Fidelity Research FR-64 vs. FR-54
Dear chakster, Some try to explain the ''magnetic failure'' by weakening of the magnets. In particular the lack of the VTF precision. However Raul recommends the usual VTF adjustment with counter weights. As a ''bonus'' this way the weight(s) get nearer to the pivot. For the anti-skate this ''magnets weakening'' does not matter because one is assumed to do without or to adjust by ear. But I am not sure if and how dynamic balance works. |
Dear Raul, Apparently, you would benefit from looking up the English definition of the word "respect". After that, try looking up "regards". You may be surprised to learn that you display neither quality. After that, please re-read any of my previous posts, because it seems to me that you don't read them with any sort of comprehension. In particular, please re-read my post of 01/27/17, posted at 4:03 PM. Or, try this, from 01/25/17: "Raul, For the Nth time, I am only saying that MY FR64S sounds very good in my second system, which is very low in distortion and includes mostly solid state components in the chain from cartridge to speakers. Not that I agree in any way with your other diatribes, against vacuum tubes. But let's stick to the FR64S: My saying that I like my FR64S in this particular set-up does not mean that I think you are categorically "wrong" in your critique. Got that? I do recognize the theoretical importance of "damping". Until I put the stylus in the groove for the first time, I had no idea whether I would like or dislike the FR64S. I only knew that if I disliked it, I would have no problem re-selling it. But... I like it. There are many cases in this hobby where components go against this or that widely held belief and nevertheless work well, and it is not always the case that they are perceived to work well only because they produce euphonic distortion. I understand that you hate the FR64S/66S. You are entitled to your feelings. Peace. Out." Do you really think your system has lower distortion than a pair of Beveridge 2SW speakers directly driven by tweaked Beveridge amplifiers? I don't. |
Hi Ibelchev, Sorry I overlooked your post. I asked Yip to make my Mint tractor according to Bearwald with 246 mm eff. lenght. If I remember well Dertonarm also adjusted his FR-64 s with the same distance as recommended in the mentioned Magazine. I am not familiar with Feickert Protractor so I can't comment on this one. |
Dear @lewm : Of course I read and understand what you posted but let me tell you something: first that as Soundlabs ES speakers I ike Beveridge too but this does not means are " perfect " and not only because the ES technology but because the electronics need it to drive it. In the other side you said that mostly the signal pass trhough SS electronics and this means: that’s is not full SS but exist at least one tube where signal pass trhough and not all SS electronics designs has the same quality level. Now, you as @thekong and several audiophiles leaves in the 30´s using in 2017 that " pre-historyc " tube technology that not only on bass range but all over the audio/music frequency range makes a way higher degradation to any signal than today dedicated SS elctronic devices. That you and other audiophiles are accustomed to that pre-historyc degraded sound means only that: that all of you are accustomed to a way wrong sound reproduction thank’s to the corrupted AHEE. Tubes exist because is a market business where the market is not looking for real sound/music quality but colored reproduction and you have no culprit about but your corrupted " teachers ". Tube manufacturers can’t refuse to make business only because the tube electronics can’t works in better way: $$$ is $$$ and no one cares from where. Tube technology is one of the main reasons why the high-end just does not grow-up. We all need a NEW AHEE to start a totally new MUSIC enjoying. In the other side and even if you don’t use any single tube in the system the only way to have an accurate low system/room low distorion quality level is where you have a near " perfect " system/room bass management. How can you know that bass management quality level?, only if you already experienced in other system/room but yours. You can’t compare nothing if you have not a reference a true reference to compare it. I read somewuere that you have passive external subs driven by Threshold amp, I think a transmision line design type. Well, I can tell you that it can achive that near " perfect " bass managemnt quality level. I know that Mr. Beveridge loves transmision line design type, so what?. Any sub desgn type must ve an active design where the SS amplifier can copes exactly the subs driver specific characteristics and your subs are out of this subs main target. We have to remember two things that are: audio home/system reproduction MUSIC belongs not to the mid-range but to the bass range and the other issue is that MUSIC is HARMONICS develop by the fundamentals. Because of all that an many other issues I know that you can aware of the kind of distortions I’m and as I said: is not your culprit. You just can’t do it. Gentlemans, everything in the human beeen and in the Universe is a constant " times " of changes, almost every second, and we audiophiles decided not to change for the better: to discover the audio/MUSIC world that EXIST and that today AHEE deny to us. No, you main system can’t help you neither. I know that no one likes that other people " touchs " each one audio system and when I did it and doing is only trying to help. Audiophiles are accustom to lkes only what we want to hear when some one talks about one of our system’s link and dislike anything against it. But I don’t post or participate to say what peple wnats to hear but what are my experiences and the why’s about and this self characteristic in my attitude is what made it that I was banned from several net forums elsewhere but here and VE. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not Distortions, R. |
Well, our distortion man Raul will not benefit from anything. He loves to repeat his distortion "facts" like a broken record. You know the movie Groundhog Day? The only difference is, Bill Murray finds the way out of the time loop, Raul not. He loves to wake up in the morning with the same song again and again.... "I got you, Babe" |
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Dear @lewm : Maybe you can understand why your system as almost all audiophile’s systems are so far away to reproduce what’s in the recording please read this, it’s only what is part of my audio system that obviously is not nearest to " perfection " ( nothing is there. ) but through the time " each day " comes close to reproduce what is in the analog/digital recordings adding the lower degradation my ignorance levels permit it. All these permit me to be aware of multiple kind of souce’s audio signal degradations that I have perfectly identified ( several of them I " discovery " by accident and not because I was looking for. I found out because my mistakes during everywhere system up-dates. ): - my TTs ( BD and DD ) are nothing realy special, makes what is supposed to do it. What’s special is the propietary design/build TT mat and clamp. - A very special propietary design/build tonearm with the lowest self added signal degradations of any kind. Wired with silver, All my system is wired with silver, including the electrical power cables. - After the tonearm and along the speakers/room the must important audio link in the system chain is the PhonoLinePreamp. Here our self design, Essential 3160 use bipolar transistors in two gain stages for MC phono stage and FETs for MM phono stage. In reality this phonolinepreamp have five preamps instead of only one: it has a dual mono MC phono stage, it has a dual mono MM phono stage and a line level stage preamp. All these stages are totally independent from each other. This phonolinepreamp design is a discrete Non-feedback, direct coupled, current drive, pure class A , true balanced ( differential ) input to output, dual mono design, fully regulated input to output and with dual mono external power supply. Inside parts: teflon capacitors, " naked " resistors,matched active devices , no internal wires ( every part is soldered directly to the four layers circuit boards. ), etc....., only the best neutral non-sound parts ( no step-up transformers, no head amps, etc.. ) and in the critical stages with tolerances at 0.005%. A developed proprietary technique guarantee an accurate RIAA de-emphasis. This technique assures an initial RIAA accuracy of +/- 0.015 dB from 20 Hz to 20 kHz ( Both channels ), resulting in a neutral phono stage that reproduces exactly what the cartridge generates that are in the recording. My unit measures so " perfect " that in the measured RIAA chart showing both channels we just can’t see no single frequency deviation from 10hz to 50khz and we can’t distinguish the line from left to rigth channel responses !!!!!!!! I posted in this forum and if I remember you posted in that thread something about. To round off the preamplifier’s RIAA capabilities, its has a switchable 3.18 us turnover point to compensate for the cutting head preemphasis roll-off during the recording. Other specs: Frequency range to: 0.01 Hz to 1,5 MHz. ( both channels. ) Signal to noise ratio: better than 82 dbA in MC stage refered to 0.5mv. and according the standard/norm/rule: EIA/CEA-490-A , the same spec for MM but reffered to 5.0mv and 110db at 1 V ( unity gain ) in line stage. ( Both channels .) Slew rate: 300 V/mseg. Common mode rej.: 130db. ( Both channels. ) Distortion: 0.0002% ( Both channels. ) Input overload: MC: 15 mVrms @ 1 kHz (High-gain), 30 mVrms @ 1 kHz (Low-gain) MM: 500 mVrms @ 1 kHz. Total weight: 55 lbs. When I write ( both channels ) this means that both channels measures exactly the same ! ! ! - Mark Levinson Reference 20.6 monobloks: It is a great industrial design, military specs, bullet proof, great and unique bipolar amplifier design. It is a fully regulated input to output design that use Arlon circuit boards and have " only " 100 watts of pure class A at 8 ohms, that double that figure at 4,2,1 and 0.5 ohm with an output impedance of 0.012 ohms! Each monoblokc amplifier power supply is supported for two " big " toroidal transformers ( 600VA each ). I modified the original Levinson circuitry with better passive parts , silver internal rewiring and not only for the signal but for the electrical power one, power supply lines are free of fuses because I by-passed all of them, by-pass some circuit stages where the signal passed and the must important was the invert stage for balanced operation. Things were that the 20.6 was designed as a single ended amplifier not a dual diferential true balanced design, they only adds a fully invert stage for the customer can play with in balance mode if he wants it but the real " magic " in this design is in single end way that’s how I’m using it by-passing totally the very complicated ( several parts. ) invert stages, with this the " purity and integrity " of the audiio signal suffer way lower degradations/distortions. It is at the 20.6 input where through only one best Teflon cap and best naked resistor it makes the frequency croosover for the main speakers in the bi-amp system. Both Teflon caps are mated at 0.1% in between and the resistors at 0.001% as tolerances in between. Amplifiers bias is always mantained at same value in between the 20.6s as all the other main amplifiers specs. My monobloks can compete with any today amplifier you can name it and can surpass some of them. - Main system speakers. My ADS L2030 speakers were not designed as a home speaker but as a Professional Monitor. What that means?, this is what ADS says: " reproduce the most challenging program sources with the utmost ACCURACY and authority. No other transducer ( in production. ) can offer the combination of ultra-wide frequency and dynamic range, freedom from SONIC COLORATION, extremely LOW DISTORTION, high image accuracy and superb dynamic linearity. The speakers acoustic suspension design comes with very powerful magnets for the silk dome tweters and mid-ranges where woofers made it with pulp/fabric material with a magnetic flux of: 635,000, 1,830,000 and 1,400,000 nanoWebers respectively. These L 2030 was designed by Mike Kelly ( Aerial speakers ) and till today it match all my priorities. It is " heavy " tweaked to do that: internally is hard wired with silver wire. I take out the crossover ( now is external ) and change all the parts: resistors ( Duelum. ), all silver ribbon air core inductors, teflon caps, i dissapeared all the speaker’s protection circuits, apply internal damping to put at minimum its resonances, I integrate a back side speaker tweeter same efficiency and silk dome too that has its dedicated silver wired independent crossover at 7.5khz. and the speakers silver’s cables goes hard soldered directly to the crossover parts . In reality are three separate/stand alone crossovers: one for the tweeter, one for the midrange and the other for the woofer, all these hard-wired directly to the amps ( no connectors. ) by 3 independent silver’s cables that goes from the amplifier outputs to each one external passive crossover. I change the internal damping glass fiber by 10kg ( each one ) of long hair 100% virgin wool and change the fabric cloth of the grille for a " transparent one ". Both speakers have at the rear-center the Antiresonant Vibration System by MICROSCAN model TM-8 that works from 20hz to 1.5Khz. These are some manufacturer specs: - Frecuency response: 22-20K +.- 3 db ; 18-28K +.- 5db. -Efficiency: 95 db SPL. - Power rating: 300 watts nominal; 1,200 peak. Weight: 95kg. - system room treatment almost dissapeared because I don’t need it any more because room interactions almost dissapeared too thanks to that " glorious " near " perfect " bass system’s management. That’s only part of the whys I’m listening and enjoying MUSIC and not DISTORTIONS and why you can’t be aware of that terrible FR’s degradations. Got it? Does any one experience for the very first time a true enjoying of MUSIC at home instead of distortions?, then first step is stay away of any single tube, try to remember that we are all living in 2017 ! ! not in the 30’s. As I said the culprit are not the audiophiles but that old corrupted AHEE. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Raul, your system has some interesting components. There are two glaring issues in my view - 1. It is simply not possible to accommodate a true full range system in your small, over damped room without the room itself inducing significant distortion. The location of your equipment between your speakers and the proximity of the speakers and subwoofers so close to the walls is a severe restriction on performance. If you believe that you have achieved flat response in this environment, then it must be at the expense of significant phase and time errors at the listening position resulting in severely distorted soundstage reproduction and distorted fundamentals and overtones. Furthermore the multi driver approach to speaker building has its own distortions related to competing wavefronts emanating from the drivers in room that cause smearing and phase and time anomalies. Not even steep crossover designs and digital correction systems can fully address this issue. 2.You have stated recently that your analogue source cannot match your digital source. This indicates to me that your analogue system is seriously deficient, particularly in resolution. I have heard Meitner, Soulution, MSB, PS Audio Direct Stream, Zanden digital front ends in situ and they are still not up to the best analogue in resolution. I would suggest you look at purchasing a fully integrated analogue front end such as a complete Rega package ( P10 including Rega arm and cartridge ) that is plug and play. This would give you a benchmark analogue front end that will enable you to see where you have gone wrong. It is possible because you have so many turntables, arms and cartridges that you cannot see the wood for the trees and indeed are missing out on the analogue experience. In summary it is great that you enjoy your system, but your system is a summation of distortions induced at every level in the chain including the room. That you would hold out that your system has lower distortions than any other on this forum would be a fantasy at best.. Regards |
The location of your equipment between your speakers and the proximity of the speakers and subwoofers so close to the walls is a severe restriction on performance. Hi Dover, I agree completely with you assessment on Raul’s room / treatment, especially the problem of putting all those turntables so close to the speakers. The airborne vibration, feedback to the turntable system when music is playing, is more than enough to wipe out all the so call low distortion measures of the equipment. Yes, most audiophiles do put their turntables in the same room as the speakers for convenience purpose, but for someone like Raul, who claims to have pull all the stops on eliminating distortions?!!!! |
Dear @dover / @thekong : As always you only looking for an " error " in what I posted here and elsewhere. I can’t remember you any single post in reference to mines where you really enriched/enhanced the ignorance level of audiophiles that reads the threads/posts. Always looking for an opportunity to " attack ". Fortunatelly with no success and this only increment your frustations. Anyway, here my answer to your post: as a very good student you repeat what the AHEE teached to all of us but that is not real rule because each " stage/enviroment " is diferent. Let me explain mine: my subwoofers are not close to walls or in the corners, as a fact one of it is located in a " free " space and the other has the only wall damped, I still use, behind it. The main speakers that works 87 hz to over 25khz has no wall behind it but windows where in the center of the window ( floor to ceiling ) I have like 1m. wide damping. One of the main speakers is almost in a " freee " space. My in purpose room damping I’m using are ( mainly ) diffusors by RPG. The furniture in the room are mainly wood/wool/cotton fabrics that are very good difussors and with some damping too. The rugs fabrics is all wool. I have to say that I don’t live in my " island " of audio/music only environment/stage. My system was and is enjoyed by several audiophiles and I listened " hundreds " of home audio systems here in México and USA. Lisneted systems from 25K-30K to over 350K prices. I did and still do that listening other system " lessons " to have true references against my system other than live MUSIC events. So, it’s not only me who think my system distortions are really really low but other gentlemans including musicians that can attest it. As you know and through the time I developed my own test/evaluation in deep proccess where through the years I received a deep training that permits me to identify several kind of distortions you just can’t imagine exist in your system. That bullet proof evaluation proccess is repeatable anywhere and I can identify advantages and disadvantages in any home system in no more than 1 hour. Other that what I posted here about part of my system you can read too my latests posts in the subwoofer thread. I can’t give you all the information of my system here, it’s full of very fine details. Due to your post I took some part of my evaluation proccess that normally I don’t use it very often becfause I know very well my system and the results/success of my up-grades/up-dates/tweacks but I did it these past two days because your post: fist is to compare through my Stax headphoes the quality sound level against my near-field seat position. Nothing here confirm or even approach nothing of what you posted: there are no higher distortions, phase problems, colorations, time errors, distorted soundstage or fundamentals/harmonics: CERO CERO. second, I use ( first ) a stetoscopyc not only at the TT/tonearm under evaluation/playing but at the other TTs that were in static way and through the racks too. I did it using Telarc 1812, Dafos and Firebird tracks not at 83db normal SPL but at 97dbs ( at seat position. ) with 109db on peaks and you know something: I can’t detect any vibration/resonance because that air borne. Finally my water glasses test, with different glass sizes and different water quantities on each one. Where I put those glasses all over the system items that are inbetween speakers/subwoofers and you know something: NO SINGLE WATER MOVEMENTS at that very high SPLs. On my posts here and in the Do you think you need a subwoofer? latest ones I posted: SYSTEM/ROOM NOISE FLOOR GOES LOWER AND LOWER WHERE THE ROOM ALMOST DISAPPEARED. That is an experience where you can’t even dream with when you are living on and with those terrible 30’s. When you listen my system you just can’t be aware of those subwoofers thank’s to system near " perfect " system/room integration that achieved a fenomenal system/room BASS MANAGEMENT as you can’t even dream with. You just can’t know what I’m talking about but my friends here can. The level of resolution of my today system/room is second to none of all the systems I listened through my life. No, it’s not a " fantasy " as you say trying to diminish my posts. The blend of whole circumstances/environment in my system/room made it that performs with that kind of quality level . Btw, I did all my latest system/room evaluation with both alternatives: digital and analog one and I can say you and every one that digital is way superior to analog and I posted this not in the last month but for more than two years now.Btw, I’m not against the analog alternative, I like it too but can’t even the digital one. Only whom his ignorance level is so high can today think that analog is superior to today digital NO WAY MY FRIEND. I can enjoy both alternatives and I will do in the future. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not distortions, R. |
I did it using Telarc 1812, Dafos and Firebird tracks not at 83db normal SPL but at 97dbs ( at seat position. ) with 109db on peaks and you know something: I can’t detect any vibration/resonance because that air borne. Really Raul? No vibration/resonance because that air borne? Why use a stethoscope when you have all those turntables setup, which is probably way more sensitive. It was nice that you mentioned you were also using a Stax headphones, I hope you (and anyone who thinks he doesn't have feedback problem), wouldn't mind doing the following simple test and let us know what happens. 1. Play music (your Telarc 1812 would be great) using your CD/digital system through the speakers at normal listening level (yes, that 97dbs ( at seat position. ) with 109db on peaks) 2. Lower the cartridge on a stationary platter / LP (i.e. motor off, platter not turning) 3. Connect the cartridge to the phono / preamp as usual, 4. Listen to the phono system with a headphone, preferably in another room. I doubt that you could have complete silence (or faint noise from the phono) at the headphone. I am pretty sure you could hear faint music through it (although it could sound funny as it has gone through the RIAA stage). If that is true, that means your turntable system is suffering from continuous feedback when you are playing LP, and you can throw all those 0.00002% distortion figures out the window! |
Oh Raul, if you perform the above test and come back telling us you really hear complete silence through the headphone, I would be very interested to learn how you / your system could achieve that! You were, maybe still are, trying to develop a tonearm, so you must know a lot about how the tonearm / cartridge system works, and have specific scientific knowledge about it. 1. Music, or sound, is basically a vibration of the air. So, the music playing through your speakers will certainly transmit the vibration to your tonearm / cartridge system, as there is nothing blocking its path. 2. As in your example, I suppose if you play the Telarc 1812 at 109db peak, you probably could feel the pressure on your chest. If there is so much energy transmitting to your chest, then how can the tonearm / cartridge be immune to it ? 3. A cartridge is designed to pick up the exact frequency range of the music, i.e. those coming through your speaker. So, even if your tonearm has absolutely zero resonance, how could it block / dampen the air-borne vibrations directly hitting the cartridge body. Like you, I always try to learn, so I would much appreciate if you could give some answers with scientific prove to the above. Thanks! |
Dear @thekong @lewm and friends: Next is what I posted somewhere in this thread: """" Now and this is something that almost no one take care when talking of the FR 66/64 and is that that touted ( @lewm ) high mass is the other serious problem of those arms other than the main non-damped design. In those old years tonearm designers and TTs ones were in favor of high mass to damps its products. On tonearms was SAEC whom publicited " papers " explaining the tonearm advantages of high mass designs as their models but were totally wrong because they don’t took in count how it really works the cartridge/tonearm combination along the spining LPs. Exist no single LP that comes with precise/perfect concentric hole for the TT spindle to avoid the normal " excursions " during playback. Those " excursions " ( lateral movements. ) along the other characteristics for the cartridge very hard work ridding the LP grooves means that as higher the effective tonearm mass as higher problems to " stop " the inside/forward to the spindle natural path of the tonearm because of those movements. Lower mass tonearm has lot lower problems to stop that natural inside inertia to follow in better way the LP grooves. That dynamic mass/high inertia goes against a precise and clear sound and per se produces distortions ..........."""" Here you can read what explain in better way the very high problems of high mass tonearms like the FR/SAEC ones. What you read is an explanation how it works dynamic mass/inertia with cartridges I took the information from SS site and the explanation comes from PL owner/designer. ) that is similar what happens ( one way or the other ) with high mass tonearms designs. No it’s not exactly but you can have the whole idea of what I posted not only here but years ago in this same forum: """ On the left is a relatively SMALL Moving coil armature, the right is our LARGEST tiny permeable flux modulator. You can see by the obvious size differences that the moving-coil system has far greater mass, which means much higher inertia. That is a bad thing. A large amount of mass in the moving system is greatly detrimental to the performance of phono cartridges. One obvious reason is the simple aspect of just getting the mass moving; moving this mass and then reversing its direction quickly as described above. The more mass, the more stored energy, and the longer it takes to get it moving (and the more difficult it is to reverse its direction). One of the most important problems that arises from too much mass (or inertial problems) is what is the path of this "stored" energy? Where does it go?? The simple matter is that once you store energy in the moving system the stored energy must go somewhere to be dissipated or gotten rid of. Some of this energy gets damped, but a very large amount of this energy reflects back down the cantilever and into the stylus – which tries to put this energy into the record. This is extremely bad. Since cartridges are designed to receive energy from a record, and not put energy into a record, large problems occur when this issue emerges. When there is an attempt to try to put energy back into the record the result is that the stylus jumps horribly within the record groove, and does not stay in intimate contact with the groove walls. Its like a badly designed sports car on a bumpy road. The resulting signal that is created is not entirely representative of what is recorded in the groove. Becasue it behaves like a tire on a bumpy road it spends lots of time in the air, and not much time in contact with the road surface. The stylus’ attempt to put energy into the record results in what is technically called a “mechanical impedance mismatch” – lots of energy being driven into a small mass (the stylus), which cannot “move” the massive record groove. The result is “groove jitter” and poor statistical-contact with the groove walls. If you cant stay in contact, you cant hear what is truly on the record! After all, if you don’t read all the words, you wont get the story ! Our job is to get you the entire story, not bits and pieces of it ............so how do we make this happen? If you lower the generator mass, two important things happen: Less effort is required to move it, and less energy is stored by inertia, which results is far less energy reflecting back down the cantilever and into the stylus. This means less jittering of the stylus in the groove, because it has less energy that it is trying to put into the record. """" That's what happens too in all high mass TT platters designs: storaged energy. For year too, I spoke and posted that that very high dynamic mass on TT platters induce distortions/resonances/micro-vibrations because every " body " in movement has it. We can't go against Physic Laws. If it's true that on BD designs some kind of mass is need it ( higher than in DD designs. ) the high mass design path makes more harm than improve any single high mass platter design. All today followers of that kind of wrong strategy that started the Japanese TT manufacturers are not only wrong but in worst condition that those very old Japanese TT designs because today BD TT platters comes with even 10 times more higher dynamic mass than the old designs. ! ! ! ! Yes, we have to stay aways of high mass tonearms and high mass TT platters design. Goes against MUSIC. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not distortions, R. |
I see, still babbling on the same old viewpoint, yet avoiding direct question about your system’s distortion. Typical! You were, maybe still are, trying to develop a tonearm, so you must know a lot about how the tonearm / cartridge system works, and have specific scientific knowledge about it. Apparently, the latter part of my statement above was just false! |
Dear @lewm : Not really, in a high mass tonearms the cartridge changes of direction can’t do it in the same way than a low/medium mass. Effective mass is the inertia that goes inside and very dificult to " stop " that high inerteia against low inertia. That’s what happen at cartridge stylus tip level and are induced higher distortions. Ridicolous or not, like it or not. @lewm , What is totally ridiculous an anacronism is that in 2017 you still are sticked with that tube 30's alternative. THIS IS WAY RIDICULOUS ! ! ! ! Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not distortions, R. |
Wish it was practical to get rid of the transistors in both of my systems. The first transistor, by the way, was invented in 1947. The idea for the active devices you cherish is 70 years old. On the other hand, tubes go way back before the 1930s, even longer ago than what you wrote above. Probably the vacuum tube is more like 100 years old. The triode is inherently more linear than any transistor. This is not a matter of opinion. The age of the technology has nothing to do with it. Do you really think that your system with 3 or 4 (not sure which) passive crossovers in the signal path is ever going to be optimal? What's better, no capacitor in the signal path or several very excellent capacitors (and resistors and inductors, required in order to achieve those steep slopes)? For me, the answer is "no capacitor". It's no wonder to me that you require a solid state amplifier to drive the complex and energy dissipating reactance of the crossover(s) you place between the amplifier and the speakers. What does the impedance curve look like? It must be a nightmare of low values, 2 ohms? 4 ohms? The question of what amplifier is optimal should never be decided out of context with the speaker to be mated with it, and you've created a monster that needs a high power solid state amplifier, to be sure. If you like it, that's fine. The whole world is wrong, and you are the only one who sees the light. Congratulations. |
@thekong : DYNAMIC EFFECTIVE MASS /
effective inertial mass of the arm / cart combination. The cartridge is loaded with that dynamic effective inertial mass where as higher the tonearm effective mass as more " problems " happens at stylus tip micro levels that induce distortions higher that with lower effective inertial mass. If high mass tonearms been the " ideal " then " infinite efective inertial mass " will be the name of the game. Anyway, the point is there. Rgerads and enjoy the music, R. |
Raul, instead of babbling on the same old things, probably better if you could finish your ideal tonearm and show the world you are right! It is 2017 already you know? How many years have past since you told members here the arm would be ready "NEXT YEAR"? BTW, have you tested how bad the air-borne feedback problem really is in your room as mentioned before? |
Perhaps I underestimated Raul when we first encountered, but he doesn't have to name the type of distortion for it to be there. The Pabst motor is not the culprit on the Sota table, it's the controller unit which probably needs service, although the design is from an early period in modern, table history. The FR64S is a primitive POS. What happens to the amplitude of resonance when there is a severe mismatch? What is the function of fluid damping in this case? Full range electrostatic spks. do not have the midbass impact of dynamic spks. If someone claims they do, then I question their hearing ability. |
Dear @lewm : Not a monster that's for sure. The ML amps is a very special amp design with no trouble on handle almost anything with real aplomb.No, I don't have that nigthtmare impedance curve you name it, ADS makes no that kind of " mistakes ". Yes, the best resistor/cap/inductor or cable is NO resistor/cap/inductor or cable but sometimes as it happens in the 99% of the speakers designs are need it. I think that the passive crossover in my ADS is optimized and does the less harm to the audio signal you, me or any one else could achieve. So, I'm confident on this main issue. In the other side and when you are talking of " linearity " we have to think that today transistors designed expressely for audio are not the same as in the " old " times and other than that we have to talk here not only on linearity but about frequency bandwindth, signal transfer velocities, intrinsic devices distortions and the like.You are a wise man, so don't try to justify what in 2017 has no single justification other that you already pay for it and have to live with. Remember that like me you are a " by product " of that touted AHEE and this is your problem not mine. Btw, I'm not the only one that sees the light but a person that sees the light in way better way that some as you can't do it yet. In other thread you posted that have some bass problems with your main system and you want to solve it adding subs and I know that move/action it helps but as you stated somewhere tubes are not for bass overall management. I know very well your Sl and heard it with tubes and ss electronics and differences are like nigth and day. Yes, I know you like tubes and you said I'm with ss alternative but the reality is that I like MUSIC not electronics. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear @thekong : """
I hope you ........ wouldn't mind doing the following simple test and let us know what happens............................................................. ...................................................................... I doubt that you could have complete silence (or faint noise from the phono) at the headphone. I am pretty sure you could hear faint music through it (although it could sound funny as it has gone through the RIAA stage). """ Makes no sense to me that you ask for some tests in my audio system when I have to prove you or any one else nothing at all. I already told you here and evrywhere in other threads why I can have a quality sound reproduction through my home audio system that you can't have it and because you can't have it you just can't imagine or understand what I'm talking about. """ I suppose if you play the Telarc 1812 at 109db peak, you probably could feel the pressure on your chest. """ that stament you made it confirm you understand it because in my today enviroment I don't feel the pressure in my chest ! ! ! Do it a big favor and maybe the best in your audio life: - avoid any single tube in the audio signal. Yes you have to change to SS. - install a dedicated fully regulated power electrical line with surge protection, 80-90 db noise reduction and RFI/EMI supresors. - that all your audio system eletrical power cords be connected/soldered with pure all silver cable directly to the electronics boards with no single connector in between. - by-pass all fuses in your audio system. - install two well designed active subwoofers in true stereo fashion in your system. With the main speakers working as a satellite ones and with out external active high pass crossover. - reduce at minimum the room treatment. - that your phono stage comes with the Neumann pole at the RIAA eq. WShen you did it then run the tests you are suggesting that I do and after that come back to me and the forum to share your experiences. I never ask somebody something that I did not experienced my self in my system and never talk about theories but facts, first hands experiences: always. Yes, as many of us ( including me. ) you have to learn many things. Test your self is the " best " way to grow-up to any audiophile. It's very easy to give opinions that if not experienced are useless for you, me and everyone. You can't understand of what kind of distortions I'm talking about because you never been aware/detect it, you just don't know exist and have plenty of them in your today set-up. In the other side, I have three finished of our self tonearmdesign and of course that I can't ask you have it because this you can't do it: yet ! ! ! Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS, R. |
I am a bit embarrassed and apologetic to the others as regards this exchange of insults in which I have participated. Fleib, your tone is no surprise to me; cut back on the coffee. Your level of certainty based on no data is also not a surprise. Raul, let’s just get one thing straight, if nothing else: you have never heard my Sound Lab speakers or any Sound Lab speakers that have been dramatically altered as have mine. My speakers have essentially no crossover, whereas the OEM Sound Lab speakers have an RC network to produce a high pass filter. The filter causes a major impedance dip at midrange frequencies. Furthermore, the resistor in the RC network robs amplifier power (Fleib). This robs the speaker of dynamics (Fleib), even when driven by a solid state behemoth, and really kills it with tube amplification. Please grant me this one thing, as I am willing to grant you that I have not heard your specially prepared and set up ADC speakers. If you want more info on the Sound Lab mod, we wrote about it on the Sound Lab Owners Group website. Dr. West modified his production speakers after thinking about what we had done, and why we did it, although he did not take our ideas as far as we did. ("We" is a guy in Australia and me, and then several other SL owners.) I found Dr. West to be a very fine gentleman. By the way, I would never use a transformer-coupled tube amplifier to drive ESLs. I use OTL tube amplifiers only, and my amplifiers are also one of a kind. I think when Raul dismisses tube amplification, he is really thinking about the imperfections of audio output transformers. My whole system upstream from the ESL has two capacitors in the signal path, one is 0.1uF and the other is 0.22uF (excluding the RIAA network of course). Both caps are teflon film and foil (VCap CuTf). Anyone who lives in my area is more than welcome to stop by for a listen, except Fleib. Neither of us probably has any idea what the other is listening to. But, of course, I have two separate audio systems. The other one is based on a Beveridge 2SW with transmission line woofer below 80 Hz. The Beveridge is a direct-drive type of ESL in which the back wave is completely attenuated and the output from the front of the panel is refracted by a wave guide. NO audio step up transformer, no crossover above 80 Hz. (At 80 Hz, I use an active crossover with premium parts.) The Beveridge is quite dynamic (Fleib). Not the technicolor dynamics of a typical horn speaker, but definitely fast. The input and drive sections of the Beveridge direct-drive amplifier are solid state. Tubes are required in the output stage to achieve the +/-1600V needed to direct-drive the panels. (The FR64S is in this system.) I promise that this is my last retaliatory post on this thread, and I do apologize to others for the sturm und drang. Now I think I will relax and enjoy the music. |
bdp, Inside the chassis of each of my Beveridge amplifiers is the inscription, done in magic marker: "RM 1979". Knowing that Modjeski collaborated with Harold Beveridge back then, I have always assumed that he is "RM". With the help of an EE who owns a pair of Model 2 speakers, I/we have made quite a few improvements to the circuit, but there is only so much you can do, because the input stage is amazingly complex to begin with and for good reasons. He usually sends me long and detailed email instructions, and I print them out to have them at hand before doing anything new or trouble-shooting. I zapped my finger-tip once with 1600V; you don't forget that experience. When the speaker is fully assembled, the panels sit directly on top of the amplifier providing a direct connection between the two. The amplifier section effectively is the base of the speaker, for each channel. No loose speaker wires allowed. I bought a copy of the schematic from RM, a few years ago when I first acquired the Bevs. There's at least one company (in Europe) that markets a ESL direct-drive amplifier which they claim can drive the Sound Labs, which is no mean feat, since the SLs require at least 5kV on each stator (and no one outside of the SL factory really knows exactly what the voltage needs to be). Ralph Karsten says he can make one, too. I am tempted. Maybe in my idle retirement years I will try it. |
Dear @thekong : """
Makes no sense to me that you ask for some tests in my audio system when I have to prove you or any one else nothing at all. """ I told you ( and every one. ) those because what I'm doing in this thread was and is only to share my first hand experiences, not to convince any one of something. I repeat, only sharing my experiences as always did and do. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear @lewm : """
you have never heard my Sound Lab speakers or any Sound Lab speakers that have been dramatically altered as have mine... """ Sorry but that is not the main subject through my posts here but only a part of. I think you are missing the whole and main subject. Anyway, you already know ( because I posted over the forum more than 3-4 times. ) that the only ESL speakers I could live with could be the Soundlabs. As you know a close friend of mine owns the top of the line here in México city an he received as 3 months ago his originals speakers that he send it for an up-date and he made it some tweacks on it but I'm not sure exactly what he did it and is not this the main subject. I explain all those for you be aware that I know very well Soundlabs as my friends's modified ones. No, not exactly the same you own but it's not so important as you think. There are several critical issues that I touched in my posts in this thread and the more important relationed with your main system are: - first that the analog and/or digital signal pass through several tubes when one tube destroy the audio signal integrity in higher way than a bipolar transitor several ones/tubes is something catastrofic for say the least. - that main system have not an adequated system bass management and with out it any single system is totally incomplete. Home audio MUSIC belongs two both frequency extremes and very special on that accurate " bass management ". OTL designs can't help becaus etubes are there. All your ESL modifications can't honor MUSIC till those tubes disappears from the audio signal and till you have that accurate/adequate system bass management. There are other issues but is useless to continue speaking about till things changes in those both critical subjects that are indisputable/incontrovertible. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Makes no sense to me that you ask for some tests in my audio system when I have to prove you or any one else nothing at all. Dear Raul, of course you have no obligation to prove to me, or anyone else, it is your system after all! Only that you always claimed to be willing to learn that I thought you would be interested in a simple test, which would take you less time to carry out than writing the response, to prove to YOURSELF whether airborne feedback was causing any problem in your system. Well, after all those distortion talks, I suppose it feels better living in the comfort of the pipe dream believing all is well in your system, than to venture into the potential horror of finding out airborne feedback is indeed causing distortions. The true horror was, of course, the claimed highly trained ears couldn’t even detect that! """ I suppose if you play the Telarc 1812 at 109db peak, you probably could feel the pressure on your chest. """ That is interesting, playing Telarc 1812 at 109db peak (yes, those cannon shots) without feeling the pressure on your chest! That really gives me a better picture regarding the performance of your system, thank you! Yes, you are right, I don’t have that in my system, I can’t imagine that, but then, I also don’t want that ! Interesting enough, you posted the following in another thread: Dear @enginedr1960: Yes, always near field live MUSIC is the perfect REFERENCE for audiophiles….. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/my-personal-experience-with-direct-drive-versus-belt-drive Do you really believe your chest wouldn’t feel the pressure if you were standing close to those live cannon shorts during the recording of the Telarc 1812? If you think the talk of airborne feedback is nonsense, then please take a look at what a true expert, Mr J Carr, who you like to quote to support your position on the FR64S, had to say (emphasis by capitalization by me) : BTW, I wouldn’t recommend combining the phono preamp together with the power amp. THE SOUND OF THE TURNTABLE IS TOO MUCH AFFECTED BY VIBRATIONS TRANSMITTED THROUGH THE AIR AND GROUND. FOR TOP PERFORMANCE THE TURNTABLE SHOULD BE IN A SEPARATE ROOM/CLOSET ISOLATED FROM THE VIBRATIONS AND AIR PRESSURE FROM THE LOUDSPEAKERS. If you were to go with a combination phono/preamp/power amp together with the turntable in an isolated room, the speaker cables would likely need to be v-e-r-y long. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/best-phono-preamps Of course, if you are happy with the current performance of your system, then by all means enjoy it! Best regards, |
Dear @thekong : Look, I never said that air borne does not produce vibrations/distortions. In the other side, I already did it that test. Now, it's precisely that good or bad system's bass management and the way is handle for who determines how those bass waves arrives to your seat position. The bass waves of fundamental notes in the 1812 cannon shots ( 8hz-16 hz. ) through a home system can't impact your chest because are not " builded, yet. . Are to big waves ( a little different in an open enviroment as how those shots were recorded. I have not this live experience, so I can't tell you about. ). These big waves normally came from the floor up and depending of that system/room handling is how you will feel it. If you can feel it in your chest then what you are feeling could be some of the overtones distorted by that bad system/room management. Those overtones came developed from the fundamental notes. Maybe your system can't even ( electronics. ) reproduce those frequencies or your speakers and that's why you can't live today my experiences. I don't want to go deeper in this important regards till you can mimic ( more or less. ) my system/room experiences I shared here. Opinions has no real value with out first hand experiences on what other people shares. You, me and every one need to have facts on hand not theories or just opinions on what we think about. Where are those facts?: FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES IN SIMILAR CONDITIONS. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @chakster : Why is crazy? when in the day by day life in a dialogue between two gentlemans and when are talking on any topic/subject always between that " talking " they touch other alternative issues and at the end several times finished " talking " on a very different topic. That's the way the human beens are. The audio forums, its real utility, is precesily that: that in a thread we talk on many relationed subjects that for many of us are part of each one audio learning curve. This is the way I learned and still I do it. This is the way to confirm if I'm rigth or wrong. This the way I can discern my self about any single audio subject and that way is the one that permits me to test and start evaluations that I never imagine I had to do it. Crazy?, not really. I think is a strict audiophile's necessity to grow-up. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
yeah, first it's was a topic, then it became a dialogue between 3-4 gentelments, on normal forums it's called off topic or free speach. I think we have no moderation here anymore, but something like "free speach thread" would be nice to remove stuff like that right there from each topics when people go too far from the original question. Actually i don't care, just a thoughts. Playin records from another room subject has nothing to do with FR54 vs.FR64 tonearms anyway. |
Dear @thekong : Look, I never said that air borne does not produce vibrations/distortions. In the other side, I already did it that test. Dear Raul, great! So, did you hearing complete silent or a faint sound of music through the headphone in that test? The bass waves of fundamental notes in the 1812 cannon shots ( 8hz-16 hz. ) through a home system can't impact your chest because are not " builded, yet. . Are to big waves ( a little different in an open enviroment as how those shots were recorded. I have not this live experience, so I can't tell you about. ). These big waves normally came from the floor up and depending of that system/room handling is how you will feel it. If you can feel it in your chest then what you are feeling could be some of the overtones distorted by that bad system/room management. Those overtones came developed from the fundamental notes. Maybe your system can't even ( electronics. ) reproduce those frequencies or your speakers and that's why you can't live today my experiences. Your theory about big waves can’t be “build” in a relatively small room (as compared to open space) just can’t be true. As bass is more or less pressure waves, it would expanded in all directions. As I learned from Discovery Channel (or was that National Geographic?) that many of the hand-held antitank missiles cannot be fire within a house, as that would create over pressure which could hurt/kill the operator. So, you theory of not feeling the pressure because of the relatively small room is just false. Actually, bass or not, any sound wave, including the treble, would impact the turntable system and create feedback and, therefore, distortion. Only that the bass, which carries more energy, would have a bigger affect. You just can't fight the physics. You, me and every one need to have facts on hand not theories or just opinions on what we think about. Where are those facts?: FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES IN SIMILAR CONDITIONS. Well, I assume you have not fire a live cannon in your room, most likely not even a bass drum, so how do you know they could not “build” the pressure in a room? Where are those facts? |
Recently, the movie "Heist", with Robert DeNiro et al, was shown on one of my cable channels. In that movie, DeNiro cracks an otherwise impregnable safe by first drilling a hole in the top, then filling the safe with water. He then drops a small explosive charge into the water-filled, sealed safe. This results in the bursting of the safe due to the lack of compressibility of water, much as you say would happen if you fired off an explosive in a small house. But I think there is a difference between dissipating the energy and hearing the extreme low bass frequencies. I think you do need "space" in order to propagate the frequencies as audible sound, where the wave length exceeds the dimensions of the closed environment. So, in a small room, you might get the worst of both worlds: unwanted energy that can feed back upon the equipment and failure to reproduce the sound as music. |
Lewm/The Kong, I agree that some of the claims of flat response in room on this forum are doubtful where the listening room is small. I have even seen one claim on this site that a system using pair of Acoustats in a room not much bigger than a broom closet can reproduce bass flat down to 20hz in room. Furthermore full range systems often "overdrive" small rooms. ( For Rauls benefit, this is not conjecture, I have learned this from experience in setting up 100's of systems ). In my own case my listening room is 37'x15' with a high stud ceiling and the benefits when shifting the system from a smaller medium sized room were obvious. Similar experiences shifting turntables around the room relative to the speaker position have resulted in reduced distortion in my experience - this is not rocket science - it is simply finding the least resonant environment for positioning a mechanical device that measures minute groove modulations in motion. In my experience locating the TT between the speakers is second only to "behind the speaker" or corner location in inducing distortion into the playback. |
Dear @thekong : First and as I told you I do not disclose about the test I did t and that you suggested till you make something in your overall system to make some tests of all of what I posted in this thread. If you are feeling through your system listen sessions that " something " is hitting your chest that it's not low bass but mid-bass or high distortions somewhere. Even if the bass wave is builded no one can hear it trhough ears but only hear through the whole body. Many years ago some music/distortions waves hit my chest: not any more and I have to tell you that nothing rattle in my room even at over 100 db SPL ( I'm talking of low bass. ) and in the past ( not so long time. ) I feel those waves through my legs and with some rattle somewhere in the room. Today there is no rattle and the bass waves hit me mainly at my middle of part of my back and sometimes at the same heigth at my body sides. As I posted here or somewhere my room " disappeared ". Yes, SPL is always a real problem in any room. With out it we can't hear and fell nothing. Things are that even very high SPLs are handled by system/room with an unexpected aplomb and the main reason is that that system/room works with distortions at minimum. A gentleman posted in other totally different thread this: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/my-personal-experience-with-direct-drive-versus-belt-drive/po... in the last two senteces we can read: """ This makes me think some people do like pleasant distortion . Remember ignorance is bliss until you have heard the difference . """ that's part of each one step in the audio/music learning ladder. Difference is that that specific step ( on what I posted. ) I passed before you and other gentlemans. You can't understand what you do not experienced ever and for you there is no reasonable explanation and that's why you think I'm wrong and other that I'm really crazy or whatever. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear Raul, it is ok, you don't have to disclose the test result; the test was meant for your own benefit only. Actually, we all know the answer already! You could feel the pressure created by the Telarc 1812's cannon shots in your system before, but can't feel it now, and you concluded that now is better. I have no argument regarding your preference, but how do you know / prove your system is having lower distortion now, where are the facts? Maybe it is the other way around, you are liking the higher pleasant distortion (without pressure) in your current system / setup! |
I can see how this tone arm thread got sidetracked . Reading in between the lines I think Raul is talking about room acoustic distortion caused by modal coupling . http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/20101026using-subwoofers-to-improve-sound-quality-part-2-room-modes-html/ The reason to use multiple subwoofers |
Dear @thekong : """ Actually, we all know the answer already! """ I don't know other people but I'm totally sure you don't because you don't know or understand what I'm talking about. You can't understand what you are not experienced yet. No, it was useless for me because I already know the answer and only confirm it. Where said I I don't feel the generated room SPL by the Telarc 1812?. What I said is that I feel it but with a lot lower distortions levels than ever and that you can't even imagine. @thekong , again how can you argue/contend nothing at all with that system full of tubes that means THE WORST DISTORTIONS WE CAN HAVE/ACHIEVE !!! Forgeret. You think you know almost everything but in the subjects of my posts, and with all respect, you know nothing: CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear Rual, great, now you are saying you could feel it. I just don't know how you can feel lower distortion! I can understand if you say you can hear it, but feeling the distortion? How does it feel actually? No matter, now that you can feel it, then it gets back to the original issue. If you can feel it, then the air-borne vibration will also be transmitted to your turntable system, as there is no barrier, causing feedback and distortion. This is just physics! So much for the claim that your system has lower distortion than anyone else! |
Dear @thekong : All human beens can hear and feel distortions. Distortions comes from everywhere in our day life ( not only audio. ). In audio music comes along distortions of every kind and as music the distortions comes along its harmonics/overtones. Do you think that when we feel a low bass SPL what we feel is only " music "?, no my friend always comes with distortions generated in the system/room. Problem is that you are unaware of almost any kind of distortions at any frequency range and you can't detect it because the poor resolution of your system and because you don't know what to look for ! ! ! In the other side, I never posted here or every where that my system has lower distortions than anyone else. You did it. What I can tell you is that my system/room has lot lot lower distortions than yours. It's useless to continue talking when exist a to high differences on audio ignorance levels between two persons as you and me. It's useless that you try to find out real arguments to prove I'm wrong when you can't be sure: I'M NOT. Period. Re-read carefully this that are not my words but other gentleman ones: """ """ This makes me think some people do like pleasant distortion . Remember ignorance is bliss until you have heard the difference . """ Btw, it's not your culprit that very low audio knowledge level you have because as all of us you learned and still do through that corrupted AHEE. You are a clear example of the damage AHEE did it and does. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS, R. |
In the other side, I never posted here or every where that my system has lower distortions than anyone else.Dear Raul, good, then we have no disagreement. What I can tell you is that my system/room has lot lot lower distortions than yours.I really have no problem with that, if it is true, as I have never posted that my system has low distortion. The problem that I can see is you can't prove it! I don't think you have any idea on the distortion level of your complete system/room. Have you compared the sound signal at your listening seat, with the signal from the phono/cd output by testing equipment? I bet not! Then you have to rely on your highly trained ears, but they couldn't even detect the distortion caused by the airborne feedback to your turntable system. I did it using Telarc 1812, Dafos and Firebird tracks not at 83db normal SPL but at 97dbs ( at seat position. ) with 109db on peaks and you know something: I can’t detect any vibration/resonance because that air borne. |
Dear @thekong : I can't detect it due to that glorious so low distortions in my today system/room. Yes, I know you can detect it in your system in the same way I detected it in the past, not today ( fortunatelly. ). You need to learn several audio subjects and do several drastic changes in your system/room to approach or even or surpass what I'm living today that you can be sure will improve in the near future. Talk to me when you be " there ". Futile that you continue doing through this thread. You have nothing to help enrich all other people knowledge levels. Stop all those boring posts. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear Raul, The below summary comes from the IEEE, not the "AHEE", your fictional bugaboo. Note the first bullet point under the heading "Transistors-Disadvantages". I don't want to go back and forth with you any longer. You are entitled to your listening preferences, whatever they may be, but you are not entitled to create your own set of facts. Vacuum tubes – Advantages
Vacuum tubes – Disadvantages
Transistors – Advantages
Transistors – Disadvantages
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