If you hear it, it works!
Looks similar to other flux capacitors from the competition. Perhaps not the exact science behind them.
If you hear it, it works!
Not saying these things don't work. Either of them. Any of them. Totally absolutely trust and believe you guys are hearing what you're hearing, and it is as impressive as you say. That said, the whole marketing narrative of these things is baloney. Could give you some things to check to confirm for yourselves but I will just let you try and figure it all out from this one little tip from the Nordost page:
It is compatible with voltages from 110V to 240V
You don't say. And yet it, "Works directly on the AC line, actively introducing a precise range of pulsed frequencies."
Yeah, no, I don't think so!
Talk to us in 6 months. Millercarbon, if you hear it listen again. You need to learn to smell a marketing scam. All good audio electronics have great power supplies that take care of all line aberrations. The only line device
good electronics need is a surge protector. I have a whole house surge protector. That pretty much takes care of everything.
I thought I will take a moment to provide some explanation and let you decide if you are hearing an improvement or not. The electrical power usage at your house is given by:
P = 1/2 x Vp x Ip x Cos (theta) = Vrms x Irms x Cos (theta) Watts
where Vp is the peak voltage in volts
Ip is the peak current in amperes Vrms is the voltage in volts
Irms is the root-mean square current in amperes
theta is the phase angle between the current and voltage
If theta = 0 degree, you get the maximum power with Cos (theta) = 1. If theta > 0 degree, you get something less than max power which is the situation in practice. If you have induction motors, and capacitive loads, theta is going to be >0 degrees.
If there is more inductive reactance, then one can balance that by adding capacitive reactance to the supply. I can only assume that in your house, there is such a large inductive reactance, by adding a simple capacitor to the one of the outlets, you were able to reduce the phase angle so that you get more real power instead of reactive power. This improves the overall efficiency of power delivered to your house.
There are even better solutions if you want to pursue in that direction. Please check the link below for details:https://selinc.com/mktg/130175/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwsuP5BRCoARIsAPtX_wEjRXOp_O-Rofk3TSgimqr0wc272Hp9SfNU_s...
"the whole marketing narrative of these things is baloney"yet products that gush over their liberal application of quantum materials, carbon derivatives, and nanotechnology are so much more plausible. lol
Other people are allowed to promote and be early adopters of pseudo-science tweaks too...you don't have a corner on the tweak narrative market.
Pwerahera is using technical talk to discuss a very simple concept.
its called Power Factor Correction, or PFC.
Most residences share a common transformer. The power delivered on the power lines is 3 phase. The outputs from the 3-phase transformers are divided among residents. The neighbors’ electrical motor loads from air conditioners tends to alter PF. Residents tend to pay for more power than used. PFC can be used to re-align current and voltage both at ones meter and in your residential electrical loads.
But an AUDIBLE difference??
More snake oil!
Every time I run into y'all discussing these objects of marvelous intent, my copper mesh body suit starts arcing in very personal places...
I can only handle this sort of thing for so long before having to 'ground myself' at the nearest earth ground. It's like shuffle dancing on a wool rug in some ways....
Imo ADD-Powr is not snake oil. There's nothing wrong in trying to coin a catchy marketing phrase.
It has nothing to do with quantum mechanics, nor any ooga-booga / snake oil devices.
It has everything to do with science.
Read the "about" page and then comment.
Apparently Bill, the designer of QRT, did indeed, use the word "quantum" to simply blow people's minds away in order to get attention and create a faithful following - and it worked!
Not based on rational science but based upon subjective emotion.
At the end of the day, all the products worked as claimed. But a rational explanation was not a part of the recipe, an odd and disconcerting marketing approach to say the least.
So, "proprietary technology" was employed and that became the explanation.
From perusing the web site, ADD-Powr is appears to be about increasing "energy", or the voltage of the audio signal through the generation of harmonics on the reference supply that are too low in frequency to be filtered away by the component power supply. They more or less resonate with similar frequencies in the audio signal. If the fundamental signal is low enough, then its resonant affect will be evident throughout the audio band. The driving fundamental must be a complex function composed of sines and cosines in various phases - that is the Fourier series. Or...perhaps it can be simply be a square wave!
That explanation makes sense.
What more do I want?
Well, let’s discuss this.
pwerhera used a few equations to INTRODUCE a concept. He didn’t explain it, nor explain how this product is supposed to make audible improvements.
So, let me introduce another equation:
E = mC2
Now. Go and make an atomic bomb.
I have been just as useful.
Thanks OP, I’ll check it out before I make a comment. I’m always interested in STUFF.. You had good results. You can hear..
Just remember, jealousy ALWAYS seeks unkind word...Pay NO attention to the naysayers. Thank the EAR GODS, you have some good hearing.
I love it when others CAN’T hear "IT" you know what the OP is talking about. They don’t even know what OP is talking about... Just "YOU" can’t hear it, because "I" WON’T. Mind already made up.
It's usually a person that will say "I have an EE" and I'm working as an Electrician, so I can get paid correctly for WORK. NOT saying I'm an EE.. Funny guys... I read it, it's this way.. He bought it and it IS THAT WAY... Funny guys...
BTW. PIE are round, not square. Slice of peach, pie, please. OH!, Apple will do..
Five days ago, I changed the UK three flat pin socket faceplate of my electrical socket to one that would fit the US pin configuration of a new upgraded power cable I am thinking of getting. All I changed was the faceplate with the hardware behind it to receive the existing live, neutral and earthing wires. It was a hospital grade item, since that was all that was available, and so much medical equipment is made in the United States. And then I plugged the same stock power cable back in so I could listen to my music in the few days leading up to my demo appointment. I obviously didn’t expect anything from the change, and the difference shocked me. I would use the same words as the OP to describe the change to the sound I was listening to. I will never pass off any claimed difference in sound quality due to however small a tweak ever again : ) - kevin.
Confirmation bias sells lots of products. Whether it is a gadget that fools your carburetor into releasing the hidden power in the gasoline (sold with a rambling pseudo-science lecture on ionization), or a gadget you can plug in anywhere in the house to awaken your electronics and unleash hidden goodness. The unfortunate truth is that the power supply in the electronics will convert the AC to a DC rail voltage (or voltages) before getting to work making music. If it is a good power supply, nothing will survive the filtering and your gadget will allow the placebo effect to bask you in the warmth of $300 burning while doing no actual harm. Looking at some of AddPowr's higher end products, they are willing to help you burn up to almost $4,000 on a box that simply plugs into an available outlet. Imagine the warmth created by that!
$300 is a relatively small price to pay to make a discernible, appreciable improvement in your audio system. Those of you who dismiss AddPowr products
out of hand are nervous about spending that sum because either you don't have the money or you're prone to an automatic self-righteous reaction toward anyone who claims to have invented something new. It smacks of the Inquisition. How can you make such pronouncements without first testing the product in question? I'm sure your money would be refunded by the company if you're disappointed with the results. If you have ever visited an audio show, you can come in contact with electrical engineers who were involved in military projects like the development of the AWACS system or have worked for NASA. Advancements in technology are ongoing, especially in electronics. To deny that is tantamount to burying your head in the sand. If you think interconnects from BestBuy are as good as any other, then these products are not for you.
Like everything else, only the ones who have tried it should have a say on whether it works or not. You can always try it and return it if it doesn't work for you. No need to play the scientist or the prophet. Don't let the marketing scare you. Most of the time the marketing group is totally independent of the engineering group and they don't necessarily see eye to eye. I know many designers/engineers (Gallo, Carver to name two) who have walked away because they couldn't stand the marketing tactics of the company they work with. At the end of the day, things either work for you or they don't. You just need the courage to admit it to yourself.
Why so hostile, Wolfie? We were discussing residential AC power, which varies greatly from place to place. Pwera introduced an equation which relates to that. Those who know Fourier analysis are enriched thereby - those who do not are told where to look. Again: what's the problem with that?
Oddly enough, your quotation of that equation WOULD be just as useful. If we wanted to make a fission bomb, the most important thing would be the fundamental physics that show it to be possible, and the energy-mass equivalence (up to a scaling factor) is the basis of all subsequent theory (binding energies, cross-sections, etc.).
A critical element in making a statement regarding a product, the source of which the manufacture makes a living from, necessitates owning and having a real experience with. I own several of products by this manufacture and can attest to the significant improvement they have made. The owner, developer, and designer is generous with his time and genuinely takes interest in how one experiences his products.
Agreed about confirmation bias. But this may be something more. Power supplies filter, yes - but as you know, it's a matter of degree, and the devil is in the details.
An LRC filter removes a percentage of the ripple present in a DC supply. The first LRC stage takes its DC from the rectifier, the second stage takes its DC from the first stage, etc. Bigger reactances increase that percentage, as do more stages - but have you ever calculated how much inductance and capacitance you need to reduce that ripple voltage to the intrinsic noise of your active devices?
Well I have, and it took most of a full size rack to contain the hundred pounds of transformers, the hundred kg of inductors, and the Farad of capacitors to provide 2 KW of good DC.
The result? My system is BLACK. Worth it? YMMV
Nice to see a few sane people here. All is not lost.
Terry9, do you see ghosts in your closet? If your unit has a bad power supply ditch it and spend your money on something built well.
I have my very own Lawn wart. The Power company made me buy it because of my workshop. They thought I would dim everyone's lights.
The ultimate power conditioning. Four 3 grand I get to brag:)
only the ones who have tried it should have a say on whether it works or not
I really don't get this argument...
So to to take a completely imaginary scenario: Someone has a product and is unable to provide any evidence that it works, they can make any claim they want about how great it is and put a big price tag on it. If they were really cynical they could create an account on this forum and pretend to be a customer that's 'seen the light'. And then everyone else gets told to buy one before they can have an opinion on whether it stands a chance of working... like I said, a completely imaginary scenario.
Generally, audio power supplies do not filter noise under 40 kHz, no?
You can put all the LRCs you want on a DC power supply and as many farads as you want. I will say that you will not find many supplies filtering under 20 Hz.
Sure, make the AC as quiet as you can.
That will make the ElectraClear work even better.
Why not play with the medium of AC single phase 90 - 240 VAC and explore what how it can be exploited to do more.,,?
Why not explore what is possible using basic ideas of physics?
The medium is the message.
Mijo, do I see ghosts in my closet? Not any more.
My ’unit’ does not have a bad power supply - at least by my standards. The DIY power supply for my DIY amps has ripple which is lower than the noise floor of my test instruments, and calculates to be comparable to the intrinsic noise of a MAT12. Your standards are perhaps higher?
It’s the only argument one has when there is nothing concrete to substantiate a claim. Why people choose to spend money on things that apparently work by magic rather than for some good reason is beyond me. It’s a personal matter mostly. People spend money on all kinds of things, some crazy, some not.
My theory is obsessive personalities cannot stop themselves from pursuing their obsession. Figuring out what can be done to make things sound better is not easy. But at some point it becomes grasping at straws if not reeled in.
Bemused, I think that you will find that it's a matter of degree. The equations for filters are well known, see for example a Radio Amateur's Handbook from the 50's. You will note that EVERY LRC filter filters EVERY frequency - the question is, how much.
Sure you can use a single phase motor to drive a three-phase motor backwards to get three phase, making filtering easier - but you choose your poison. I chose brute force LRC with single phase. YMMV
There is no "bad" anything.
The ADD-Powr idea is not about filtering noise.
It adds signal, and does not filter nor address noise.
Do you remember the term signal-to-noise ratio, or S/N?
If you increase S what happens to the ratio?
My math says the ratio gets larger.
Go get yourself a dB sound level meter.
Play pink noise or white noise into your system.
Send it as mono or stereo feed.
Take said meter locate and position and point it at:
1 - 2 feet from each speaker
Repeat from 5 feet.
Repeat from the sweet spot between speakers
Record the measurements.
Plug in an ElectraClear or any ADD-Powr product, and repeat the above.
End of story.
Geez, where were you guys on the thread about improvements from AC power cords?
Current harmonics occur on power lines due to non-linear loads, of which there are many. Do they affect the sound coming out of your system? I read through ADD-Powr's website. They claim,
"A complex wave "disturbance" rides along the AC line. Since it is a low frequency signal, it is not filtered away by power supplies, such as a/v component power supplies. Instead, it passes through the filter stages and becomes part of the DC reference supply voltage."
What low frequency signal are they talking about? They don't say. This claim seems bogus to me, if for no other reason than they don't publish any actual data. I couldn't find any product specs. And, if it were a real thing, it would be easy to demonstrate. Specifically:
1. Show me a frequency graph of incoming A/C power (both the 60Hz and whatever harmonics you want to include) and the corresponding frequency graph of amplifier output.
2. Now introduce the "device" and show me the same graphs. This kind of before and after will show both the frequency domain and the scale of the impact of the high pass filter.
Nada. Nothing. A picture says a thousand words, but only if there's something to show.
One other thing ADD-Powr says in describing their technology:
Why exactly would you want to increase voltage peaks? Stable voltage is extremely desirable, peaky voltage not so. The vast majority of PQ problems are voltage related, either a sag or a surge, and those can mess mightily with electronics. Also, how does super saturation with harmonics increase voltage? Harmonics are undesirable. Now, if you are doing PF correction, that will slightly lower voltage by lowering current flow, but they also specifically say, "
ADD-Powr products are
Electronic harmonic resonators.
They are not AC power line conditioners".
Honestly, the more I read this on this site the more it screams Snake Oil.
Your scenario doesn’t account for the fact that the distributors always have a money back guarantee and always give sufficient time to evaluate a product and return it if not satisfied. If we had to be persuaded of the theory before we buy a product, none of us would own a high definition TV model because we sure don’t know how it works. Most airplanes would be empty if the airline had to explain to all the passengers how it works. We try things, if they work we keep them, if they don’t, we return them. If there is a life or death probability, we let someone else try it first 😀
These marketing stories are just that, stories. Which is not to say there aren't improvements from using this stuff. Very likely there are. Its just to say the improvements are not for the reasons we're being told.
In fact the one thing I am most certain of is that they are NOT for the reasons we're being told.
Why am I so certain? Because a thin coat of Total Contact on the outside of a wire, AC or signal, makes no difference, makes all the same great improvements people are talking about, and for certain it is not generating or saturating anything, and absolutely is not doing anything active. All its doing is somehow improving transmission. Somehow. We don't know.
People hate not knowing. Lotta people rather believe utter nonsense than admit WE DON'T KNOW! Oh, the horror!
Me, I kind of welcome the not knowing. Because the minute you can convince yourself you know why, then you stop thinking about what if? Look around. Look how often it happens. Look at all the people trying to buy cables, and all kinds of stuff, based on what are nothing more than cockamamie stories. Only they won't call them that. Oh no. That's a big part of the delusion, to call your cockamamie stories theories, principles, facts, measurements, anything but what they are: narrative. Fanciful tales. Fables. Myths. Stories.
The people screaming snake oil are no better. They know even less. At least the people who pretend to know why might actually bother to try the stuff and listen and use it and maybe learn a thing or two some day. The snake oil people, what they are really saying is their mind is made up, you're all suckers, and no way they will ever even try to listen and learn. They're the lowest of the low. They truly need a new hobby.
Of course, none of this really matters - unless you really are interested in building an exceptionally fine sounding system. Because then if you are serious about it you will go and listen and keep trying and learning, and maybe even one day realize that just like mahgister keeps saying the tweaks matter at least as much as the components.
Go and listen. You will see.
@bemused-- You wrote:
"From perusing the web site, ADD-Powr is appears to be about increasing "energy", or the voltage of the audio signal through the generation of harmonics on the reference supply that are too low in frequency to be filtered away by the component power supply. They more or less resonate with similar frequencies in the audio signal. If the fundamental signal is low enough, then its resonant affect will be evident throughout the audio band. The driving fundamental must be a complex function composed of sines and cosines in various phases - that is the Fourier series. Or...perhaps it can be simply be a square wave!
That explanation makes sense."
It does not make sense to me. Can you explain it? What frequency levels are we talking about, exactly? Power comes in at 60Hz. What low level AC frequency will resonate through a DC power supply?
Please refrain from obscene generalizations about people. When I say something seems like snake oil I am most certainly NOT saying that my mind is made up, that everyone else are suckers, and that I am not going to listen and learn.
What I AM saying is that when there is no rational basis to accept a manufacturer's claim as to how something works, and they provide not a shred of what should be easy-to-provide corroborating measurements to demonstrate effectiveness, it makes me highly skeptical. There are a thousand tweaks out there and my time is limited, especially I am going to spend it listening to things that have a reasonable chance of making a difference. Especially regarding improvements from AC side tweaks, which have nothing at all to do with the musical signal. Unless your power quality is terrible, AC side stuff just isn't going to make a difference. Running your system off a quality UPS will give you perfect sine wave power, stable voltage, and no harmonics. Problem solved.
For goodness sake, would you not be skeptical of, say, an amplifier designer who says their amp sounds better because it's inhabited by quantum level musical pixies?
Hey, if someone else hears a difference, more power to them, though, with the ever present caveat of awareness of confirmation bias. If you don't do double blind testing, how do you know you actually heard it? By all means, go by what you hear - I certainly do - but don't you want to be certain that you really heard it?
I was told that the pro audio world folks are the only group interested in such data. There is virtually no business there, and it is very difficult to break into and be profitable.
That low frequency signal is below 100 Hz I presume.
I think that they have some tests that were done by a tech at Harmon that there is spectrum graph looking at frequency versus noise floor of an amp. There were some interesting results, I'm told.
It has nothing to do with PF correction.
The approach you describe is not the approach here.
You are talking about phases of the AC line. That is not what ADD-Powr is doing.
Also, It's nothing to do with the peaks necessarily, but rather inducing an actual periodic pattern of very low voltage oscillating "bumps" on the line. It is kind of similar to how an old LED digital clock (very low frequency square wave perhaps) might affect the AC line.
Again, this is not about addressing power line issues per se.
It is an approach using a specific low frequency waveform signal type and resonating vis-a-vis its harmonic series, other signals whether the means is through the power supply or by a coil antennae. The essence is getting a harmonic series to resonate with like frequencies,
Well, this thread took the expected turn...
I'm more curious about thElectraclear than a magic fuse-they're about the same price.I don't see a money back guarantee. Did I overlook this on the website?
MY spidey senses are working, so I may have already killed any possible improvement. I use Power Plant with good results. If an electraclear enhances it, I will have super perfect power.
"Honestly, the more I read this on this site the more it screams Snake Oil."
That only shows where you need to think more about the phenomenon because you have not examined it from other ways.
And you have not heard any of the ADD-Powr products.
You don't have any idea what you're talking about because the S/N doesn't lie and your ears don't lie either.
Just contact and ask the several pro audio engineers using the products.
You're entitled to your opinion and you may think and believe what you wish. These are not fantasy stories and there are many things you and I don't know.
The ideas of resonance, harmonic series, and ideas of physics / electrical theory are worthy of scrutiny.
I sense that they are worthy endeavors to push the envelope of what is possible to achieve quality audio sound that allows you to derive more pleasure from recorded music.