Double Blind Testing.
fuses should be EASILY done, compared to ICs power cords or other tweaks. |
I repeat::
Double blind testing.
somebody does / does not make a change.
Can you tell?
Repeat until a statistically valid sample is gathered.
Repeat AGAIN with several different people.
On a simple, yes-no change, 50% is guessing.
Everything else is just anecdotal.
period.
AND, for the record, I won't say these changes, even the fuses dont' matter, but PROVE it with statistics. |
If its all about feelings, head on and enjoy.
But, on the face of it a 39$ fuse? come'on, somebody is joking here.
Can you hear it? Who knows? Somebody who installs such a fuse than says they hear a change may just be fooling themselves. My car runs much better after being washed. And to change the DIRECTION of the fuse in the holder and expect to hear it? Nutty.
I would agree that specs are near-meaningless. I personally am very selective in my use or quoting of specs and than I use them as an 'advisory', not the law.
I would also disagree about it being about what other people hear. It is about what YOU hear.
I guess (know, really) that DBT is a real hi-end Hot Button issue. Nobody likes having there sacred cow gored. If someone hears a change made by new/changed (fill in blank) than more power to 'em. I personally won't try anything based on what a basically random selection of people say...as well intended as most are.
If 'subjectivity and anecdotal is the rule', how could you complain about the Bose lover? Straighten him out? NoCanDo, since he 'feels' this is the best.
And, as a final thought, it is difficult to PROVE anything with statistics. Most people don't understand this. If you set up such a test with a dozen 'golden eared' persons in an agreed upon reference system (I know.....million to 1 shot) and got a null result you could count on it. BUT, if even 1 of the listeners showed a statistically significant ability to distinguish that which was under test, than all bets are off. This guy DID hear something, even if it can't be measured.
In the early days of CD players, when the 1st '1-bit' stuff was coming out, there was a 3-way DBT. One of the listeners was spot on in his choices and way above chance. Of the remainder, another could tell one of the players out of the crowd, but couldn't distinguish the others reliably.
There is a place for DBT in hi-end.
What gives tweaks a bad name? I don't know...maybe it is the guy that plays the tones over the phone! or the rocks. or the cryo'd RCA connectors. |
Don't hold back, Musicnoise!
One bit of science you missed is the idea of repeatability.
When I add 2 plus 2, I get the same answer as anyone on the planet.
When you take a match to a balloon full of hydrogen and oxygen, in the proper ratio.....BOOM, you get a little puff of water vapor....every time.
There are various ramifications of all this tweak stuff.
That there is no concensus about anything...even as simple as a fuse, for Pete's sake, is a sign to me of extreme subjectivity and Weird science.
I am building a Faraday Cage around my house, even as we speak. I'll have 10ft Copper Ground rods driven by the end of the weekend and borrow a 'megger' from work to test the resistivity of ground. I'm sure this will remove the last bit of remaining haze from the upper octave. |
I have one of each...Norah and Grace. (nightclubbing, one cut of which made it to a Harrison Ford movie)...name it for 10 bonus points.
I suggest we drop this line. People have many ingrained prejudi. I don't understand the strawman reference of a few posts back. Am I supposed to be ashamed that I try to bring a little logic and reason to this discussion? Somebody tell me WHY audiophiles are afraid of DBTing?
By the way......Fuses are SUPPOSED to have a little piece of wire in them...that's how they work. As for a vibrating wire! Why would it vibrate and what effect would it have on anything? Microphony in Tubes is a known phenom and based on the vibration modulating the signal, at audio frequencies. But a single wire? what does it modulate? Somebody give me a reasonable expanation.
An empty head is not really empty; it is stuffed with rubbish. Hence the difficulty of forcing anything in to an empty head. ERIC HOFFER QUOTE:: |
Running off to work, BUT...
I agree, at first glance with Audiofeil.
I hear what I want to hear, just like my car runs better after a washjob or an oil change.
How else could the 'rocks' get positive reviews? These discussions verge on religion, a place where I won't go.
As for DBT usefulness for drug tests. Yep, but so much more. This technique is widely used.
You COULD get such a test together for Hi-end, but the loops you need to go thru make it a Practical near-impossiblilty.
Stuff like, 1. who gets the good seat? 2. What is the reference system....couldn't get 3 people to agree on THAT.
3. Who has time to organize such a test? 4. Where are you going to do it? 5. Who will do the Experimental Design?
6. Who will crunch the numbers?
So, while audiophiles have huge emotional reaction to DBT, they really have little to worry about. The chances of actually getting such a test off the ground is ZERO.
On the other hand, Cables and I/Cs to make a difference. I have heard it myself. Usually not for the better, once you have found your comfort zone.
Have fun with it. It's not the end of the world....or IS it?
|
Pubul57 has it pretty much down to basics.
For any 2-way test, the basic chances of a choice being right is 50:50. There is some more match to it, like levels of significance, but that is the basic idea. |
Sorry, musicnoise, you have entered a NO SCIENCE zone.
Opinions and feelings are all that count.
BUT, in defense of the no-science crowd, MANY of them HAVE driven Hi-End by stuff they could hear and nobody else could. Engineers and Technicians have spent years catching up to good eared persons and it is NOT clear that they HAVE indeed caught up. The Best designers /executers do have good ears and distinct taste in voicing equipment.
So, that being said, what would the real purpose of DBT be in Hi-end?
That some cables sound Different is pretty established. That they are the be-all / end-all of a system in need of a little help is totally up-for-grabs.
I would like to know a few things::
1. Can people REALLY hear fuses? I don't see how this is possible, but who knows? That I claim my car runs better after being washed is, of course, nutty. Or is it?
2. Is there ANY consensus in a reference system, for those who CAN hear such a difference as to which fuse is 'better'?
3. Can anyone justify 39$ for a fuse? I mean REALLY, even if said fuse cost 10x a std 'littlefuse' to make, that would still make it only a couple bucks retail. I can't help it, when I see something so vastly overpriced, my 'scam' alarm starts ringing. I am perfectly willing to pay small companies a premium and would never begrudge anyone fair profit, but let's get real. |
That may be worth a try....Bridge a fuse with a nice piece of 12ga or 10ga copper......
In the old days, many a house fire was started by a lunatic who stuck a coin in the fuse box. The REAL problem was somewhere else.
One last note....In Real Scientific Studies, the DBT kind that nobody here seems to subscribe to, a small %age of those receiving the Placebo (Sugar pill) ALSO get relief.
I would respectfully suggest that the next time you go to swap in a 39$ fuse, (I still can't get over that price...I work for a living, after all) get a friend to (OR NOT) actually put in the fuse. Be honest now! How many were fooled into thinking it sounded better?
No matter what, have fun. This is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby, for Pete's sake! |
Yes, There ARE real reasons for most cables to sound....different. Measureables such as capacitance and resistance are associated with either HF rolloff or loss of bass control...IE, reduced damping factor.
I use all Beldon / fabricated by Bluejeans Cable. They feature good prices, build quality and prompt delivery.
Just for example, when I read the 'science' behind some of the AudioQuest product, I want to laugh.
Thanks, Audiofeil for issuing the Good Captain a minor correction.
Now, if someone could come up with a plausible, even pseudo-scientific reason for a fuse to sound 'better', I'd be willing to listen and research. |
Why surprised that price/performance are not related?
A current 25000$ Honda Accord handily outdoes the same price car from the dawn of Acura...the 25000$ Legend.
More features, safer, as quick or quicker, better economy.
The works. And that is before I count 22 years of inflation!
That's a deal!
I have a 10 Euro note on my shelf.....I can dream, can't I?
It cost about 8$ and is now worth about 15$.
I wish I had invested BigTime. |
How can a fuse influence noise / ripple ?? |
Pubul57, I DO think that 39$ is germain to this discussion.
That hi-end is hi-priced is NO joke. I've got a fortune in this stuff. When a 3500$ integrated is shipped, and the company says....(not direct quote) that the piece would be better with a different power cord.... That personally strikes me as kind of scruffy. I lack for the correct word.
Fuses, even 'cost no object' are impossible to price at 39$ with nothing but anecdotal evidence. Many people still think that Mercedes is the be all / end all of the automotive world but statistics...IE, real data, simply do not support that contention. Many other cars have a lower failure/defect rate, but lack the Cachet of the MB label.
My boss at work is fond of saying, and has a poster on his wall.....'Show Me The Data'. I have 30+ years experience in my technical field, and am considered a resource / expert, having trained many degreed engineers and other technicians.
BUT, I still must produce at least a modicum of evidence to support some of the nuttier things I come up with. After further testing and qualification (NOT DBT) some ideas are validated, some arent'.
Just like Mac used to do with the speaker wire tester, showing that the only speaker wire people could reliable tell from others was a 50ft length of 16ga or 18ga.
The boutique speaker wire guys pretty much put an end to that line.
Maybe one day, I'll sit down with a couple fingers of Chivas and have somebody change some fuses for me....or not!
I'll try to tell if the new unit is installed...or not.
I'll even get a couple buddies over for the listening. I'm not going to hold my breath. I may just change my 4A maggie fuses to the ceramics.
Like Chicken Soup......'Couldn't hurt'............... |
Agreed that a fuse 'should never fail to fail'.
I wonder what the truth of certification (UL, SA, etc) is?
A REACH: I suspect it costs a Bundle to get a certification.
YOU, the manufacturer pay for the tests and must supply all the samples. In the automotive world, that is how it is for motor oil. There is some non-certified oil out there which is also very good. A few types of Amsoil used to be like this.
Now, manufacturing can also be certified. The company I work for, in semicondutor processing, undergoes periodic Independent Audits. We are also ISO certified. If the HiFi-Tuning fuse folk are so certified, I would not hesitate to purchase there stuff....Of course, I still think that 39$ for a fuse of only anecdotal help is ridiculous. But, if they have undergone independent audits OR are ISO certified, than I believe the fuse would indeed act like a fuse.
It would than be up to the Lawyers to decide....in the event of some kind of failure causing damage to life or property.
As for being 'manufactured under some sort of oversight by an independenty agency' ?? I hope you Do Not mean Government? If those guys made cookies, we'd all be dead. |
Very true about ISO.....and good catch!
ISO basically says that you 'say what you do' and 'do what you say'....In other words, you follow your own internal specifications and documents.
They could care less if it actually works! |
Couple 'o thoughts.
I would suspect you are right: get the certs of the market you intend.
Small companies, even those making, say, 10,000%, probably can not afford such certs.
If, BIG IF, HiFi-Tuning is small, like 3 or 4 employees who would usually all be relatives and owned by 1 guy, than I would expect no certs, now or in the near future. This, in and of itself is meaningless. When's the last time somebody Sued UL for a product fault?
I don't know how to do the numbers here, but if HiFi-Tuning could make more fuses and drop the price, his profit could actually increase. Of course, the market for 20$ fuses is probably not double that for 39$ fuses, so he may lose and end up with a garage full of un-sellable fuses.
Many other approaches, too. Like getting a couple OEM contracts......make fuses for BigTime players. Of course they'd hammer him to death for a low price, but his name would be out there in wider distribution.
Happy Listening..... |
Did you have someone change the fuses....or not, when you went in the other room to refill your wine glass? |
This is great.
First, I don't care which is better, the cheapo or the Hi-Digit fuse. 39$ is quite a pop.
I would, however, like to see where people can just tell the difference when they don't know what is installed. That's all. Just tell the difference. We can argue about weird science and which setup is better, later.
I don't know....do fuses go to the Hot side or Neutral side?
All the fuse-folks are saying 'of course I can tell...what a Maroon.' But CAN you?
For all those who feel compelled to take a meter to there systems innerds, PLEASE unplug first and let it sit for a while for the caps to discharge. I don't want to read about this in the paper.
Dave_b.....more power to 'ya. Enjoy. |
This puts the naysayers (me, perhaps) in a bad spot. If someone can really tell, say 90% of the time when the hi-fi tuning fuse is installed, than some of the brain trust has to figure out WHY.
Those who try this, please keep track of '
1. number of trials
2. who did the change
3. Results
4. What fuse / used where / what equipment.
That should 'bout do it for now. |
One additional point, than I'll let this one die a natural death.
The point being that, for most people, the listening area is the last thing modified. Place the speakers, and even spend a couple hours dialing them in. Sub, likewise, but maybe worse, depending on room. Squeeze the furniture in and make room for some wife stuff......depending on how treaty negotiations went!
Now, I know there is a lot of surplus money out there. Our discussion of 39$ (Gasp!) fuses would never come up, if for the price of 3 fuses, you purchased enough OC703 to make a half dozen 2'x4'x4" panels and have a good go at treating your room. I suspect I could improve the imaging of my Maggies thru one of these panels on the wall, in between 'em. Another would go on the 'back' wall which has a bad reflection and since my room is Really odd, vault roof, very asymetrical, I'd experiment with more panels in 'first reflection' points.
I am certain that I could make differences that anyone could hear, maybe spend more than those fuses, and end up with a room / stereo SYSTEM.
|
Treating the room should be on the short list.
And, Bass traps aren't that difficult....Corner traps and cylinders are fairly easy.
I just suggest that the right order of operations is room first, than 'icing', if you can even demonstrate differences in fuses!
I don't mean to be harsh, but saying it don't make it so.
Every double blind drug study features a small %age of people getting well on sugar pills or sugar water.
Any room treatment I have done has been obvious and easily heard. Even the spouse, who couldn't care less, makes note of the big changes. She wouldn't say it if she didnt' notice, either. She is pretty honest about these things.
Have fun with hundreds of $'s in fuses, but I think the money could be better spent on the room, 1st. |
Good, A properly treated room should be done 1st.
If you have a properly treated room, than on to the next project. My personal space, in a small house, has 8 walls, 2 at 45's, and an asymetric vault ceiling. Either an amazing opportunity or a nightmare. About the only major positive is that I don't have any real bass 'hot spots'. When I first put a system in this room I had an echo from the far, short wall.
Since I was in debt up to my nostrils, my treatment of choice was a small woolen tapestry hung about 2" from the wall. That helped imaging etc etc no end.
My next project, nearly 2 decades later is the purchase of some OC703 to treat 1st reflection points (1 wall at 45 is about 11' tall, maybe 12' from RH speaker....)and between the speakers. A local hi-end store demo'd w/ and w/o such treatment and it is clear Maggies benefit enormously from this...the backwave from them makes for some unique problems.
My point in dragging DBT back into this is that the PLACEBO effect is alive and well and living in everyone. Does my car feel better after an oil change / wash job? Yep! Is anything really different? Nope
All you gotta do is leave the room while a trusted friend does or doesn't change the fuses.....Do this 10 times over a period of 5 or so weeks and see if you can tell more than a chance 50:50 A score of 90 is definitive and warrants a good crow eating. 60% is still within chance. For validity, you really need more like 20 trials, but for the sake of arguement, 10'l do.
I'll also check out the system pics.....Without even looking I KNOW there are a bunch of good room treatment ideas, stuff I never saw or thought of. Maybe some of them will increase the WAF, 'cause I see problems with room treatments!
I'll also admit to some jealousy, in advance. I simply don't have the space or money to make a dedicated HT / or listening area. Everyone that simply isn't near-filthy rich has to compromise. I know most everyone here has done so. |
Wow! 14 large for amps is beyond my entire investment, at new/retail. Even counting my non-audio stuff like TV and DVD player (OPPO '981).
As far as I can tell, given that I have a non-optimum room, I could spend 3x on equipment/gear and not get much or any better sound.
Now, If I spent some loot improving the listening space, I'm sure that there is probably a better equipment set.
Everyones value/cost curve is different. But for now, I think I will get more out of a better space for say....300$, counting a couple boxes of OC703, some wood / coverings and mounting hardware than I could out of half that in fuses....
2 for the amp / another 2 for the speakers.
At that point I may be willing to go nuts and ship off for some standard ceramic fuses. If they make ANY difference I'll be surprised enough to ask for some fuses for Christmas!
Now, I dont' believe I mischaracterized anyones statements.
That there are believers and skeptics is a given. In my last post I used DBT as an example of how the Placebo effect plays into peoples wishes / wants / desires. I, better than most realize the difficulties (practical impossibility in Hi-Fi) of organizing such a test. Being on the skeptic side makes me the nut! If anyone would perform some due diligence and just have some healthy skepticism....
I will remain open to the tuning fuse.....But would wish for someone to be able to reliably tell the difference...fuse in or out, with some degree of confidence. This is the 2nd or 3rd time I've made such a request. No Takers? If I had these fuses, you can be sure that I'd try it. |
I don't know what else to say....I have stipulated that a DBT in Hi-End is difficult if not impossible.....For many practical reasons. It is an example of methodology ONLY. For example, the 'D' in DBT means Double....the person doing the setup as well as the listener (victim) should have no idea what is being or not being swapped....very difficult when changing a power cord as big as your arm from the 'stock' bit of lamp cord! So 'D' appears OUT.
The real proof of the pudding, is when you can identify changes with a degree of certainty. If, in your own home, you have someone swap / not swap fuses and can not relieably tell the difference, than it makes no difference. period. Just so long as you don't know if the item under test has or hasn't actually been changed.
Certainly NOT beyond proof of difference. That one fuse is Better....well, that certainly is up to you. But for me to go that route I'll need some indicaton that it works.
As for now, instead of 4x40$=160, I'll spend the same on a couple boxes of OC703=about 140$ and a 30 or 40$ trip to the hardware store. I don't think I should worry about fuses until my listening area is up to snuff. |
My roomie and I had some OBNOXIOUS neighbors in college.
We doctored an 8 track down to about a 1 minute repeating loop, put on Charlie Pride at full volume and went to lunch. those were the days of tape splicers and head demagnatizers
Game / Set / Match |
|
Let's hope it doesn't come to that! |
I can't use Magnetic Fuses 'cause of the Steel Plate in my head. I hear a whistling sound. |
If a fuse element (wire) is 1 inch long, an electron is in that said element for about 8.5e-11 seconds. I simply can not see how that could effect an electron enough to be audible.
Also, If fuse elements DID vibrate you would see more failure of these wires, due to metal fatigue.
Now, a Faraday Cage? Where? Around your house? Around your amps or low level equipment? Bad stuff in whatever form will still sneak in on your power lines. Maybe a huge isolation transformer for your house? |
Tbg, Please be more specific: What part of my 'theory' doesn't conform to reality? I don't recall presenting a theory.
Please keep in mind that I was NOT advocating a Faraday Cage for home use and indeed am completely aware of there limits and implementation....If I was in RF research (am not) or in Semiconductor processing (I am) I would have use for one.
For a 'vibrating' fuse wire to effect anything is beyond ludicris (sp?) since the microphony effect everyone is fond of quoting has to do with the emission and reception of electrons in a vacuum tube and the modulation of said emission by the vibration. No such emission and reception exist in a fuse so therefore NO modulation. The time I quoted for an electron being in the fuse wire is based on 1.25" and the speed of light, rounded down. Do the math, please.
Now, can someone Please help me with the magnet thing? I can't for the life of me figure this one out. |
