Klipsch Heritage are great horn speakers at a price most could afford. Their magic is in the midrange which is not at all cabinet dependent (the horns, mid and tweet, do not use the cabinet for anything but physical support). There are many techniques to tweak those speakers, which do include cabinet bracing to address the bass cabinet (the only aspect of their performance that would be affected by the cabinet), as well as other simple and elaborate tweaks. I have owned five pairs of Klipsch horn speaker and none of them had a cabinet that "rings like a bell" - I'm not sure how wood could ever do that? If Krellm7 is referring to the metal horns ringing, that can be easily addressed with damping material. Before getting into any of the actual tweaks, which can be found elsewhere in the forum archives and at the Klipsch forums, I'd have to side with Jaybo. Given your current amplification I would never steer you towards Klipsch Heritage speakers. Though some like the combination, I've never liked them much with SS amps and they can sound quite harsh. PW Klipsch designed them for tubes. To my ears that is what they sound best with. If you are sticking with SS amplification, try something different if you want to try new speakers. If you really want to try Klipsch speakers in the price range you stated, and have the room for them, I'd pair a set of Klipschorns off with some great tube amps and save a bit of money for tweaking them (replace the tweet and Xover would be the first thing I'd do). LaScalas do not do the bass very well - they drop off severely at around 50hz. They do mids brilliantly. If you need bass, and don't have the corners for the Khorns, I'd look at Cornwalls. There is a Frankenstein version of those that Bob Crites came up with that he calls "Cornscalas" that might be a direction to pursue if you're a DIY guy too. Again, tubes are where its at with horns IMO.
Marco |
Well OK, if you are comparing the Klipsch cabinet quality with new Polks, Bose, KLH then yes they have good cabinet construction. If you compare them to B&W, NHT, Dynaudio ect..then they are built rather poorly. As a matter of fact, no, I was not comparing the Klipsch cabinets to any of those speakers you mention. I did not comment on the cabinet 'quality' at all, except to say that they could benefit from some additional internal bracing. I also questioned how a wood cabinet could 'ring like a bell', as you suggested. More importantly, regarding the Klipsch speakers, what I said was that the horns that are being used in the Klipsch Heritage line do not depend at all upon the cabinets for any aspect of how they perform (other than being held in position). The midhorn and tweeter would sound the same whether or not they were held inside a cabinet, or supported firmly in space by a simple stand. The folded horn and bass drivers are the only aspect of the performance of those speakers that would be effected by cabinet 'quality'. If you are referring to visual and aesthetic 'quality' I agree with you completely: there are many other speakers that are built and finished better and are more pleasing to most folks in comparison to the rather utilitarian (deliberately so) look of the Klipsch Heritage speakers. As far as how they sound, it's largely a matter of synergy and personal tastes. The bass response could be improved upon by better bracing and more solid cabinets. Most of the magic of the horn speakers are in that midrange though. It does not surprise me one bit that there are those who do not like how they sound, nor does it surprise me that there are just as many who do. I would say the same thing about any speaker or component. You'll always find someone who likes it and someone who doesn't. The Klipschorn was designed back in 1945 And it is still in production! Continuously....for over 60 years! Why, I wonder? How many other speakers can claim that longevity? I can't think of any others, can you? I can't really think of any electronic product that can make that claim. We've come a long way since then, yet a 60 year-old design can still wow quite a few very serious music lovers. It ain't perfect..plenty to improve upon, but a damn find foundation IMO. If there were one perfect speaker, wouldn't all of us agree and covet the exact same thing? Marco |
Lonestarblues reminded me that I have heard one good Klipsch/SS combination where the synergy was good: A pair of KHorns with an SS McIntosh amp (can't recall which)...so I do believe it can work, but synergy is critical, and if you go wrong with SS the sound can drive you out of the room looking for the Advil (which seems to be Krellm7's experience of them). They are much more tube-friendly, than with SS amps. I've heard Carver stuff, but never really thought they sounded remotely like tubes in the various systems I've heard them in. I haven't heard your system, of course. I'd strongly disagree with Lonestarblues' opinion that there might be no lack of bass using LaScalas. In my experience with them, which is is pretty extensive (two pairs, many modifications and comparisons, many different amps, various sized rooms), no matter what you do, short of adding a sub, those speakers will drop off sharply around 50hz or just below. You can squeeze a bit more out of them via room placement (corners), but neither system components nor driver replacement will get you much lower. If that's as low as you like your bass to go, then I guess there'd be no lack of bass. Don't get me wrong, I love the Scalas. Their magic midrange does make up for any lacking downstairs. But if you compare them to KlipschHorns (in corners) or Cornwalls you will see just how much bass they are missing. I don't think they do bass "badly", but if you are counting on real-world bass I would look to other choices. |
You are talking about Klipschorns I am talking about Klipsch in general. The heritage series is constructed a little better than all of there other stuff. Mapman started the thread by asking specifically about LaScalas which are part of the Heritage series. Your immediate response was to criticize the construction of Klipsch speakers so I assumed you were referring to the same speakers that the post addressed. If you responded directly by addressing a criticism at Klipsch in general, I'm not understanding how that applies to what the post was asking about. Which Klipsch speakers have you tried and with what elecronics? Which ones ring like a bell, er, like thin wood?
I can think of a few electronics that people still rebuild or you can still by as new that are 50-60+ years old. Dynaco, McIntosh, Eico...ect
Speakers, JBL, Klipsch, Altec...ect
Which one of those you companies you mention has a product that has been in continuous production for 60 years and is still produced to this day? You are talking about stuff folks rebuild, or that has significantly changed over the time. That is not the same as KHorns. We are talking about a product that a major manufacturer has seen fit to continue to produce for 60 years continuously with only minor changes over that time period. A product in a consumer tech market which still enjoys great success amidst the competition of products that take advantage of all kinds of advances in technology. It is not a re-issue, or an anniversary model, or a special edition. Again, I don't think it's perfect, but it's an extraordinary achievement. Also, I'm not arguing that the Heritage series is constructed better or worse than other speakers. I have said what I thought of their construction, and it is pretty much in line with what you've said - they are deliberately utilitarian in design and could benefit from additional internal bracing. As far as Klipsch, the company in general, is concerned, the Heritage series is the only speakers I've heard from them, other than perhaps the Forte's and Chorus, that are worth listening to IMO. I have not heard that new $13K Klipsch P-39F Palladium they recently announced though. Mapman - I've not heard Carver + Klipsch Heritage, but my guess would be you could do better with tubes. The downside of experimenting in the direction of trying a LaScala, or KHorn are that they are large and difficult to move around, and may be more of challenge to turn over should you not choose to keep them. Cornwalls may be a bit more manageable, but not by much. It's a major commitment, in other words, in spite of the relatively reasonable price. I wonder if you could find a local A'goner who has a good horn setup that you could listen to...that or a dealer or one of the shows could give you some sense of what, in very broad terms, to expect. In general, the advantages of horns is that they are lightening fast and very dynamic. They can be champions at soundstaging, and in my experience have an almost airy quality to their presentation. On the downside they can be very forward sounding, and even aggressive with the wrong amp (forward is otherwise not necessarily a bad thing). Some folks have described the sound they get from them as "shouty" like someone speaking through cupped hands. I have not had that experience of them other than poor combinations with SS amps. They are also very efficient in general, so require less power and can be driven by lower powered triode and single-ended amps. Marco |
The George Wright AU-1000 preamp I own is actually the same preamp Boa2 once owned. He sold
it to a another guy. And I bought it from him. Well, I can still say with great confidence that the LaScalas drop off severely just under 50hz. If you consider that adequate bass, then so be it, that's all you need! The LaScalas Howard owned that you mentioned were purchased from me, as was the preamp you now own (great little pre btw). Howard's an old friend of mine. He now owns a pair of Khorns. Last time I was there he was using a high powered McIntosh SS amp to push them, though I think he's gone back to SET lately. If you really want to find out how low they go, buy yourself a sound pressure meter from Radio Shack and take some measurements. That's how I came to these conclusions. I've done it in several rooms with two pairs of LaScalas and various amps and preamps, including the very one you now own. If your results are vastly different I'd like to know your secret(s). Cool beans though...I'm glad you're getting the lows you want from them - they're great speakers. Yep, crossovers and tweeters are the first things I'd change..oh, and the zip cord that passes for internal wires. Marco |
Mapman - Boa2 had his Khorns in a relatively small room and they sounded great there. I'd say the really difficult aspect of using the room you describe is the square ratio which is one of the worst proportions for a good listening room. You may have to address that with room treatment no matter what speakers you put in there (assuming you have not already). You can search the archives as I think this has come up before in various threads. I think you need to consider some of the other excellent offerings from Klipsch that use woofers for the lows. All the ones mentioned here do use woofers for the lows. I think what you meant was forward firing woofers, as opposed to woofers used within a folded horn. In the Klipsch Heritage line the forward firing options are limited to the Cornwall and Heresy. The latter is not a bad little speaker either, but you wouldn't be getting a full dose of horn magic IMO, and the bass response is quite limited as well. The Forte and Chorus also have forward firing woofers (as well as a passive rear-firing woofer in the back). Again, nice speakers (more for rockin' IMO), and there you would get all the bass you'll need, but if you want a full heaping helping of Klipsch horn magic, my recommendation would be the larger horns in the Heritage line (Khorn, LaScala, Belle). Marco |
Are all Klipschhorns, save those with custom upgrades, created equal? Any variations in particular to levitate towards or steer away from? There's plenty to read on the Klipsch forums as far as opinions on this go. The drivers and the crossover have changed over time. I would look for the K55M mid drivers with metal horn bodies (as opposed to later models using plastic for the body - I would also damp the metal horns with damping material such as Dynamat or the equivalent sold cheaper at Parts Express, or with plumbers caulk), and the K77 round-magnet tweeters (as opposed to square magnet). I would actually recommend replacing the tweeters as a high priority (unfortunately this requires some effort as the better drop-in replacements, like the Beyma, are a bigger form-factor. I have heard the Crites drop-in replacement and was not at all impressed - go for the Beyma or Fane). Big, immediate gains can be had there. The crossover would my next target, especially if an older speaker. With the LaScalas the desired stock Xover is the AA model. I'm not sure what the Khorn's might be. I believe the speakers that conform to those components I've mentioned were late 60's to early 80's. Obviously if you can find a pair locally you will save some large coin and headache on the shipping. Marco |
yes a very thin piece of wood with almost no internal bracing. My buddy uses Forte II as DJ speakers, they are good for that.
I have had Chorus, KLF 30, KG 3.5, KG 5.5, Hersey, some others I cant think of. KLF-30 were my last pair, got a pair of B&W 602.5 and never looked back. Again, I find myself baffled (pun intended) given your experience, or seeming lack thereof, with Klipsch Heritage products, on your willingness to comment on them in this context. The only Heritage product you've tried, it seems, is the Heresy. I can tell you with great assurance that the Heresy, KLF-30, and Chorus are a far cry from a Khorn or LaScala or Belle Klipsch, when set up right. I have not heard any of the other modern Klipsch speakers you have owned, nor would I care to as I haven't liked any of the post 80's stuff they've marketed to the mass market. Your comments in that respect do not surprise me. If that's the only experience I'd had with Klipsch I might feel the same way, though I think the Heresy's and Chorus are very good speakers for the money, especially with tube amps. yes a very thin piece of wood with almost no internal bracing. You made this comment regarding someones reference to a pair of Forte II speakers. They are 35" floorstanders that weigh in at about 56 lbs each. They're constructed of 3/4" MDF with a real wood veneer outer layer. When I've rapped on the sides of the two pairs I have owned it never occurred to me that they were made of thin wood, or were lightweight materials (the very well reviewed Epos speakers have occured to me this way, yet they are able to produce some pretty good sound in spite of it). They actually occurred to me as pretty solid speakers overall, quite well built, albeit in an economic and utilitarian design. If you look at the 85 real-world reviews at AudioReview.com, where Forte II's maintain a 4.93/5 which is nothing to dismiss, you would note many comments about their solid construction. I don't think they're the last word in that regard, but they're certainly not deserving of the comment you seem to be directing at them. That said, I'd agree that, as I said before, they're more speakers I'd recommend to someone who wanted to rock-out, and yes, they'd make good DJ speakers in that respect (Chorus are Forte's on steroids). They do really well with punchy push-pull tube amps. Typically they go on the used market for $400-600/pair. At that price, set up right, they're pretty hard to beat in many respects, and offer great bang/buck. They are not the last word in refinement, and they are not in the same league as the larger horn speakers in the Heritage line, which Mapman asked about in the first place. Marco |
