There's your answer!
36 responses Add your response
What answer...that it's not worth commenting-on? >;-)
Or that people don't want to argue about the latest greatest digital thing that some dealers are pushing to make gullilble people with Audiophilia Nervosa switch-over and take a huge loss on the latest greatest from last year, then shell-out even more money for small extra benefit, if any?
I know the DAC 6 sounds great, I have heard it. Unfortnately, everything else in the system was very high end and I was not able to isolate any control factors. Too many high end variables. I sincerely wish to know if anyone whose heard the DAC 6 is aware of anything that sounds remotely close to sounding as good. I am not trying to incite arguments.
Remotely close? I am using my Lindemann while my Phillips is being repaired, it is quite good and very satisfying. This is in a very resolving system.
I have heard that the Exemplar moded Denon 2900 is quite good, with some claiming it is better than the Meitner. I have also heard that the Teac DV50 is quite good. I have heard neither.
I have seen some of the postings, and the hype is noteworthy at best. The over-excited chattering and subjective opinions offered will certainly not make my pulse race.
I have heard the EMM gear. I have been to the shows and stores and I've heard a LOT of digital.
What I'm saying is that EMM is not so obviously better than the other very good digital out there, that I will sell what I have now at a huge loss, then pay big bucks to get the EMM. Several people have been swayed by their dealer to do just that....and they'll be sucked-in to doing it again next year.
People should be less gullible and more happy with what they have for a little longer until something obviously better comes along. (or until the manufacturers come-up with another format to make our equipment obsolete and force us into spending more money!!)
Golden Ears, i respect your perspective and opinion.....but.....i beg to differ. my experience with the emmlabs gear has clearly resulted in a conclusion that it takes digital performance (both redbook and sacd) to clear new levels.
it is one thing to listen to different gear in different rooms at shows and try to perceive differences. it is quite another thing to have the candidates in a familiar room and spend time comparing.
the emmlabs gear has passed the gautlet in my room against my previous digital references (the Linn CD-12 and Marantz SA-1) and other recent challengers (Teac DV-50 and others). in every case the emmlabs gear was easily better. i have also spent time in David Robinson's room with the emmlabs and other challengers (fully modded Sony SCD-1 and the Accuphase $30k combo). at shows i have done the comparative room thing with the other competitors and to the degree possible have compared performance.
but the most significant competitor that i have put the emmlabs up against was one that it couldn't come very close to equaling.....my Rockport Sirius III. even though the Rockport was better in pretty much every way the emmlabs has moved closer to the Rockport than any other digital i have heard in many significant ways. for the first time digital fills the soundstage with musical information in a way similar to good vinyl....for the first time the dynamics and energy of good vinyl exist in digital.....for the first time there are textural complexity like good vinyl. those other digital competitors, as good as they sounded.....were not up to this standard (to my ears). ALL other digital misses the overall presence and solidity of the emmlabs......i would put the emmlabs about 1/3rd of the way to the Rockport from other SOTA digital competitors......that is a quantum leap to me.
i am convinced that the emmlabs gear is worthy of the hype.....it has caused me to choose digital on a regular basis when the Rockport is sitting there idle.....i can't imagine a higher compliment for a digital source.
Tbg you are quite clever, but you failed to even remotely answer my question. As for being content with what we own, until something obviously better comes along, is this not subjective? Am I missing something? I do not consider myself, or the people I met who pursue this hobby, all that gullible. I agree with Mike that the Meitner is a huge leap in digital technology. I heard the Meitner at the SF show and was inpressed. However, it is difficult to evaluate the Meitner with so many other components in the system.
Just make sure Bill is not around to switch the digital input on the fly .. JTINN, tireguy, Frank and al .. will remember Montreal .... ever see 7 audiophiles systematically have a heart-attack at the same time ??
The Meitner DAC6 is fundamentally an amazing product.. DAC6 6-channel DSD DAC is pretty much alone on the market .. correct me if I am wrong but not many 6 -Chan DACs of this quality out there .. amazing resolution.. Its XLR only .. (fine with me). I also found it to be very natural and balanced.. As mentioned above, it was hooked up to some great gear .. but.. I heard that great gear before stand-alone .. With the EMM Labs DAC6, there was a new level of grain free cleanness and detail ..
Obviously a must have for Multi Chan music lovers ..(Im not one of them... sorry)..If I ever go digital again, I would definitely look at this unit..
See ya ..Matt
I agree, the DAC6 is the biggest improvement for me as in a major component upgrade. I am also looking forward to hearing it on Kharma Midi Grands with enigma upgrade. I currently have 3.2's with enigma so I'm anxious to hear the difference when they get here.
I've had the Meitner for over a month and to state on an earlier post it has both RCA and XLR.
It seems that whenever i see talk or mention of Emm/Meitner
digital gear,It happens to be the same folks patting them selves on the back.I won't mention names,but one of these individual's is the distributor and the few other's are the ones who payed $10K for the Dac + another grand or so for a modified phillips machine.Why isn't this product out their in real world use,and why such a sophisticated dac,does not have a matching transport?But a modified Phillips which if seperated from the Dac6,Has as much Re-sale value as a Ford Festiva!
Joejr, your skepticism is understandable. yes, when emmlabs/Meitner questions are posed......those that own these units answer. as far as patting ourselves on the back......i think it is more a case of sharing our discovery with the curious. if a person doesn't want to read posts about the emmlabs/Meitner.....just don't click on the post.
i, for one, was skeptical myself......until i heard the emmlabs at David Robinson's home in February......even then i had to get it into my room to compare with my references before i could unconditionally say that it was a new digital standard FOR ME, TO MY EARS.
as far as the transport issue.....your comment is right-on. there is a less-than-ideal situation using the Philips SACD 1000 instead of a purpose built transport. unfortunately, it will be another 3+ months AT LEAST before the new emmlabs transport is ready. the challenge of designing and bringing to market a ground-up digital transport is difficult for a small company like Meitner.
on the other hand, my transport has been flawless and the performance is a revelation. when the music starts i could give a rip that it is a modified Philips. i have no plans to get the new transport when it is ready.....so resale is not an issue for me. even if you add the $2k original investment for the modified Philips to the $5k list price of the new emmlabs transport; $7k is still much less than other top digital transports that can't touch the performance of the emmlabs/Meitner.
so any way you slice it......the performance of the emmlabs/Meitner justifies the investment compared to other SOTA choices (none of which can equal it's performance).
Mikelavigne,I'll have a chance some day to listen,to this new digital standard,and yes i will say that from time to time a new product,is designed and so well engineered that it raises the bar and we all get more enjoyment out of our passion for this hobby!But,MAINLY all of the time is the flavor of the month Brand! Enjoy your system!
Mikelavigne, I have the Audio Note DAC 1.2, which is not an upper level AN DAC, however it has all Black Gate caps, tantalum resistors, solid silver wiring, a custom (internal) HMS Gran Finale IC, AN copper caps on the analogue board, NOS tubes and AN DAC 4 silver wire interface transformers. It has been taken to about as high a level as I am capable of taking it. I don't know how it would compare to the other AN DACs or the Meitner DAC, but since I recently added the AN DAC 4 interface transformers, it now seems phenomenally good.
Have you had any experience with the Audio Note DACs as compared to the Meitner?
Fiddler, I had an AN DAC4.1x Sig. with the new interface transformers. I also had the Zanden 3000 MkII and the Lindemann D680 which I used as a transport. Several friends and I thought it was difficult to choose between the dacs, probably because the philosophies are so alike. Then we used the Lindemann for cds. It was every bit as good as the two dacs. I have since gotten the DAC6 and have enough time break in to learn that its conversion of PCM into DSD makes cds sound better than what we heard on the Lindemann, AN, or Zanden.
Sacds are better yet on the Meitner, but I remain unconvinced as to whether it is better than the Lindemann. I should be able to make this judgment once I get my Phillips back and put some more break in on the Meitner.
Interestingly enough Norm is the only person that I am aware of that has has all the major CD/SACD contenders in his system at one time or another, most recently the Accustic Arts Drive 1, the Lindemann d680 and the Meitner. He has also tried many of the price is no object power cords and AC line filters. The problem with any comparison is that each of these units a well as the AudioNote and Zanden is very sensitive to AC and mechanical vibration. In the case of the Lindemann, the performance is highly dependent on the power cord, AC line filter and vibration control used and can vary greatly depending on these variables. Hopefully Norm will speak to what he has found works optimally for the Meitner and the Lindemann and how they compare in various areas.
I would long ago had much to say except for the fact that the Phillips crashed. It is not covered under warranty by EMM and I an not certain that Phillips knows how to repair them.
The one thing that is positive out of this is that I further appreciate how good and reliable the Lindemann is. I am not suffering much.
"I would long ago had much to say except for the fact that the Phillips crashed. It is not covered under warranty by EMM and I an not certain that Phillips knows how to repair them"
Have you seen the marathon of threads on Audio Asylum's Hi Rez Highway about the problems with the SACD 1000? Apparently someone has figured out what the problem is and how to fix it, as the SACD 1000 posts simply litter that forum to no end.
Could Meitner have possibly picked a worse transport?
I can not attest to its sonics as I have never heard it. And I will not take your last sentence as an affront to my tastes. However I would be hesitant to drop 10k on a digital playback system that has so many widely known problems.
Is it that difficult to modify another transport that is more reliable to work with the Meitner DAC? I really have no idea.
Jposs- I am unaware of
many widely known problemsfor EMM labs gear, the transport has a heat problem with one chip on the transport which has been confirmed at the hi-rez highway, and a fix has been found. As for Emm labs there components have a flawless record in the field. The transport is a SACD1000 which retailed for $2000(I sure hope NO one paid that for it) and then another $1750 for the modification to output SACD digitally- so even at full bore retail its only $3750- which is a far cry from $10k. Emm labs is now aware of this problem, and they have been and still are working on there own transport to work with there DAC's, which is due out late this year early next year. The fix for the current SACD1000's is a piece of cake and most folks can do it themselves, so it really doesn't seem like a problem any more.
Some people drive a civic for it reliablity(sorry for that analogy mike:) other's prefer the performance of a Ferrari, and realize that it may not be as reliable as a civic- but its a risk they feel worth while. And when it comes down to it Ferrari's are pretty darn reliable considering what they are capable of, just like Emm labs. I bet bose would be trouble free for years and years.
Even if the modified transport is only 3750, the dac only works with this transport, or am I mistaken about that? Therefore, if the dac is rendered useless by a flawed transport, you are effectively out 10k.
Your analogy isnt necessarily proper, because they could have used a Corolla engine in their Ferrari that gives fewer problems, with not so dissimilar results.
I can't say that for sure, I have not heard the SACD 1000. However there is not a consensus saying that the Phillips is the ultimate tranpsort for SACD.
It is good to know they are developing their own transport, and I don't know that reliablility was an issue when they chose the Phillips originally. However it does not change the fact that it was a poor choice, whether it was knowingly poor or just shitty luck.
I think Ed Meitner was quite impressed with the Phillips 1000 and the possibility of room to install his conversion board and outputs. He did not know the future of the 1000. I do not think anyone would have expected the failures of the 1000 as I know of no other such instance. I do concede, however, that having bought the DAC6 and experienced a failure of my 1000, I wonder about the wisdom of depending on this transport, even if Alex has found a fix.
I also have a Lindemann which has proven entirely dependable and excellent sounding. In a comparison with the Phillips 1000 before I got my Meitner, I could certainly hear a difference between the units, but could not decide which was superior.
Jposs: You are partially mistaken. Any transport can be used with the EMM Labs DAC 6 or DCC 2, for CD playback, as long as it has a AES/EBU connection. For SACD playback, the modified Philips or EMM Labs soon to be released transport are the only choices.
I think most of those who have purchased the EMM Labs DACs, have done so for it's virtues of CD playback. SACD is the bonus.
I would also still disagree with your terminology of "poor choice" in relationship to the Philips. Sonically, I have not heard a better SACD / CD mechanism. Those who wish to pay for a new mechanism, can do so and will not have the same potential problem. It is not a lot of money in terms of the big picture.
I would love for you to hear the combo. I am sure you will understand why most people, even with the knowledge of the existing problems with the drive are continuing to purchase and request the modification.
Tireguy is correct with regards to the original pricing of the Philips, but most of those who have purchased the player for modification have not paid more than $600 (player)plus the $1050 (modification). The new price for modification is $1400 which automatically includes the new mechanism and comes with an EMM Labs warranty. There is no profit in the new pricing and as a matter of fact, it is more of a loss than anything else as there is more labor involved.
Tbg: The break-in period for the DAC and transport is around 400 - 500 hours. They go through a lot of changes and I am sure you will be very surprised at the difference between what you heard in the short time you were able to listen and once it is broken in. Some have reported a horribly bright, etched and closed sound at first and nirvanna after continued use.