas works better than anything else, but I'd like to try a Dominus on the DAC someday.
Question: does anybody understand why big (gauge) power cords seem to work so well with DACs or CDPs? I mean, energy transfer should be adequate for these (low power)devices using smaller size cords. Why do they always (and in my experience it really has been always) sound better with big (conductor size) cords?
Nsgarch, I tried several power cords on my dac and the one that stayed was the Audience. I am not sure it is the total AWG of the cords as much as the design and quality of the connectors used. I tried AZ Tsunami PLus, Shunyata Diamondback and Audience. I am not sure what AWG is Audience cord, but the Diamondback is 12, Tsunami Plus is 11 I beleive. Does anyone know AWG of the Audience PowerChord?
I have been thru so many PC's, from monster, home made, audience, electraglide, elrod, shuyata, virtual dynamics, audioquest, dcca, xindak, shunyata, purist, nordust, bmc, bmi, ridge street, cardas, et et. I am just getting all dominus, and getting off the search.
Sh*t, did I just write dat?
Good is VD Master, Killer is the new Revelation Signature.These cables redefine what is capable from a ground breakingly huge cable.This cable sets the standard in so many areas, that I am still amazed even though it takes 400-600 hours to fully break in!! Virtual Dynamics power cords are breaking new ground in terms of power and resolution.If you doubt,then just try a Master and see
Power cords are WAY overrated. Those are the very last thing one should worry about. IMHO.
How good is the wire in the wall?
That last three feet makes little or no difference.
If it does a conditioner is the route to follow.
"I have been thru so many PC's, from monster, home made, audience, electraglide, elrod, shuyata, virtual dynamics, audioquest, dcca, xindak, shunyata, purist, nordust, bmc, bmi, ridge street, cardas, et et."
What? No Walker Velocitor?
That last three feet makes little or no difference...
Hbarrel (System | Threads | Answers)
I respectfully disagree. My experimentation with power cords, and my hearing tells me the last three feet do make a difference in my system. I can't explain it from a technical perspective, and I have no interest entering into a debate on the topic, but I am willing to be blindfolded to be tested, and I'll bet a good chunk of change I'd be able to tell the difference among cords I have tried in my system.
I agree, Tvad. What is nearest to the component makes the biggest difference. Too bad it is so, since the expense could be avoided.
I also believe the last three feet is important. I was once given the technical reason for this but I can't remember what it is. Sorry.
Also, if I were someone, and that someone knows who he is; I wouldn't be walking around offering to wear a blindfold.
Someone might hasten up a firing squad.
Warren, in a similar scenario my Harmonix X-DC Studio Master sounds better from PLC to preamp with the "lesser" cord used from wall outlet to PLC. The difference was quite significant.
I agree with Tvad (and also respectfully disagree with Hbarrel) and here is a partial post I made to another thread, but first a quote:
"It's all about energy transfer." -- (from a phone conversation I had with Jim Aud of Purist Audio Design)
You may ask, why use cords with conductors that are bigger than what's in the wall? The answer is "Energy Transfer" And the more power a component consumes (amps) -- AND/OR -- a component's frequent need for "nano-bursts" of power (DACs are in this category) the more a bigger conductor size will contribute to improved sonics. OK, you say, but if my wall wiring is 12 AWG, what's the point of using a 10 AWG power cord?
Once again the answer is Energy Transfer. Let me state some obvious facts, and then try and provide an analogy: Alternating current is stored (in your wall circuits) as a potential -- it doesn't do anything until you connect a load of some sort. BUT, that potential changes direction (polarity) 60 times a second. And its strength varies 60 times a second (from 0 volts to 120 volts). In other words, it's not really a "consumable" like natural gas, that gets burned up when it comes out the other end of the pipe (that would be more like direct current, where the battery eventually runs down ;~) No, AC just "sits there" and changes back and forth 60 times a second.
OK, so here's my analogy: let's say the house circuit is a reservoir (imagine the ocean) of energy that's constantly changing in pressure (potential) and direction (polarity) -- (imagine the waves at the shore, rolling in and out.) When you plug your PC into the wall, it's like sticking a pipe into the ocean at the shoreline. The bigger that pipe is, the more accurately the potential and pressure at the other end (the component) will reflect what's going on in the ocean itself. OK, imagine the pipe gets smaller. The pressure at the other end is still the same, but if you use some of it to do some work, it'll take a second for the pressure to build back up (poor energy transfer). AND, if you add to that, the fact that the direction of the "pressure" (pushing in and pulling out) is supposed to change 60 times a second, then the smaller pipe is going to create a lag in polarity changing. That doesn't mean you're going to see 50Hz AC instead of 60Hz, it means that spots of frequency cancellation are created in the "pipe" which further keep the available potential (pressure) from being realized at the other end.
Moral of the story: Especially with 15A wall circuits (as opposed to 20A) and except for low power stuff, like TTs, phono preamps, tuners, cassette decks, CDTs (but not DACS) use the biggest sized conductor power cords you can, even sacrificing fancy shielding and insulation for conductor size if you have to.
That's been my experience so far . . . . . .
Phaelon, this thread is about power cords, not power conditioners, and yes, I have bought, tried, and sold the Walker Velocitor, you Ahole.
The power supply board in most audio gear filters and converts the mains AC to a robust DC that should be stable enough for use in audio circuits under normal conditions.
Special power cords or conditioners should not normally be required except for overly sensitive equipment (poor design) or especially noisy mains AC power.
Hbarrel's point is well taken. I imagine from an electrical engineering standpoint, it doesn't make any sense at all for the few feet of power cord connecting the wall outlet to the component to make any significant sonic impact, but in my opinion, it somehow does.
Believe me, I'd rather save the money I've spent on power cords, but the difference they have made in my system is clear to me and to others who have heard my system, and who have heard the benefits of similar cords in their own systems.
Like most aspects of this hobby, there is no universal right way. There's only the right way for each individual.
My apologies to anyone I have offended in this thread. I intended only to offer help and personal insight.
NSgarch, that's about as thoughtful of a understanding of power cords that I've ever read.