Is this video of an LP12 suspension accurate ?
Its ok to have an ET2 on a suspended table if ....the suspension is firm enough. As is the case with my turntable which is air , pneumatic - suspended.
We are dealing with a lateral moving mass.
I have never owned an LP12, I remember seeing them in Audio Stores, but never with with ET2's;
I am curious. Get something that weighs a little more than (.9 lbs - 405 grams). Like a can of soup or beans. Place it on the table approximately where you want the mounting hole to go, and see what happens to the "leveling" of the table. Please let us know what happens if you try this.
Also if you post on the ET2 thread
You may get more responses, and maybe from someone that has direct experience. .
what is your personal experience with the ET2 ?
@ct0517 My personal experience, lol.
you ask this question as if it is a challenge.
Funny how this this kind of attitude is fairly prevalent these days on forums....what’s with this attitude?
since you asked, my experience with this set up is extensive, firstly I have a friend who owns this exact set up, he enjoys it immensely. Secondly, this exact set up was utilized at the audio store Stereo Design for years back in the day, where I heard it on several occasions. To top that, I own a LP12 Radikal D with a well tempered black arm, this arm was ‘AB’ ed against the ET 2 before purchase. I slightly preferred the Well tempered...and I totally prefer the ease of set up and not having to concern myself about leaky air hoses etc.
i could ask you the same question...what’s your experience with the combo of ET2 and Linn, but that might be very presumptive of me...no??
Your first post.
I don't understand how a product that is a pain to maintain and keep set up, can be referenced as part of a "tried and true combo"
Tried and True combo
My definition of tried and true ..once set up, it works as designed, and the person never has to fiddle with it again. I haven't touched my turntable setup in probably two - three years ? at least.
you ask this question as if it is a challenge.
Based on the video I linked showing the LP12 suspension, IMO, it's going to be a challenge, and it's going to take a certain type of personality to do this setup, and keep it in check.
i could ask you the same question...what’s your experience with the combo of ET2 and Linn, but that might be very presumptive of me...no??
I stated in my previous post I never owned a Linn LP12.
I am here to share information, learn, have some fun, and try to make it through this final bit of winter.
If the Linn Platter represents a clock face - at what hour position was the ET2 mounted ?
@ct0517 The fact that you may not like the idea of mounting an arm that needed constant tweaking and maintenance doesn’t NOT make it tried and true! This combo was utilized extensively back when the ET2 arm was popular, and as I stated...it worked well from a SQ perspective. That fact makes it tried and true.
The OP asked about what people thought about the combo...clearly someone had told him that the combo could work...and so he wanted feedback on it.
You ask what were the mounting options....if I remember correctly all of the arms were mounted such that the base was at the rear of the arm board and the arm(bearing rail) extended across the back of the table...not in the traditional manner, wherein the arm extended towards the front ( although in this way, the actual arm of the ET2 did extend towards the front of the table....like all other arm mounts.). This arrangement allowed the arm to transverse across the platter from the right to the left...and it worked well.
Since you don’t own a Linn, can we come to the conclusion that you actually have very minimal experience with it and are just here conjecturing opinions, based on no real understanding or experience!
When you thinks of an ET arm you immediately think of a non-suspended table, but on reflection, I remember hearing and seeing a lot of Oracle owners using the ET arm on their 3-pillar suspended tables, therefore, why not a Linn. My questions to the OP, why the ET when there are a number of well regarded arms (simpler and less finicky) that work very well with the LP12.
If someone handed me an LP12 today and said put an ET2 on it, this is what I would do first as a test - and it doesn't take a lot of effort. This is a quick 5 minute analysis - excuse any grammar, etc...
1) Level the LP12 plinth/platter without any tonearm.
2) Place the ET2 mounting plate over the existing tonearm hole. Establish height - use a holed wood shim if extra height is needed.
3) Acquire from the bolts place/home depot ; a longer bolt, nut, washer, and also a larger diameter flat stainless steel washer.
The Flat washer should be big enough to cover the existing hole from underneath.
4)Place the ET2 mounting plate over the hole. Insert the longer bolt down through the mounting plate and fasten it from underneath with the flat washer and nut. Level the mounting plate with its spikes. The tonearm is ready to be mounted.
5)Mount the ET2 tonearm and measure (A) how far off the plinth has moved from previous level if at all.
6)Re-level the plinth if needed, turn on the air and level the tonearm using only the air bearing (no movement) as a level. Not a bubble level.
7)Place the tonearm air bearing spindle at what is the beginning of the record position. (B) Measure the level at this position.
8) Move the air bearing spindle to the end of the record position. (C) Measure the Level again at this position.
This has me curious, so I am interested in your measurement findings at - A - B - C, to find out if the air bearing spindle's weight, as it traverses across produces any deflection. Either here, or on the ET2 owners thread.
Brooks Berdan may have mounted more ET arms on turntables than anyone else in the world. His original choice for the arm was the Oracle Delphi, for which he created a mod eventually incorporated into the table by Oracle itself (a round block of stainless steel added onto the bottom of the floating subchassis at a specific location, to make its’ mass perfectly distributed and therefore more dynamically balanced. Brooks had training in and knowledge of the design of race car suspensions).
He added the VPI HW-19 when that table was introduced, and found its stiffer-suspension (and to a lesser degree its higher-mass floating subchassis) to provide a more stable platform for the unusual moving mass of the ET. The reason for that is that the center of the arms mass changes location as the arm moves across the LP more than does that of most non-linear arms (the exception being very high mass arms of that sort); a table with a softer suspension can have it’s floating subchassis become slightly out-of-level, while a stiffer suspension will be less effected by the changing location of the arms mass.
Of course, a table with no "normal" suspension (metal springs, air---the Townshend Seismic Sink, Sorbothane or Navcom) will be completely unaffected by the moving mass of the ET. Brooks mounted the ET on a lot of VPI TNT’s.
@testpilot Your point about a number of arms working well with the Linn isn't actually correct. Unfortunately the opposite is more accurate..there are few arms that work well with the Linn! The Linn suspension requires an arm that is not only light weight, but also has the wiring to it in such a fashion as that it cannot impact the suspension. Many a great arm won't actually work on the Linn..
The OP happened to ask about an arm ( the ET2) that can work on the table, although I think there are better alternatives available today.
As a 'Linnie', it is my biggest complaint to Linn, that the actual arms that are supplied and available that work with the table...are in fact far less able than the table itself!
IMHO, the basic platform deserves a much better option than the Ekos SE-1, as an example.
The reason I am considering the ET-2 is #1. It is available for a fair price. 2# My initial research led me to beleive that is is a wonderful arm and comparable to the best. #3. I like the fact that it is inusual.
My tech and I will be mounting it. I am confident he is very capable of doing the job correctly. Do I absoulutely have to have this arm? No. Set up correctly I am hoping this will be a reference table combo that I can hang out with for a long time.
Thanks to all of you for your wealth of knowledge. It will definite help when the installation process begins. I will be forwarding the info on to my tech.
pkvintage, the ET2 is a fabulous arm. I have owned it for well over twenty years and have done a great deal of tweaking and experimenting with it. I cannot stress enough what an invaluable resource Chris (ct0517) and his thread are for setup/maintenance info both inside and outside the box. I strongly encourage you to take any of his suggestions very seriously. The logic in his approach to this arm is matched only by his ability to choose his battles and to stay cool under fire 😊. Good luck.
Yeah @slaw, the HW-19's subchassis really needs to be removed from the surrounding base. I'm getting some Townshend Seismic Pods to put under the subchassis of my Mk.3 (with Aries 1/TNT-4 platter and bearing), the stock spring suspension removed. The base and its attached dust cover will then merely surround the subchassis, the Pods theoretically completely isolating the two from each other.
FYI - Comments received back from Bruce Thigpen - summarized below.
testpilot - I believe your question is answered as well in regards to the Oracle versus Linn setups.
Linn LP12 setup with ET2
I interpret this as a few have tried, done it. They need to be very, very good in setup. The "not ideal" comment brings the obvious question of .....how really stable is it? For myself, a turntable setup that loses its settings, is of little value to me personally. I don't have patience for downtime with my music as its a form of fix for me.
I then asked Bruce if it is not best to mount the ET2 in the back corner 1pm position where the pivot arm is mounted by design.
This is probably the best strategy, the Linn, which is an
pkvintage - as Bruce did not do the level measurements that I mentioned in my previous post, I am still interested in them.
What ET version do you have ?
We don't know which version of ET you have 2.0 or 2.5 and what options you are using? As you know it comes with different armtubes which are different weights (mass), materials, based on the cartridge you are using - MM or MC. I would definitely ensure you are using Bruce' newer longer I beam which reduces the counter weights requirements by half. Advanced setups of the ET tonearm, Set up the tonearm first without its wiring - nice and level. The wiring is added after in a single shot to the preamp/phono. The design permits this. This setup takes sonics to another level.
The setup advantage this has - is that it allows one to see how much pull/push the wiring is having. For the Linn LP12, this last step is very important due to the sensitive suspension. The ET2 has the slickest, slippery, smooth air bearing (you can witness this by just holding the manifold housing in your hand (not mounted), insert the air bearing spindle - turn on the air. What you will experience is nothing short of audio magic.
Now join a sensitive air bearing to a sensitive suspension ......what is the result ? I do recall reading on multiple occasions of how owners LP12 suspensions went "out" and or needed a Linn TT expert to fix their suspension.
The Audiophile Hobby (AH) begat ............Audiophile Nervosa (AN)...........AN when dealing with sensitive products which require careful setup can begat ............Audiophile Anxiety (AA).
My two 24 years old bring me enough anxiety. 8^0
Daveyf - Cats are attracted to air lines - can produce leaky hoses. We added an F3 Savannah cat, and although I love her and her antics I do fear for my gear.
It is obvious to me now that Linn LP12 owners - Linnies as has been referenced here - are a very passionate bunch.
sorry for the long post.
Frogman - your comments are appreciated.
Yup @slaw, in fact I also picked up an Aries 1, which incorporates a lot of improvements over the HW-19. Separate heavy motor pod, no suspension (an ideal candidate for the Townshend Pods---in the works), 2" thick MDF chassis with a layer of steel bonded to its bottom, much better platter, no surrounding base and dustcover to resonate. I’m thinking of setting up the 19 for mono LP’s, many of which have mediocre sonics anyway (1960’s Kinks, Yardbirds, Beach Boys, 1950's Blues and Rockabilly, etc.). The Aries I got specifically for the Terminator arm, and my Townshend Rock Elite has an arm perfect for it, the Zeta.
Well after all the discussion I have decided against the ET2 and went with the Audio Note arm1. Easy install, no maintenance and works great with with the Linn LP12 and my Denon 103 MC cartrige.
Thank you to all that took the time to reply. There were many very descriptive posts that I leaned a great deal from.
I am sure this arm will serve me well.
What is the effective mass of the AudioNote Arm1? DL103 likes a VERY high effective mass; there’s almost no practical limit to how high as against almost any other cartridge I know about. Which is to say the compliance of the DL103 is VERY low. During this back and forth about the ET2, I was wondering more how the DL103 would work with the ET2 than I was about the ET2/Linn combo.
Lewm, et al
Bruce Thigpen has done extensive resonant frequency testing and offers different armwands, I beam setups, to best match up to the cartridge that someone is using. As MC carts became more popular Bruce introduced the larger 2.5 version manifold/air bearing spindle which is better suited to low compliance MC's.
The Vinyl Issue as we know it.
There can be a 3 - 6 db output increase at the specific resonant frequency for any specific tonearm/cartridge marriage. If this resonance happens in the music range that we hear above 20 hz, it can result in well ...lets call it too much bass - a tubby sound. If the tonearm/cartridge resonant frequency happens below 5 hz, which is where turntable rumble and record warps live; then the cartridge/arm combo will exaggerate these phenomena i.e. Woofer pumping. So this is why it is important to match the Cartridge and Tonearm resonances, so that together, they resonate above 5hz and below 20 hz.
This link is to a Yellow Sticky on the ET2 thread that contains the cartridge guidelines.
On this thread the OP pkvintage has a Denon DL103
Denon DL103 - 5x10-6cm/dyne (100Hz) Very low compliance. 8.5 gms Its on the medium to heavy side.
Looking at the link it would work best on a Carbon Fiber or Magnesium Armwand, and set up with a double or triple leaf spring on the I beam.
And if given a choice the ET 2.5 version is a better choice.
I suspect, (as we did not hear back from pkvintage yet) that his friend who owns the ET2, has a 2.0 version, with aluminum armwand, and single leaf spring on the I beam. These are the most common and usually the ones that come for sale on auctions. pkvintage - pls correct me if I am wrong.
If this is the case he would need to invest in at least another armwand, and have Bruce send him I Beams with double and triple leaf springs to match up better to the Denon DL103.
If anyone is interested in the actual resonant frequencies of the particular armwands, air bearing spindles, I beam leaf springs, and how they work together, we have this info too, and can discuss it. Maybe ask this on the ET2 thread.
As most experienced audiophiles know, the “theory” does not always jibe with what is heard. In the case of the ET2/Denon 103 combo I can confirm what ct0517 describes. My first experience with the 103(D) was many years ago when I only had the aluminum armwand and before I upgraded to the High Pressure manifold/bearing (not the 2.5). I did have single and double leaf springs. The double leaf spring improved matters significantly. No bloated mid bass and diffuse images compared to the single leaf spring; and, somewhat surprisingly, an annoying band of unnatural brightness in the lower highs. Upgrading to the high pressure manifold/bearing improved matters significantly with greatly improved clarity and linearity and perceived “speed”. The magnesium arm wand was the icing on the cake and finally showed, for me, what all the fuss re the 103 was about. No Monster SG2000 (my favorite on the ET2), but very nice in a “vintage” kind of way. A gross generalization to be sure, but a sound reminiscent of classic tube gear.
It’s been decades since I have seen any version of an ET tonearm in the flesh, so the talk about leaf springs etc. leaves me in the dark. However, thanks CT and everyone else for clarifying the issue. So clearly there is an issue mating a DL 103 to the ET tonearm, but it can be overcome with the proper selection of arm wands and Accoutrements. Something for the OP to consider, if he were going to go ahead with the ET/DL103 combination. But it appears he has decided not to. Now he only has to consider the effective mass of the Audionote tonearm arm that he has selected.
Well after all the discussion I have decided against the ET2 and went with the Audio Note arm1. Easy install, no maintenance and works great with with the Linn LP12 and my Denon 103 MC cartrige.Thank you to all that took the time to reply. There were many very descriptive posts that I leaned a great deal from.
I am sure this arm will serve me well
Good call pkvintage. Enjoy the Music.
For the benefit of the readers, here is a picture of the heavier Mag arm wand that would work best with that Denon cart.
If I was in audiophile mode, I would be almost tempted to find an LP12 and try it to find out what happens.
I know you're a car guy Lewm from previous posts, and I don't know if you remember me posting about the Guild car garage, a 10 minute drive from me, who have a show called Restoration Garage on the History Channel? Anyway.
Lets imagine a vehicle with a single leaf spring suspension in the back. Now Imagine if we hung that leaf spring and wacked it with a mallet. Now weld another leaf spring onto it - becomes a double leaf spring, more rigid, capable of holding more weight, and if we wacked it again, its tone would be higher. A higher resonant frequency.
Now for the ET2 tonearm no different except the leaf spring/s are obviously very small and fit at the junction of where the I beam joins the end cap, and they flex -----------> Sideways, instead of Vertically like in a vehicle.
The other significant thing about the ET2 leaf spring design, is that it isolates the counterweights mass on the I Beam, from cartridge cantilever.The cantilever doesn't see the sideways weight on the I Beam. This is very significant compared to other linear trackers in regards to cartridge wear. This phenomena can best be seen / demonstrated by putting a heavy cartridge on, and using an out of round record, with a single leaf spring I Beam. The Single Leaf Spring I Beam holding the counterweights, will be seen cushioning like a shock absorber.
Ct, I am very familiar with the TV show. Still, I am a visual learner, and I would have to see the leaf springs on an ET tonearm, in order to appreciate what you are trying to say in words. My life will be just fine if that never happens. Where is the Guild, anyway? Is it in Toronto? Somewhere in Canada, I think.
As you probably also know, leaf springs as automobile suspensions are very old-fashioned. I don’t think there have been too many leafsprung automobiles made since the 1950s. Maybe excepting the rear suspensions of some American cars, trucks, jeeps,etc..
ok - A picture is worth a thousand words.
I don’t think there have been too many leafsprung automobiles made since the 1950s.
Hmmmm.....so then, doesn't the automotive leaf spring technology match up well to the record / LP - technologies ? 8^0
fwiw - I use a 2018 Toyota Tundra - Built in your Lone Star State - for trailering my 993, boats and performing cottage work. It has leaf springs. I can't imagine being without them. so Horses for Courses.
Just to confirm the analogy I used focused on - if you make a spring firmer (more rigid) in any industry, field, timeframe - its resonance goes up.
.....and this playing of records being a resonance and vibration hobby.
Lewm - the Guild is an hour north of Toronto