Power conditions are good and bad.
You would be best to get one, and experiment.
Remember plenty of them are just smoke and mirrors, especially the overpriced ones.
A good power conditioner will make the benefits of good power cords more apparent, and vice versa.
"Remember plenty of them are just smoke and mirrors, especially the overpriced ones."
Just like power cords.
It's the old 'weakest link' analogy. You really can't skimp anywhere in the power chain if you want your gear to give it's best.
I'm looking at a APS model which has legitimate features like constant 120v, and runs off a battery (which takes the Power Company out of the equation) etc.
I have modest $500 PC cables now, and figure that I could switch to 10g copper ones, with double sheilding and good connectors for about $100 each
Why not.. Im dealing with clean A/C output, so I figure that all I need is a neutral delivery system - your thoughts?
NB: Besides the "smoke and mirrors" aspect of some PCs, sometimes you're paying for legitimate technology to actually filter out some of your A/C problems..(which can can sometimes justify expensive cables) so why not a $100.00 nuetral cable for clean A/C applications?
My suggestion is to buy your power cords used. The $100 10awg cords
might seem like a good deal now, but if you find they don't make a
difference in the sound of your system, then you will quickly want to sell
them...at a 40-50% loss. This of course, is assuming they're new at
$100/ea. The other side of the scenario is that the $100 cords are
beneficial to the sound of your system. If this is so, and if you are like
95% of audiophiles, then you will quickly sell the $100 cords to upgrade
to something better. Again, you will sell at a 40-50% loss. Just the way it
You could be in the rare 5% of audiophiles and decide the $100 cords
are perfect and you decide to keep them. If you're one of these, then I
suggest starting your own Audiophile Counseling service to help the rest
of us...and pay for your system upgrades in the process. :)
"sometimes you're paying for legitimate technology to actually filter out some of your A/C problems" - and what else are you filtering?
If you're considering paying big $ for cords, work on your AC delivery into the house first.
The ones who usually make the biggest noises about AC cords are the same ones who recoil in horror regarding dbt - golden ears and clothesless emperors just seem to go together.
How else could a 2 year old epiphany that cost $4500 and was a soundstaging wonder now be selling for less than $400? Has AC changed so much? Have power cords advanced so much? Please. A fool and his money.... - you know the verse.
Get clean AC into the house first, then a decent conditioner or regenerator. If a cord mkes that much difference then you have crappy power supplies in your components.
How else could a 2 year old epiphany that cost $4500 and was a soundstaging wonder now be selling for less than $400?
Snofun3 (System | Threads | Answers)
I understand the point you are making with this example, but it's an extreme example. $4500 Electraglide power cords never had a street price of more than about $800 as far as I know. Anyone with any shopping savvy knew this. The $4500 retail price was a joke. With that in mind, the present asking price of $400 is a 50% discount from the street price of a new Electraglide power cord, and it's in keeping with the normal discount of used gear...especially wire.
Which further illustrates my point about the advantage of buying used.
your prior post is the best articulated statement that i have ever read of the psycho-pathology of audiogoners (myself included). Bravo!
Snofun - I have agree with you that if are dealing with clean A/C to start, and using a neutral PC, and still not satisfied - than you probably have a crappy PC, or somewhat insatiable...
-The question is then can you get a neutral PC for 100.00?
-Do some swear by expensive PCs because they help mask some other fundamental problem?
I've had 2000$ PCs before until one day I realized I had no clothes...
You can easily get a neutral PC for $100. You can get a neutral PC for under $10.
My experience tells me expensive PCs eliminate/filter hash and lower the noise floor. Most use a combination of wire geometry, shielding and filtering to accomplish this. Some are neutral and others are not.
Hi Tvad, as a fellow Audiogoner, I have read many of your posts and you always seem to give very good advice in this insanity we call a hobby. I may be looking to purchase a new cdp soon. My system is currently a DK Signature integrated, all Acoustic Zen wire, Modwright Sony 999ES, Jolida JD 100 and Reimer Wind Rivers speakers- w/ Shunyata Hydra 2 and soon an Audio Magic Mini Stealth. I will soon be getting two dedicated lines and will be using hospital grade plugs (Leviton) -I currently have FIM 880's which I don't like.
Can you recommend a cdp that is great at the frequency extremes? (in other words crystalline highs, weight, heft and power in the low end (not lean), and one that you have heard perform in this manner in more than one system? I'm trying to find a cdp that can perform well in differing systems. (not one whose performance is highly system dependent) My price range is $3000-$3500 used. Thanks for your help. Emerson
Emerson, we should probably have this discussion in an email so we don't hijack this thread.
Awwww nuetrality. Are we talking of a power cord's tonal neutrality but which obliterates the 3-dimensional portrayal of instruments .... or can I get all this in a $100 (or even a $10) power cord too?
Are we talking of a power cord's tonal neutrality but which obliterates the 3-dimensional portrayal of instruments .... or can I get all this in a $100 (or even a $10) power cord too?
Jafox (Threads | Answers)
What say you, John?
How are the RCA's working in your DK?
Happy New Year,Bob
IMO, finding a PC that is tonally neutral and has powerful dynamics and clarity top-to-bottom is not easy. Most of the tonally neutral PC's I've tried are lacking in dynamics and/or clarity, while many of the more powerful sounding PC's seem to have serious colorations.
Honestly, it wasn't until I started building my own PC's that I got a handle on what a neutral PC sounds like. With the huge number of possible combinations of conductor, geometry and terminations, the 'flavors' become a bit mind-numbing after awhile. I know I've personally auditioned 144 different combinations, and only about 10 percent seemed relatively neutral to my ears.
Of course, my experience has also taught me that getting cable fanatics to agree on what exactly is 'neutral' is a pretty tough gig. :)
My experience is, for amps you dont need power conditioner
but for cdp and preamp is very important.PS audio 300 and
less than $500 pc like the Audience VD nite and DCCA will
probably work,IMS it works.
Could you please share with us - your top 3 most neutral PCs discovered?
I was referring to PC's that I've built.
I use all Shunyata Research for my power requirements in my system and could not be happier with the end results...8*)... I would suggest that if anyone has issues or requirements with pc's or plc's for (any particular piece of equipment) that they may own, that, you give said manufacturer a call and ask them their thougts on power issues. After all, they should know what works best with what they build... Happy New Year...
"give said manufacturer a call and ask them their thougts on power issues. After all, they should know what works best with what they build..."
And when the manufacturer says it won't make a difference such as Pass Labs and Bryston, we should immediately say they're imbeciles, don't have either ears or equipment suitable of adequate resolution, and smugly saunter off knowing that they're fools. Or not?
I owned Bryston amps in the past. They were the most impervious to aftermarket power cords of any amps I've owned.
Maybe they had the best power supplies.
And the Pass Labs reason is...?
Bryston does not say "it won't make a difference" in reference to power cords.
Also, DBT fails miserably at proving audible differences when comparing amps of similar design and power rating. Are you saying you're imagining the superior sound of your Bryston amp?
Bryston indicates on their site that they do not recommend the use of aftermarket cords assuming that they are not too small to limit input current, which anything at a 10 gauge should satisfy. To me that's close enough to no difference.
"DBT fails miserably at proving audible differences when comparing amps of similar design and power rating."
Which makes sense. The funny thing is when we hear the golden ears talk about the latest mind blowers, yet recoil in horror when asked to identify it under dbt conditions. Funny, funny.
I don't know what you're trying to say in your last sentence. I'm not saying anything about my Bryston amp if you read my posts. I like it. That OK with you?
Now on to the Pass Labs.......
Bryston had a statement on their site indicating that if the cord was of adequate size and did not limit current, then, in their opinion, there was no point in using expensive aftermarket cords.
"DBT fails miserably at proving audible differences when comparing amps of similar design and power rating."
OK, that makes sense, and I agree. Then why do so many golden ears go all apoplectic when it's suggested that they couldn't identify their flavor-of-the-day epiphany (amps, cords, i/c's) via dbt? If its that mind blowing, you reasonably have to believe it could be identified on a statistically consistent basis - yes?
"Imagining the superior sound....". I Don't know where you get this as I didnt make any qualitative statements. It sounds good to me I hope thats OK with you.
Now - comment regarding Pass' position?
Bryston states that they believe "filtering" power cords impact the 60hz AC current, therefore reducing the performance of their amplifiers, which implies that they do believe PC's make a difference, but that in their opinion it's a negative one. But since they don't specify what they consider to be a "filtering" power cord, it's a pretty meaningless statement. All cables "filter" based on their LC values. So either Bryston thinks that the LC values of their supplied PC's are ideal, or they're simply not making a thorough enough statement of their opinion for me to debate the facts.
I could take two of Bryston's supplied AC cords, and cryo treat one, and even you could hear the difference, if you bothered to listen. So is Bryston wrong? In my opinion, absolutely.
As for Pass Labs; I don't know what they have to say about PC's, and I doubt debating their opinion would change anything, so I won't bother.
As for my comments about DBT testing of amps, I was simply referring to the fact that there are those that believe that any two similarly spec'd amps sound the same, and that DBT proves it. And since you're indirectly advocating DBT, I just thought you'd like to address the issue of why you bought a Bryston amp, when you could have bought a Crown pro amp with similar (or better) specs for far less money. Did you buy the Bryston because you believe it sounds better, or just for the warranty?
Bryston's wrong, Pass (by association) is also wrong. Man, to be an Agon expert. Is there a test to take, or is it just a self-annointing thing?
Note also I wasn't indirectly advocating DBT, I was directly advocating it. Usually those who are most against it are the ones who have the most to lose in their proclamations and insecurities.
I bought the Bryston because I like the color of the lights.
Audiogon expert diploma: for sale: $10,000.
Send me the money in small bills, cash.
I guarantee that the diploma will give you credence as an "Audiogon Expert First Class"
(I myself cannot afford the diploma, so give me a break on my responses....)
Snofun3,Or not, My suggestion to call the manufacturer was just that, "a-suggestion". Some times the use of a contact point can help you come to conclusions which will work best for you and your particular set-up and needs. Nothing in this hobby is written in stone as you seem to suggest in your responses. If I happen to find a piece of equipment that works for me I will purchase it, regardless of whether or not somebody thinks contrary to my opinion. Freedom of choice is good,so have at it...
Aolmrdl - I completely agree with your suggestion.
I was just pointing out how respected manufacturers, with intelligent engineers and designers, who have produced esteemed products over decades of experience, and assumedly spend many hours and $ testing their products under varying conditions and environments, are quickly degraded if their conclusions don't match that of some hobbyist.
Again, I agree with you, and I was only pointing out what became reinforced soon after making the comment.
I never "degraded" Bryston in any way. It seems your intent is simply to mock those you disagree with, rather than have a reasoned debate, so I won't indulge you.
As a parting shot, I'd just like to remind you that DBT does not prove that no difference exists, only that the difference (if any) is beyond the sensitivity of DBT testing.
Enjoy the lights on your Bryston.
Tplavas, Thanks for your parting shot. Convoluted logic reins, and you mention "reasoned debate"?
DBT does not prove that no difference exists, only that the difference (if any) is beyond the sensitivity of DBT testing". Huh?
Again, when I hear about so many epiphany's, such as your cryo'd cord that "even I'd be able to hear a difference with" (and I'm the mocker?), which drop jaws, lift veils, and makes life worth living, then find convoluted ways to obfuscate the fact that often the only way someone could identify the latest world beater on a statistically relevent basis was when it had a 1,000 watt neon arrow blinking above it, the contention becomes rather thin.
It's not "beyond the sensitivity of DBT testing", it's beyond the sensitivity of the subject's ears to differentiate the difference, meaning the amount of perceived difference is not significant enough for someone to recognize at better than a guess level.
Try another parting shot.