I'm saddened even more by the British Press releasing his plagued faults. I guess when another talent passes and I'm not talking superstar. They will once again disclose the fault that took their life too. Raferty like many other born talents will be sadley missed for his contribution to the era. Rest in peace and don't mind the ignorance of the press after you passed ............
It doesnt bother me they released why he died, people will want to know. I wish these talented folks could live a better life so they didnt leave us so soon.
Same here, these great talents always live some sort of miserable lifestyle and leave early, what a shame.
It's not necessary to reveal things of that nature. They should have had more respect for his family.
I disagree. It's news plain and simple and the cause of death is part of it. Perhaps I'm callous but sticking your head in the sand to ignore the news doesn't somehow make it better. Alcohol and drug-related deaths are nothing to hide. Perhaps such information will save someone some day from a similar fate.
I feel similarly about the moratorium on showing fallen US soldiers being unloaded from planes. Perhaps the public should be forced to see and understand, just like they knew in Vietnam.
Why shouldnt they say how he died? If it was a car accident people would like to know it wasnt expected. If it was cancer, it could lead to raised money towards a cure, for his death it could be a cautionary tale.
Facts are facts, as long as its not too graphic its all part of the record.
Not reporting cause of death in today's media rich society would be the equivalent of hiding one's head in the sand. Anyone can research a person's life to the nth degree via the internet, notwithstanding accuracies of reporting. One doesn't need the gory details but to state the cause of death is part and parcel of obituary writing.
I really like Gerry Rafferty's music and yet, his untimely death to alcoholism is yet another example which I can reference when discussing with my children the seriousness and all-too-real dangers associated with alcohol and drugs.
I still have trouble coming to terms with the death of my own friends due to alcoholism. Reporting the facts may just send a strong enough message to people on the edge.
It's a damn shame anyway you look at it.
I agree tell people how they died. Especially when it related to substance abuse. Maybe one just person will wake up and get control of their life. Maybe just maybe.
That in itself should warrant disclosure.
We will always disagree on something to quote "clowns to the left of me jokers to my right, here I am, stuck in the middle with you".
Not that long ago people would not speak openly of cancer. Alcoholism is a medical disease not a character flaw. I've read nothing in the press, British or otherwise that I would consider disrespectful to Mr. Rafferty.
No its also a character flaw IMO, they go hand in hand. Yes its a disease but a flaw in character can be weakness or denial in dealing with it. Weakness in character also lets these addicts break their loved ones hearts over and over, weakness in character allows some to steal and commit violent crimes to feed whatever the disease may be, drugs, gambling, drink and on. The are many MANY times equally destructive and share equal blame.
So it often is just as much about character as it is illness. Atleast some of these events gets folks talking and may help somebody come out on a better end then Rafferty. You will be missed and God be with you, thanks for the music!
Chadnliz, we could debate that topic ad nauseum. Denial is part of the 'disease'. Denial is the thing that so often prevents an addict from getting help. Addict or not, we all have flaws. The addiction becomes the central principal in one's life. The fallout follows and becomes part and parcel. Alcoholism can also be hereditary and/or learned. Mr. Rafferty's father was an alcoholic. None of this absolves anyone of responsibility. End of rant.
I think its a little or lot of both, I have seen a few examples in my own life of folks who were piece of shits long before being addicted use it as a excuse for all their bad deeds so I know for a fact it happens.
When somebody is a scumbag from the get go thats a character issue, to see them try to manipulate this disease concept into their own benefit is a disgusting thing to witness. I know sadly there are many who know exactly what I am talking about.
Well atleast this sad event got people talking if even for only a very short time.
I need never look down upon another human being unless I am bending down to help them stand back up on their own two feet.
Long before the addict admits his or her disease, the family and friends already know something is amiss. Airing the surmised reasons for death should come as no surprise
at least not to them..
As for news reports, just like the death penalty is no deterrent to capital crimes, all the tv, news casts, web shots, blogs, celebrity chasing poporotcy in the world isnt going to stop anything. Its sure no preventative measure, no propolactic or insulator against anyone contracting alcoholism or drug dependencies just because they read someone else dies from it. Weve been anesthetized to the news
. Quite commonly. Only the more jarring headlines catch us up at odds.
for a second reflect back and ask yourself, Did anyone you knew, sit around the high school or college campuses and say, I wanna be a junkie when I grow up!
Of course not. But some do. Bander is right. It is a disease. Its ddocumented. Its treatable. There are numerous accounts of full recoveries worldwide.
Its also the most misunderstood, enigmatic and increasingly involving, duynamic of its kind. Its no simple matter. Some say its in the genes some say its moral lack. Others point to .it being a simple matter of choice.
Someof these pundants
are clueless and very much so. Even some of the so called professionals selling the recovery game itself. Its why addiction carries such a dark social spectre about it. No one really knows, but those who face it every minute of every hour of every day for the rest of their lives.
We know how bad Pancretitis is. We know how bad Pancreatic cancer is.
if you have ever had it yourself. If not, you can only speculate. Routinely it is terminal.
We lost a member here not long ago who had Pancreatic cancer. He also was a major contributor to the music industry, colabberating and writing his songs that were published. Playing live concerts well into his 60s
while struggling with Pancreatic cancer.
He was also a recoverd alcoholic. With sixteen years of recovery to his credit. Not drinking one day at a time. No matter what came his way. With a dire prognosis having been handed him, he had every reason in the world to have a drink in many peoples opinions.
Not in the mind of a recovering alcoholic though. One cant conditionalize their mending from this malady. His integrity, his calm manner when we spoke, and the lightness of our talks always wer uplifting for me.
He never related to me his trials with pancreatic cancer or that his condition was terminal. Never. Not once. It was a shock to learn this later./
I met him by accident and we talked. Shortly thereafter I had a run in with acute Pancreatitis . he was instrumental in my recovery and attitude during that time frame
. For following my stay in the hospital for about a week, I was informed I had cancer.
Pancreatic cancer. Colon Cancer
and Adrenal gland cancer as well. I hit the tri fecta. Finally I won something big!
That was almost four years ago come next memorial Day. For four or five months I wondered about a lot of things.
There is nothing that has quite the benefit of one so afflicted person helping another so in the same tracks
as Ive been told. I find that a very true statement looking back on my own exp talking to Paul.
Mores the pitty every time a life is needlessly wasted. A life given to addiction is a life of futility, frustration, despair, bewilderment, and incomprehensible demoralization. It simply does not have to be so.
It aint just about character. Albeit there are all sorts of them subscribing to this program or that for their own recovery today, thats for sure.
As I understand it, and from what Ive heard here and there, , To a person, along the way seldom if ever, does any addict or alcoholic think to themselves the ultimate penalty will be theirs to pay as the result. So strong is the denile.
Ive been told its a disease which says you havent got it when you do. It says, You can fix it when you cant. tells you, Its not as bad as it really is, and it uses your own voice to speak these things. It says the same thing everyday
until no one is there to listen to it anymore.
Gerry Raffertys demons have stopped talking now.
Numerous times people have said, Its pure insanity
and denile, vanity, and the rest of the 7 deadly sins are the arrows which fill its quiver. Its more than just that of course, much more
and why its such an unfathomable dilemma.
Science and research say, It affects every person who comes in contact with the addict or alkie. The whole family. Nuclear and extended
. Not just the afflicted one themselves. Its a tremendous force, For which there is still no known chemical cure, but it can be arrested from further development, and a full recovery can definitely be made from it. With help. With time. A little work, a lot of Grace, And some major changes.
I especially hate to see anyone, celebrity or not, die for no good reason. The disease of addiction is not a good enough reason to forfeit ones life. The main problem is no amount of help, love, education, assistance, incarceration, punitive measures, financial penalties
nothing outside the individual affected can effect the changes needed within them to forestall the ominous forboding future that is theirs by their own hands.
Only that one whos got it, can do anything about it, or so Ive been informed.
Additionally, when or if they get that brief moment of clarity, or some say divine intervention, they bneed lots of help. Lots of support
. For a indeterminate amount of time. For they can not unspring the trap they set for themselves by their own hand early on unless they gain such aid..
We all know too well sometimes they do nothing about it, and the results are always cast into stone
. They go insane and are institutionalized, become a danger to the public and are locked away in jails or prisons, or they die a needless, miserable and very often, lonely and unwarranted death
Its because we as a society do not understand the disease of addiction that we are unable to separate the person
from the behavior.
Very often the ill ones are acting against their own wills! Oh
and will power? Thats no good for their recovery either. Once in a while you might hear someone say, the disease of addiction is in part, self will run riot.
They are indeed quite literally, out of control. Nearing madness and qualifying as insane. How sane is someone who continues to do the exact same thing and expect different results? Addicts do it routinely
either consciously. , or sub consciously
. Day after day after day after day. Harming themselves and everyone they come into contact with regularly.
Still we cant divide from them the one we know or love and their behaviors
at times. If indeed they had a choice we know theyd make the right one
their disease affords them no choice in their minds. Thats the insanity under which they exist
endlessly. Causing more harm, destroying lives, undoing trusts, burning bridges before they even get to them! They keep on incorporating more amd more shame, and guilt., and they are indeed changed by it all. Becoming someone who looked like someone we knew, but now that person isnnt visible to us anymore.
Their there! Right there in front of us, but we cant see them any more, for the hurts they have delivered unto us. The trouble theyve caused. The harms theyve done. The lies. The broken promises. Our own resentments of themstand in our way. , Weve meshed their choices and behaviors into this new vision we see them as. The liar. The thief. The drunk. The junkie.
Pouring gas on a fire wont put it out contrary to popular opinion. .
I need never look down upon another human being sick or otherwise, unless I am bending down to help them stand back up on their own two feet.
How very, very, sad is it to say someone is beter off dead, than alive? Its tragic. Its pitiful. And its going to happen again. The odd part of it is you can never tell just who will die or who will recover from the abyss of addiction.
Personally, I would have figured Joe Cocker not to have lasted through the 70s! Id have bet a lot on that one. ya just never know.
The solution? IMHO ?? its all about Grace
and I dont mean Slick either.
There is one thing people can do to help the infirmed, they can pray. Oh, and they can conceive the person is afflicted by a disease
and not merely a jerk. One dcan try thinking about addicts as some other adversely affected social group. Like people who have MS. Turrettes. Kidney disease. Diabetics. Malaria. Sure, there are a few diffs
. The main fact however is this
They are sick. Sick and usually, dont know it. Not early on at least..
no one would chide someone in a wheelchair, berate another who has to carry about an oxygen tank everywhere they go. Nobody would punish someone with leporacy. These are all issues not one of the victims picked out as a prize they wanted
but they got it still. Addicts are no different than any other sick soul.
Once the line is crossed over, theres no going back. No Mulligans. Do overs. Not even if your fingers are crossed. Their road will be unending for them to ever fully recover from the clutches of their illness. It will take daily measures. A whole new change and fashion of life must become their own. They will change, and be changed. Often its found to be into something far far better than they were previously. Usefully whole. Happy. Helpful. Charitable. Theyll enjoy a newfound freedom. Its no subtle thing. Indeed it is one of our modern day miracles.
those caught up in the wreckage of the addicts past may never entirely forgive them for their insurrections, misdeeds and harms.. so be it. Each of us can only change ourselfves., we are not granted the power to change another. Such alterations are an inside job.
Recidivism is a biggie for addict s, and it is for ex cons, ex smokers, and heart patients too. . So again, similarities abound amongst quite different sections of the populus..
Love is key to any addicts recovery. Love for themselves once owned and now lost. Love from their family members, friends and piers
love comes in various forms. Now and then tuff love is due them
though not hatred. Addicts can share in what is now a common solution, or a uncommon and untimely end, IF THEY ACCEPT A FEW FACTS, AND SWALLOW SOME HUGE TRUTHS ABOUT THEMSELVES.
Admitting a thing is not always like accepting that same thing.
Namely they suffer from a problem . they cant solve by themselves. Then
and only then
is there help.
Theres always hope
theres always our prayers.. and with a bit more effort and understanding, theres always our love. All of these are vital to the ones who need to recover from so terrible a medical catastrophy.
Kudos! Blindjim, Man I have a whole new respect for you as I'm a recovering alcoholic. This October will be 10 years sober for me. People can really show their true colors when it comes to an addiction discussion. Like you said one can never understand unless they live it. There isn't a day go by that I don't think about taking a drink. I know it would be disastrous. Peace my friend. One day at a time.
I know a few folks who suffer or have recovered from addiction and there are clearly two types. Those who have character and honor who face and atleast try to deal with their problems and make either a succesful recovery or honest efforts towards getting better. There are also the people that either through lifes circumstance or their own selfish nature use this problem as yet another excuse, often throwing around blame for the very addiction itself.
A friends brother was terminal with brain cancer, he had a rock star sort of life and continued to drink and smoke till the very end. He had battled with addiction to crack years ago and overcome it. Here we find out another of his "friends" who was still active in the crack mess convinced him he should party it up and he couldnt take his money with him so going on a crack bender is the way to go.
After a few days he passed on, stoned and pathetic at the end, used and abused by a predatory addict who when confronted said everyone should thank him for helping Nick with his pain at the end. This wasnt some grand deed by a true friend to ease his suffering, it was somebody who could buy him a pile of crack and a place he could safely smoke it up hidden from thw world and the police.
This is a quick true story that to go into detail would be pointless, but the point is dont ever tell me there are not 2 types of people in this world and in addiction itself. Some are void of charcter, honesty and simply for lack of a better word evil. Anyone who doesnt understand that can offer no lecture, as they simply have not seen the same things I and others have.
God Bless the helpless, and damn the hopeless, some things are unforgivable.
I can surely dig thinking there are things in this world for which there is no forgiveness. Been there and done that.
Today I know how good it is to forgive someone, too. Knowing them both, Ill choose the latter every time. Eventually.
But, it's my axe! Ill grind it if I want to in the interim!
it took me decades to forgive two people in my life. What came from those moments following my forgiveness of their actions, was in a word, ineffable.
There is one group of people who seemingly lead detestable and despicable lives and infuse copious amounts of chemicals into their bodies. They dcan stop and later restart, almost at will. While imbibing, they can be quite revolting. When they are not, they can be as saints. These are not the addicts I speak of here. They merely live life hard! Drink & drug a lot. Those folks can do turn arounds almost at will from time to time, for they do not suffer from the disease of addiction. Its hard to separate those two from each other to the untrained eye.
Addicts will be the same wet or dry.
Will rogers said once, There are only 3 different kinds of people in this world. The sort that learn from books, the kind that learn from others experiences, and then there are those who just have to pee on the electric fence from time to time.
Ever pee on an electric fence? If so you know what thats all about. If not.. youve no true idea.
Addicts keep peeing on the fence.
Nope. Its the insanity which accompanies their complicated disease.
As I said above, there are those sorts who are going to find they are simply incapable of identifying with others, in part or in whole. There are those too who as the result of their own ill concieved, or preconceptions or even prejudices, that either can not or will not separate the behavior of the sickness from the sick person. Consequently there will be a bar to better relations between them.
Red Fox used to do a comedy stand up act. Red could be quite vulgar. Once in a while someone might say something about it during his act. One way he replied in a recording of a live act was this
If you have never cussed, Ill invite you out to the parking lot to visit me at my car. Ill open the drivers side door and well place your right hand just on the door jam itself and Ill slam it shut!
Ill bet youll say words you could only imagine! You might even make some up!
It takes what it takes , for people to truly appreciate a thing
Until I walk in anothers shoes
. Lead their life
experience the depth and breadth of their minds, hearts, and emotions
. Im only able to conjecture &
and imagine. I wont ever really truly know how bad it is or how dreadful it can be to have exactly their experience. Ever.
I know literally dozens and dozens of people possibly into the hundreds, both nationally and internationally that have endured and recovered from a seemingly hopeless condition of mind and body. People from all races, ages, sexes, economic levels professions, etc. Not all of them were addicts or alkies
most however are. Some were inundated with differing medical catastrophies. Quite severe in fact. Ive been in and around people in recovery and out of it for decades. Over thirty years. Consequently Ive some knowledge on this topic
. Although Im no expert.
I keep an open mind as much as is possible with respect to any topical aside. Closing ones mind to new things is the fastest way to ignorance. I know nobody yet who for a fact knows everything, from both sides 100%.
You can watch your neighbors affect their homes and lanscapes. Youll see either its maintainence or its neglect. Youll see the changes that happen all about it that are visible.
You wont feel the anxiety that came with borrowing the money to resod the lawn. You wont feel the pain of repaying the loan. You wont feel the ache in the neighbors joints after theyve refinished and repainted the house. You wont feel the scrapes and cuts they got while laying in a new watering system. You won;t feel the distance that came between the husband and wife as each one chose different priorities and were divided by them.
?? you get only a little bit of their deal. An insignificant amount with which to truly judge someone else
for if Im unable to understand
only ignorance and inappropriate judgements can stem from being ill informed
. No matter how close to the situation they are.
Its like audio a lot
. We try repeatedly to tell another our own ideas of how something sounds
. Thats the best well ever be able to do. Some of us have a similar ear. We like the same genres, and hear similarly much of the audio content being produced and a still greater kinship is developed amongst such fellows.
But until and unless we can crawl right into another persons body, and get just what they are getting
its all assumptions and imaginations. Nothing more,
Ive hesitated to say this openly for years, but maybe itll serve to illustrate my point better.
When I was 9 years old I had to use a rifle to make my alcoholic father quit abusing my mother, and me. At gun point I made him leave
for good, and for all. In my mind this was the necessary action I had to take.
. I had tried over and over various ways to make him quit abusing us both, and stop his drinking. 3 times in as many weeks found me at a neighbors house urgently calling the authorities to come and bring some peace back into our home. They kept coming.. and going
and he kept doing what he did. The authorities were of little help. Actually they were, but not the right kind of help.
The fourth time he was abusing my mom I ignored her pleas to get the cops and instead, went to the closet and took out the only tool in the house I felt was needed. I was scared to death, but only briefly. I loaded the rifle lifted the safety and walked into the room they were in just as dear old Dad was regaining consciousness.
It wasnt my power that made him leave right then. You could say it was a much greater power. A Higher power maybe. Maybe it was God! Maybe it was the power of Mr. Winchester. Maybe it was all of them put together.. He did in fact leave. He never returned. Ever.
His issues with drink and drugs werent brought to a halt that long ago, dismal wintery night
His abuse was however.
At the request of my mother, 16 years later I did see him
in another town, under different circumstances. My hatred for him remained. My inability to understand or to forgive was in full force. I reiterated to him my last words he had heard as though they were brand new. I reproved it by showing him the SW model 29 .357 magbnum I had under my jacket. Following that instance I never saw him again. He died about 10 years later in a hospital in Ohio from the results of his sickness.
I knew he was dying. But opted not to attend his funeral, or even to visit him before he left.
All of that remorse, shame, guilt, resentment and hatred should have been stopped the moment I made him go away. It didnt though. I carried it inside of me for I was unable to forgive him. That account was settled about twenty years ago or so and long after his demise.
I finally found out we all have choices in life to live as freely as we are able to do. Forgiveness is one of the most benevolent and inspirational tools we might have that lessens the burdens of loathing and misinterpretation, we carry along from day to day. Since that time I try to move along as streamlined as I am able. Carrying as little baggage as I can. For me now, these are choices.
Everybody, everywhere, is doing the very best they can with what they have to do it with. Always.
Stopping drinking and drugging was not a choice he ever saw, I dont think. He was forced to carry on to the bitter ends and allowed his sickness to win the war that raged inside of him. That was the best he could do.
Addicts dont have the luxury of choice. They become human doings, rather than remain human beings. Theyve stripped themselves of valuable spiritual principles
. Like dignity. Discipline. Honesty. Accountability. Responsibility. Tolerance. umility. Charity. Altruism. Forgiveness. Love. And so many others. They wind up as empty shells.
If such people are not really sick, insane, incapable of making good choices for themselves
. Im entirely clueless on what it takes for a person to be thought of as sick.
Alcoholism, and drug addiction, (different words for the same condition), is not something everyone will understand or even be affected by in some way. Only the addicts will ever really and truly understand
. If they somehow gain a solid foundation on some pathway to recovery they will understand a lot more about it.
Recovered people abound. Theyre everywhere. Doing all sorts of great things. The music we listen to is filled with evidence of their own changes and in short order, some brief segments on what both sides of their roads looked like. Going into and coming out of the grips of their inability to choose? Nope. From their lack of moral fiber? Nope. Nope, not any of those singular things
from being sick
and without freedom to choose properly for themselves..
Or so I understand it from those hundreds of people I now know. In more than a few cases, I know them quite intimately.
Round trip tickets to Hell and back come with heavy dues
. The costs are a life as one knows it, and a dispensation of Grace they neither can adequately describe, or feel they deserve.
Its not what I know or dont know that puts me in harms way. No, most often it is what I know, that just aint so that troubles me regularly.
God doesn't damn anyone. Via their own choices some people choose to put themselves in their own hell. Even if they don't realize it or know how to do it they can leave at anytime. Someone who thinks they can determine who is helpless vs. who is hopeless must be a very special person existing in a special place.
Oh come off it, your spinning this into something it never was. I used damn as an expression and if me knowing a few folks are hopeless makes me special then I suggest you would have to be retarted to not draw the same conclusions if you knew who and what I am talking about.
I am not special for knowing the occasional obvious even if you attempting to mock me for it makes you feel good.
I'm raising children. They're still innocent. I must instill in them a strong sense of right and wrong and the best way is by example - both in the way I live my own life, and in the way I can point to others who have @$#&!% their lives up. Frankly, I don't care to hear about what is or isnt effective in dissuading those already in the grips of irresponsibility
or just plain old stupidity.
Perhaps this type of reporting might lend credence to the message that every parent strives to instill in their children.
Well said. Seems more and more its nobodys fault, its a disease, its a condition, its passed from birth and on down the line. Good lessons from birth, a positive family structure along with education, common sense and maybe even a little luck can go a long way to a healthy life.
We all know some thing just happen and its tragic but many need to accept some personal responsibility and blame only the man in the mirror, doing that instead of cop out blame games might be a healthy step for some to recover from a bad lifestyle.
I dont want to lose the true spirit of this thread and hope Gerry's family finds peace in this difficult time.
God Bless you Chadnliz. I was a hopeless drunk once but thanks to God and support from a lot of caring souls who did not have your attitude I made it. Now I own my own business and am living very comfortably. I hope you never have to deal with addiction on a personal level (I mean someone that you really care about). Just remember what comes around goes around.
Too bad you didnt learn how to comprehend in your recovery. I clearly stated there was 2 very different folks in addiction. Maybe understanding is the 13th step?
So blah blah blah, I am evil, your awesome, to be honest I am laughing so thanks for the smile.
Fact is I reserve sympathy and compassion for those who should get it and I offer straght no BS higher power platitudes for those who dont and until you know me dont assume I cant tell the difference between these two very different types of people.
Time to throw the MOFI City to City on the VPI for a quick cleaning and relaxing listen, the spirit of this thread is about sadness for Raffertys passing. I am going to remind everyone of that and play some great music in his honor.
God be with those who want and need help, for the other types of folks we encounter in our travels lets all hope they stay on the other side of Baker Street. :)
How do you know you're not one of the other types of folks?
Wow somebody needa a drink.
Oh I get it, you guys are those insecure last word type guys......I didnt get the memo.
I tried to steer things back on topic but didnt figure you would both need to fire one more shot across the bow.
Ok so here it is, I am sure you wont be able to stop yourselves so whats it this time?
Im sad to see Gerry Rafferty go to. I loved his music. Whether he had a character flaw or a disease it doesnt matter everybody has a character flaw. Who cares how he died. Why dont we discuss his music? Which, as I recall is the point of this website. Chadnliz is just an angry old fool. Live and let live, God Bless.
Oh now I am an angry old fool..........bummer.
Chadnliz seems to need to get the last word now!!
What a bunch of babbling bullshit. I admit, I read it and now I'm have a lot of second thoughts myself. If some people only knew ................
Gerry Rafferty was buried just under a fortnight ago in his home town of
Paisley, where I work.
He was a real talent as a musician and producer but it would seem he did not
have the personality to sustain success...although of course you can argue
what that word means.
Talking to workmates who both saw him at his peak and knew him personally
in his youth remarked that he lacked the personality or charisma to become a
Privately it seems to me the real tragedy of his life was the fact that he both
escaped the harsh upbringing of his childhood and at the same time repeated
some of the mistakes of his family's past.
One of the great things about music is that it both reflects and transcends the
life of the writer. It seems from the little that was known of Gerry Raffery that
he only truly came alive through his music and his music lives on....................