I know I'm not the brightest bulb in the lamp but what exactly does that phase shift mean in the link from George? Compared to a speaker or room interaction it's not much or is it? I don't know that I've ever seen a plot like that before.
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I know I'm not the brightest bulb in the lamp but what exactly does that phase shift mean in the link from George?
Phase shift is interpreted by the ear as a tonality depending on what is causing the phase shift- a rolloff at high frequency outside the audio band can sound like a darkness, it can also sound like a brightness if there is a peak. The ear uses phase information for echo location, so it can alter the soundstage too. The ear is entirely insensitive to phase at a single frequency, like a sine wave or the like; and there are other factors it uses to sense tonality and soundstage, so even though phase shift plays a role, its not the only way the ear works. But if you really want to get the tonality and soundstage right, this is a thing that needs attention.
While some class D amps have significant phase shift, others do not, just as in traditional amplifier technology. It is a logical fallacy called 'Guilt by Association' that is being employed here by George- he is saying *all* class D amps have this phase shift in the link he provides, when actually the curve is for a very specific amplifier. Logical fallacies are inherently false and this is an excellent example.
Thanks, I've been reading a bit on phase shift or angle, same thing ?? Still trying to digest it, from one article it appears they're saying not to worry to much about it in an amp.
In one sense, you can consider the effects of phase angle being built into the frequency response (which represents voltage sensitivity over the full bandwidth): whether the phase angle is 0 degrees or 60 degrees, the voltage demanded from the amplifier remains the same. As a result you don’t have to worry that an amplifier is going to have to swing loads of extra voltage and current in order to cover the effects of a difficult phase angle.
Thanks, I’ve been reading a bit on phase shift or angle, same thing ?? Still trying to digest it"phase shift or angle"
Two TOTALLY different things. Phase Shift can be caused by a few things, in Class-D case it’s caused the by the output filter that needs to get rid of the 600khz switching frequency noise, without that filter your speakers and ears would fry up.
This filter HAS to be low order because it needs to absorb a lot of wattage And because of it’s low order roll off trying to get rid of the switching frequency, it continues to create it’s effect in (degrees) down into the audio band as 70!! degrees of phase shift (red trace https://ibb.co/jfd6tqy) and it’s sensitive to the human ear because it in the upper/mids and highs, which too many complain about in Class-D to be just a coincidence.
All this is related to the one smart thing atmasphere said about phase shift down into the audio band, but it was on another thread and the direct opposite to what he's trying to sell you here.
The FIX= As Technics did in the SE-R1 because of the use of GaN technology, is to raise the switching frequency nearly 3 x higher to 1.5mhz, and you can then raise the filter up with it, and then the phase shift effects are also raised along with it out of the audio band. to above 20khz Simple isn’t it. This comes at a cost of having to use small heat sinks, nothing major.
Phase Angle also expressed in -degrees, common in bass measurements of speakers, it combines with the speakers impedance to create an amplifier loading measurement call EPDR (equivalent peak dissipation) resistance. It’s a long read but all explained here. 3 pages of it here, this is the 2nd page.
1) @atmasphere , this would only be true if there was a difference in phase-shift between the left and right channels:
2) @georgehifi , I am still waiting for you to explain how this 1KHz square wave for an ICE_Power module with "theoretically" large phase shift is really quite a nice square wave. If there was a large phase shift between all the harmonics that build up this square wave, then the square wave would be a mess. Hint .... the graph doesn’t show what you think it does.
If you believe this is the actual phase shift of the output of an IcePower based amplifier, can you explain this near perfect 1KHz square wave?
3) @georgehifi , EPDR only impacts devices operating in the linear region. Class-D devices switch hard on/off, hence EPDR is e meaningless term for Class D.
4) @georgehifi , at 500Khz, for dynamic speakers, a typical tweeter may be around 100-200 ohms. Given a magnetic storage element, but no LC output filter, the harmonic content at 500Khz, given the high impedance of the speaker at that frequency is not going to damage the tweeter (and that’s not even taking into account inductive properties of crossover capacitors). Other speaker technologies may have issues obviously.
5) @georgehifi , the filter does not need to "absorb a lot of wattage". The elements are reactive and not used in a manner where the energy is stored, then dissipated (like a logic gate). Losses would be due to parasitic resistances which would be kept to a minimum.
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