GMA Callisto VS. Merlin TSM

"REMARKS : It is extremely transparent/sensitive and very picky for recording. I am going to try different phono stages and cables to make it more forgiving for some situations I have to play lower-fi recordings"
Minbeam, those words you wrote struck a nerve. The ability to play and enjoy ANY recording is one of the primary advantages of time/phase aligned speakers. I no longer have un-listenable or un-enjoyable recordings in my collection since purchasing the GMA speakers.

I personally don't see how these two speakers can be similar in presentation. GMA uses a 1st order, time and phase aligned crossover network. Merlin uses a 2nd order, non time and phase aligned crossover. Merlin doesn't devulge it's design secrets, but in a thread on Audio Asylum, Bobby from Merlin did say the drivers were wired in phase. If thats true, (and designers feel free to chime in here if i'm wrong), you will have a 3db "suck out" at the x-over point requiring additional crossover parts to "smooth out" Most 2nd order designers choose to wire one driver out of phase to avoid this suck out. Without taking sides on one or the other, I would think these two designs probably would not have the same presentation. They both use good drivers, proper internal bracing, etc. Big difference here is in the crossover used. Hope that helps.

Bobby, it seems you have found a way to avoid that customary 3db suckout at the crossover that other in phase 12db/octave speakers exhibit. Congratulations! I understand why you would be reluctant to discuss this further. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Troy, I never said that a non time/phase coherent speaker can't sound good. They can and do sound good. Some sound VERY good. I simply happen to think the speaker in my audio system should be able to faithfully reproduce the original waveform that is recorded on my cd's/vinyl, etc, keeping true to frequency response, time and phase coherency (as those are key's to making music sound like music)without adding audable distortions of any kind. When the output from a speaker bears no resemblance to the input from the amplifier, how can that speaker be said to be faithfully reproducing the signal on the recordings? This alone pretty much eliminates the vast majority of loudspeakers from my list. I cannot live with one half to one full cycle of phase shift from my speakers. If this represents a "valid" design in your mind, buy it. If you think my idea of what a speaker should/should not do is narrow minded, so be it. I tend to think people who can't see the obvious advantages time/phase coherency represent are close minded. So we agree to dissagree. Ok?

Minbean,
You say you don't understand my viewpoint. Allow me to try to explain. Relative phase is a circular function and cycles through the same start point like the hands of a clock — 360° of phase equals one full rotation or cycle. Because phase describes the relative time difference between two signals, it can be expressed in degrees or radians, which measure the completed portion of a circular period or wavelength. For example, 90° of phase delay is a quarter of a period (wavelength) at any frequency. The amount of time delay it takes to move apart 90°, however, is frequency-dependent. Thus, a given time delay will produce different amounts of phase shift at different frequencies. In other words, what you have with higher order speakers (12db/octave or higher) is essentially a time delay circuit that adds a different amount of delay to each and every frequency. Therefore, what you have is not your 0.01 second delay across the entire frequency spectrum as in your sample, but a delay that varies with frequency, something quite un-natural. Putting it another way, that 0.01 delay at 50hz is magnitudes higher at 1khz or 16khz. It is heard on complex music. Live sound direct from an instrument to our ears does not have delay that changes with frequency superimposed on its original response. It is an artifact of speaker physics. Does that help? Taking nothing away from the Merlins, I agree with elsneb.... audition the Callisto's also.

Jim2
Again, comments I make get twisted and blown out of proportion. I did not say the GMA speakers make all recordings sound good. I said they make them more enjoyable and more listenable. Again they do this by not adding additional phase distortions to already distorted recordings. If you can't understand how this would make a poor recording more enjoyable, i'm sorry.

Minbean,
I appologize if I came across as pushy, as that was not my intention. I was, and am trying to help you find the source of your problem (hence the headphone recomendation). I'm hoping the speaker is not the problem, in all honesty. Bobby has been very helpful to customers and potential customers alike. He is one of the few designers that takes time to respond publically to customers needs and questions. That says a lot about him as a person. I respect him for that even though we don't see eye to eye.

Bobby, it is my understanding that the mathematics involved in a second order filter dictate that, at the crossover point, you have one leg that has gone 90 degrees inductive and the other leg has gone 90 degrees capacitive. The two legs are 180 degrees out of phase; one is leading and one is lagging. If you wire the drivers in the same phase on both sides of that crossover, what you end up with is a null at the crossover frequency. You say you have no null and wire the drivers in phase.

"Such good sound in such modest settings - to me, it felt that the speaker had removed the speaker-room equation"
It has been minimized via physics. One of the great things about GMA speakers is that they sound good with most any amplifier. I agree with Bombaywalla, at least LISTEN to the Callisto in your room. It will take a few days to get used to the time/phase coherence of the product (after all, you've spent a lifetime hearing non time/phase aligned speakers) but once you do, you'll likely never go back to high order speakers again. I never dreamed that the crossover was screwing up so much in speakers I had previously owned and listened to. Minbean you should read the design concepts pages on the GMA website. VERY informative even if your NOT buying GMA speakers, you'll learn plenty about design. Might help you in your future purchases. Good luck.

Minbean,
Never did I say ONLY GMA was good. I have not listened to the TSM, but I would expect them to sound very good....perhaps a little up front. They use excellent drivers, good cabinetry and are well designed. Fullrange speakers have more phase shift than 1st order crossovers exhibit. I am not confusing hi-fi speakers with musical instruments, I feel the job of the speaker is to reproduce what goes into it with flat frequency response, good dynamic response and phase response. As far as the recordings go, some of them have distortion, i'm not arguing that fact. All one need do is listen, right? Here's what i'm saying, and i'll try to put it as plain as possible. If your speaker has phase shift (most do) when you playback a distorted recording, the speaker's phase distortion is distorting everything that comes into it,including any recorded distortions, so your hearing distorted distortion. It's a multiplicative process, not additive. It's similar to using a distored signal coming out of a source and feeding it into your amplifier. Your multiplying distortions, except in the speakers case, your adding a different amount of time delay to every frequency, something no amplifier does. All you really know is that there are many "poor recordings" you can't play, can't enjoy. Many performances "you just don't get" You stated this in your previous thread. I had the same problem until I purchased GMA speakers. I now find myself listening to music I would have never listened to before. Why? It never connected with me on a musical level. Do my speakers mask sounds? No. I can easily pick out a ribbon mic or individual mic feeds in recordings. What they don't do is add phase distortion to already distorted recordings. THAT is why they make so called bad recordings more listenable. Can't say it any simpler than that. Hope that makes sense. I don't want to argue with you.....i'm trying to tell you why, in my opinion, some of your recordings are harsh. One way to find out is to play these harsh recordings thru some electrostatic headphones, as they have no phase shift. If the recordings are still harsh, it's the recordings. If they sound less harsh, perhaps i'm right.