Eminent Technology ET-2 Tonearm Owners
Thekong Thekong – look forward to your impressions of the ET 2.5. Do you know what table it will be going on? I came across this pic in this other thread. Is this still your setup ? http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1301061425&openflup&16&4#16 Very nice - btw Cheers |
Richard/Dover - Do either of you play flute? |
Hi Thekong During the testing phase, my ET2.5 will be set up with a ClearAudio Sigma. Look forward to your observations. Based on their specs for compliance and weight with similar spec carts I own, I have had really good experiences with the double leaf spring I beam. It would be very easy to compare your custom counterweight later on to the decoupled counterweight. If you contact Bruce he can send you a couple empty I beams with 5 loose leaf springs that you can glue in yourself to make a double and triple I beam. The beams cost about 10 or 15 dollars. Three are shown in this pic. single, double and triple The double in the middle does not have the extra weight on it so looks thinner. The one I am holding is a triple and it makes the I Beam very rigid. Will use it with the heavy, low compliance XV1. I posted this earlier somewhere from Bruce on his opinion of the different I Beams. With respect to the i-beams, this is correct: a stiffer (lower compliance) I Beam works better with a lower compliance cartridge. Cheers Chris |
Some impressions – First Some text from Richards very interesting post of 03/14/13 http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1325551242&openflup&527&4#527 For input frequencies that are 300% of the resonant frequency we get transmissibility of around 15%, unless the structure is highly damped and we all agree, I think, that lots of damping doesn't sound good. Now Page 9 of the ET2 manual. Adjustable Effective Mass Well it looks like Bruce studies this and note the text in upper case. ------------------------------------------------------ MY IMPRESSIONS ET 2.5 at 19 PSI. Use of a Time Aridyne Medical Pump which produces very little resonance at the source. (I don't dare say "never" on this thread :^) ....just joking....not http://www.alliedhpi.com/images/zs168-263-002.pdf It dumps moisture at the pump down a tube just like a cars AC unit. Have never seen a drop in the second regulator in my room – except for that incident where the pump outlet clogged (minerals in moisture) and sent moisture down the line. My room water trap bulb was half full before I noticed it ! Test Cartridge Benz Micro MC3 Soundsmith Ruby Retip. 15 x 10 – 6cm/dyne (1.6 - 2.2 vtf) (weight 7.2 gms) Used at 1.8 gms wide open at 47 k and loaded at 100. My wiring is unshielded http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1332259084.jpg With the preamp inputs about two feet away from the ET2.5. I have been listening to this cartridge for a few months now with a double leaf spring. Very enjoyable. I inserted the triple leaf spring which effectively for any anyone that has tried this, turns the counterweight into a rigid one – imo. No movement at all. Defeats the decoupling. Bass performance changed with the triple leaf spring in my room with the 801 monitors. Lets understand this is relatively speaking as the 801 have prodigious bass. But the effect of the leaf spring versus no leaf spring was noticeable in the ears with the sound compression in the room and this (15 x 10 (– 6)cm/dyne) cartridge. Bass performance was not as good with the triple leaf spring with this specific cartridge in MY room. So I believe what I heard supports what is in the ET2 manual. Maybe I will have different results with the even lower compliance XV1 soon ? It may sound better with the triple leaf spring. This will have to wait as I have amps arriving this week. Its easy to swap out Leaf springs. I am not going to hurry with the XV1 - for those aware of its history with me. Guys - I have made a promise to myself not to email or contact Bruce anymore with questions until first reading the manual. It really is like having his knowledge in your back pocket. Hi Thekong – do not know what speakers you are using but the above impressions, further support the reason I recommended the double leaf spring with your test cartridges based solely on their specs. Cheers |
Hi Thekong Lead is also banned in Canada. Based on the shape and size of the ET2 counterweights here is an easy DIY alternative. Go to any tire shop and pick up a couple of the lead weights that they use on wheel rims. They are of substantial size. They are easily snipped and the hole drilled to make any size weight you need. To get the nice square look as BT’s take them to a machine shop. Otherwise you could be up and running in the same day with the lead. Nice speakers btw ! I am glad we have distance and a lot of water separating us otherwise I would be tempted to come over and ask to borrow them for a while. Some more impressions. The lead weight reminded me of something. I “experimented” with a form of higher mass quite a while ago but only at the counterweight end. I had at the time email conversations with a couple of high profile Audigon members who were in this "lets add more weight to the counterweight camp” with their past experiences with the ET2 and ET 2.5. I really hope they see this post. I added more weight to the counter weight end and tried to get as close to the spindle as I could. I found the sound seemed to get “bigger” each time I did it. It was addicting. I also did not have my Studer at the time for a reference point in my room for the sound. I made extra lead weights sourced from the tire shop I referenced above. The horizontal mass of the arm may not have been seeing “some” of this extra weight as it was decoupled, but the air bearing spindle itself was. I talked to Bruce about this. Now lets imagine that he has heard every story you can probably think of in the last 20 + years from tweakers, hot rodders and experimenters of his tonearm. He was very clear to me. Try it and see... So he encouraged me and said at some point I would affect the balance of the spindle, the air would not be able to sustain the spindle weight properly, and rumble would occur. something like that. I never got as far as actual rumble occurring and then the light came on for me. The ET2 counterweight ” I” Beam is the most misunderstood part of this tonearm and the EASIEST to screw up. The ET2 arm comes with a set of lead weights along with a range described in the manual of the minimum and maximum cartridge weight they can counter. This range can be modified btw - but thats another discussion. How many of you have thought to yourselves, I don’t want to lose them. So lets put them all on the counterweight. Who hasn’t done this when you first started out with the ET2 ? How many have even done it with a light MM cartridge? NOW the really big question - imo. How many Michael Fremer types (professional reviewers) have done the above - used all the weights when they were not needed ? Has anyone ever read an ET2 review where a description of the weights (how many used/positioning on the I beam was actually described. There positioning is as critical to the sound as the fine tuning adjustments made to the cartridge itself. Very sensitive. Without the knowledge about this .. Well as noted in the previous posts from Dover the manual doesn’t say add extra weights like I was doing in the experiment. It says it is preferable to get as far out on the beam as you can. This implies less weight on the I beam itself as its intent is to be decoupled. Think about it – the weight is on a leaf spring. ITS A HORIZONTAL VERSION OF A CAR/TRUCK LEAF SPRING . Get that in your head and your home free with this tonearm – IMO. So this Iight came on for me around the first couple of pages on this thread. Someone that calls himself Frogman reminded me. Btw – I thought this person that calls himself Frogman was a scientist that spent his time where its wet; looking for Frogs. Monikers being what they are. Boy was I wrong ! Re-applying less weight further out on the beam; the tuneful bottom end returned with more speed and coherence. Similar wording to one of Dovers previous posts. ********************************************************* Warning - The above post about adding "mass to the counterweight" does not relate to the mass spindle dampening being discussed. Persons reading this thread do so at their own risk. ********************************************************* |
Well I am not sure what to say now. I gotta admit that the folks from down under and specifically NZ, are not a subtle group by any means. You all seem to be in close proximity to one another? Can you by chance hear each others stereos when you turn them up ? BTW – Does Canadian Shania Twain still live in NZ ? I always had a crush on her. Richardkrebs Chris, ************************************************************ Page 49 of the ET2 manual. LOW FREQUENCY RESONANCE MEASUREMENTS The curve below shows the typical response for the vertical resonance of the the tonearm. This was done with a medium-high compliance cartridge (30 x 10-6 cm/dyne) with a mass of 7 grams and two counterweights 15g + 15g. This counterweight combination gives a vertical effective mass for the tonearm of about 12 grams, which results in a resonant frequency of 6 hz (measured). Horizontally the resonant frequency will be much lower because of the tonearms higher mass (30grams). The horizontal resonant frequency is damped by the decoupling spring and is very well controlled. ************************************************************ Actual measurements and graphs for the above are also shown on page 49. Thoughts on the above ? At this rate we will probably have the whole ET2 manual on the thread by Christmas? My personal take on this as an amateur hobbyist. Bruce makes a lot of sense and has done the analysis and measurements to back it up. The ultimate test is "hearing is believing". My reference point for sound in my room is 15 IPS master tape dub. Both the MM 420str and MC Benc Micro that I discussed earlier play beautifully on my ET 2.5 with the CF armtube. I have the MM 420str on the ET 2.0 right now with aluminum armtube / other room and it sounds great there too. Each of us have different gear and rooms. We need to experiment with the different leaf springs to see what sounds best to us. But it is very obvious and clear to me that we should be trying to get *** AS FAR OUT ON THE I BEAM AS POSSIBLE - THIS IMPLIES THE LEAST AMOUNT OF WEIGHT ******* I haven’t tried a rigid counterweight with damping. If anyone would like to volunteer up a DL103 or similar low compliance cartridge I can give it a longer term try on the ET 2.0. If a good cheap DL103 pops up on the classified I can try to snap it up. I don't have a problem experimenting. Time permitting. Cheers |
Hi Dover- ... interesting post. thanks Wikipedia is ok ...Youtube can be effective too? I hate theory so the animation helps me alot; another reason I like posters here on the forum that talk to their direct experiences - not what if this or that. I am no physicist and I am bad at math to boot. I hate formulae. Btw – I have found myself the easiest what to find out about physics is to partake in a “hobby” that can kill you if you slip up. You learn really quick. Ever track a car ......around an oval track that kind of sort of resembles an lp ? |
Richard - re your last post. .....So with reference to a rigid or sprung counterweight beam, it is probably an all or nothing event. In other words because we have the "potential" interaction of the swing frequency of the beam and the resonant frequency of the arm assembly, depending on the number of leaves and the number of lead weights used. It could be that tuning here with springs and weights (and their position) is at least partly to do with sorting this possible frequency interaction rather than just the weight or stiffness employed. Others may have already thought of this but, it is just an idea to put out there for comment. Would not the rigid solution and the all or nothing event - be only applicable to a one cartridge guy and the specific cartridge cantilever needing to be – really stiff ? As an end user I feel with the sprung counterweight it allows me to use all of my cartridges. Just a thought. Also In your custom ET2 setup – are you able to use higher compliance cartridges if you remove the lead from the spindle ? or are there other factors like a custom manifold involved ? that keep you from using higher compliance cartridges – sonic preferences aside for the moment ? Cheers |
Richardkrebs Richard - from what I have learned about you, IMO you are one of the few in this hobby that can build and repair your own amps, preamps and TT’s, etc... Fair statement? As an amateur hobbyist I have my ears and memories of trial and error experiences. I agree with you that the actions and reactions that are happening are more predictable to a degree with some knowledge gained. I also agree that none of us have sufficient understanding. If anyone really did word would get around, and there would be a long audiophile line up at the persons door asking for help. Now consider this perspective. I refer to the Quad 57 speaker again just as an example. I have tried multiple amps with them (SS and Tube) out of curiosity; then one day after more research I discovered that Roger Modjeski designed his RM 10 amplifier around their specific needs. I already had his larger RM9 amp which I tried with them briefly, but was concerned about damaging them. Anyway cutting to the result - I now power them with an RM10 and could not be happier. So what I think I have based on what I hear is an amp whose outputs meet the specific needs of this unique speaker. There is a harmony and effortless sound that can be heard. Now consider this. I have placed these 57’s in 4 different rooms with identical gear in front of the Rm10 amp and the 57’s. One room had hardwood floors, one was tiled, 2 were carpeted. Some rooms had drapes, other s only drywall and some pictures. One had wood panelling on one side. Their dimensions all varied and two of them opened up into other rooms. Four different music perspectives resulted in the sounds as far as the music presentation goes. This was all with the same CD player. Now add in vinyl with all its variables to the mix...... The stereo system is a slave to the space/room -imo. Just to be clear here to the readers regarding my impressions I have given. We have been discussing refinements and tweaking for the ET2. In the last 10 years I have owned an ET2 and then added a ET 2.5. In stock form as designed – out of the box this tonearm remains my reference. And fwiw - The greatest sonic bump with the ET2 came for me, when I introduced air delivery with no (very little) resonance (at the pump) and 19 psi was achieved. The ET2 tonearm setup so far for me has been 40% actual tonearm setup fine tuning, and 60% air delivery tweaking. I am sure with the continued info from this thread it will become 50 – 50 soon. Cheers |
Frogman/theKong, others – regarding lowering the position of the lead weights. Based on my own experiences, positioning the lead to be lower is not something imo, that any ET2, ET 2.5 owner is going to do naturally or instinctively. The reason being it is not as ergonomic. When you try it you will see it is easy to touch/scrap the plinth/armboard with the end of the I Beam, when you lift the arm at the end of a record. That is, if you have developed a habit like I have, of lifting the arm tube higher than required in protection of the stylus. This was an easy habit to break. I talked to Bruce about it and he said multiple parameters get changed when doing this and that in general he's for an adjustment that results in an increase in VTF requiring the lead being moved further out on the I Beam. But we need to try it out in our rooms/gear. Look forward to both of your impressions when you get a chance to try it. I’ve had two positive listening sessions with now. Cheers |
Dover...your diligent follow up with Bruce Thigpen is much appreciated Dover you’re welcome. I like to publish information for thought especially when it comes from a Subject Matter Expert (SME). Someone who by the way takes an interest in our activities and findings, and continues to experiment on his own. The info was not meant however to trigger any type of civil unrest with the NZ audio club. Fwiw - I have heard many stories of civil unrest from my Grandma and parents. In Canada I have seen civil unrest twice when Quebec decided to separate. Democracy prevailed. If democratic polls were held today I am not sure but I think the vote would be 2 – 2 or 3 – 1 against you. Good thing this is a hobby ? |
Thanks for that info Thekong and Dover. Thekong – something doesn’t look right to me with that Sirius III pic ? Looking at the air tube wiring – how does that tonearm get past the 2nd track? Isn’t the air tube pushing back at the arm as it makes its way across ? Is there that much friction in the slider to not be affected? If that was an ET2 just the wires alone in that position would cause it not to work. Sorry for all the questions. Definitely a very different design. Thanks for the pics. So the air that comes into the arm is going into to a smaller diameter air tube. This is compressing the air and I assume making higher pressure. Cheers |
ET2 ET2.5 - Aluminum Gooseneck Update Just a reminder on this initiative. I will post a reminder once more in a couple of months. I have received some replies and we have four people so far who are interested in aluminum goosenecks. One size fits the ET2 and ET 2.5. This would replace the current carbon fibre part that joins the armtube to the spindle with an aluminum one. If enough people are interested we can get Bruce to do a special run of them. The price would be based on the number of people interested. If interested please contact me at bcpguy(at)bell(dot)net for details I am not affiliated with this other than wanting one myself. I am one of the four people so far. Cheers |
Richardkrebs The best statement I have read yet from someone that has not tried them. A refreshingly honest answer. Thanks Richard. Anyone the least bit curious about them can check out the Copernican thread. Some "robust debate" there. Cheers |
The audigon thread ghosts of the past seem to be hitting the ET2 thread. Came across this over coffee this morning. A custom x- Maplenoll Athena setup with an ET1 modded. No affiliation with the person or ad. Just thought you guys would find it interesting. http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649054055-deconstrata_x_maplenoll_athena/ |
Double posts and thread ghosts of the past. How does that happen? My theory - Its all about those damn 0’s and 1’s. Problems arise when you try to merge an old system of 0’s and 1’s, with a newer system of 0’s and 1’s. A few 0’s and 1’s get misplaced, duplicated sometimes. Richard - thats nice to hear about your sons and their friends wanting to spin records. I have been waiting patiently with my 2. I have hoarded enough gear to make systems for both plus my wife if she wants to spin Motown nonstop in another room somewhere. I have almost lost all hope and am considering a large 2013 Spring Sale to cash in and spend the money on myself and pay for recent purchases. |
I have converted. To an out “e” from and in “e” The attached pic shows my temp setup before/after - along with the lowered lead weights as well. http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1365100316.jpg The pic is at a bit of angle and not horizontal. It’s a subtle change with the lead weights in the positioning but musically very evident in my room. I increased the VTF by doing this and had to move the weights back. I also had the wiring off the armtube totally and it sounded good but I felt it was an incident waiting to happen with me personally. Especially with those Downunder wines. I did a crude braid on the wiring in the photo only to the end of the armtube. They are then separated. They affect the arm less this way. I knew there were two things for sure in life I was no good at. Tying a tie and making a smooth bed. Now I know there are three. Making a nice braid. Will ask my daughter for help with the braiding when she comes home from university. My wife is just shaking her head. She has learned to stay 6 feet away from the turntable at all times. Fwiw – From my own personal experiences a happy face loop works better than an upside down one for ET2, ET 2.5 as they are designed to be free and IMO it has less effect on the tonearm. The upside down loops I have used all forced me to use more rigid materials for support and affected arm movement. One example of this with me. http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1325532980.jpg The air tube and wiring are part of other air bearing tonearm designs for damping as we have learned here. Choose your own poison. I also position my preamp higher than the wires right next to them so there is a natural happy face loop going to it. Cheers |
John47 Thanks for the recommendation John ! Guys - I will reveal the answer to the trivia questions tomorrow morning. Any guesses ? Dover - you probably know the answer as you were a dealer/distributor - don't give the answer away. Cheers |
04-10-13: Frogman Frogman - Thanks for participating in the ET1/ET2 trivia question! Any more guesses before the answers are revealed ? |
A hint to the ET1/ET2 trivia questions. The answers can be found within here but only for a few more days. |
eliminate the competition, I always say :-) Frogman - remind me never to enter a sports competition against you. I could get hurt. Well curiosity killed the cat - my intentions were good. I figured put in a decent bid; win that auction for the ET2 reports; scan them and make the info available here. So as the ebay clock winded down I strategically waited to make my move. Nothing gets my heart pounding like an ebay bid. 59 seconds left I put in my bid and received the message back - No shipping to Canada !! sigh.... I will ask Bruce about the date - a little later. I am lying low with him for a bit - he has received so many emails from me. Cheers |
04-16-13: Richardkrebs Bruce has confirmed same cart parameters were used. Dover Dover – I agree with you and the key for me is “any” No limitation on the cartridge –imo. So far anyway. imo - Someone just getting into analog with an ET2 doesn’t have this tuning knowledge to start with. It is gear and room specific so takes time to acquire. Looking back now I think I got to about - 6 out of 10 in the beginning; years ago and thought it sounded great. I thought I had it running good – but I didn't understand. The rest comes with experience; Experience comes with time, time in listening to it in your own room and tuning it with your own gear. I believe if had this thread 10 years ago I could have fast-tracked. But then I would have missed out on some fun. |
Ok I think my eyes are doing funny things. I admit I saw and read a couple posts now in the last couple of weeks here - only to see them disappear? I have heard similar things about this phenomena on the MM thread. But there the posts never made it. I know we are all big boys here and can handle whatever controversial topic comes up but maybe we have reached tolerance levels with the moderator? I think we still can have robust debate. Maybe we just need to be a little careful with some of the words we use. Just a thought. Or maybe it is my eyes and I should switch to South African wines from Australian for a while? Good thing this hobby is based on hear and feel. Cheers |
Richard Krebs Thanks for this info Richard. We have always discussed just the spindle HZ resonant numbers before (5-6hz for ET2), and (2-3 for ET 2.5). As you point out this is just part of the equation. Understanding how they interact with the other “parts” in coming to an overall horizontal 4.7 and 4.2 for ET 2 and 2.5 is interesting using a 30 cu cartridge. But we need to remember even if we all use the same 30cu cartridge, the numbers will be slightly different for each of us. We use different cartridge screws, #’s of lead weights, different positioning of the counterweight cap; a little higher, middle or a little lower; and finally the single double and triple leaf spring. Each one of these changes the parameters a little. So like the saying goes trust your ears. The big consideration here for me is how the I Beam is affected. Dover mentioned the 2 – 6 hz variance in the I Beam from Bruce. As soon as you change any variables in the I Beam Hz changes. I also use a larger bolt to hold the lead weights. So for tuning the ET2, ET2.5 Based on my observations/hearing. The tonearm has been designed for the first time user to let the weights fall at their natural location on the I Beam. This is what the manual says. This is how it is setup with most users and those that don’t like to tinker with it; and the sound achieved is very good and musical when setup properly. All the past reviews of the arm are probably based on this setup. The manual does also say to get the lead out to the end of the I beam if possible. For those that like to tune it even more – that is the one of the objectives of this thread. Single, double and triple leaf springs that are not discussed in the manual but Bruce supports as we are still using a decoupled counterweight system. Chris, The thicker spring works better for lower compliance cartridges for me. But it raised the resonance frequency – not good. This is countered by getting the lead to the end. Chris, If the sound is still not right with a double spring in your setup – drop down to the single leaf spring. |
Aluminum Gooseneck on the ET 2.5. A much tighter coupling at the arm tube and at the air bearing spindle inserts. Tight enough that it requires effort to set Azimuth. Eliminates the bolt that joins the carbon fibre armtube insert to the actual carbon fibre joint (Gooseneck). A really good thing not only because of the eliminating a bolt, but because some over tighten it and others not enough. The 3 holes for leveling are gone. Not an issue with me as I always used the middle one. Much tighter overall. I like it ! Going through the cartridges with it. A clearaudio virtuoso SS retip is on there now. Cheers |
RichardkrebsA correction to my earlier post regarding the make up of the ET gooseneck. The ET armtube insert is aluminum as well. The joint itself is Carbon Fibre. Sorry for the error. Both Richard's and Eminent Technology versions can be seen here |
Why your Brain Craves Music A warning up front – the author does not care whether we use a spring or not. And his main music source is Spotify. By Dr. Mercola If you’re a music lover, you already know that turning on the tunes can help calm your nerves, make stress disappear, pump up your energy level during a workout, bring back old memories, as well as prompt countless other emotions too varied to list. Even if you’re not a music aficionado, per se, there are compelling reasons why you may want to become one, which were recently revealed by a series of new research. Music Prompts Numerous Brain Changes Linked to Emotions and Abstract Decision Making When you listen to music, much more is happening in your body than simple auditory processing. Music triggers activity in the nucleus accumbens, a part of your brain that releases the feel-good chemical dopamine and is involved in forming expectations. At the same time, the amygdala, which is involved in processing emotion, and the prefrontal cortex, which makes possible abstract decision-making, are also activated, according to new research published in the journal Science.1 Based on the brain activity in certain regions, especially the nucleus accumbens, captured by an fMRI imager while participants listened to music, the researchers could predict how much money the listeners were willing to spend on previously unheard music. As you might suspect, songs that triggered activity in the emotional and intellectual areas of the brain demanded a higher price. Interestingly, the study’s lead author noted that your brain learns how to predict how different pieces of music will unfold using pattern recognition and prediction, skills that may have been key to our evolutionary progress. Time reported:2 “These predictions are culture-dependent and based on experience: someone raised on rock or Western classical music won’t be able to predict the course of an Indian raga, for example, and vice versa. But if a piece develops in a way that’s both slightly novel and still in line with our brain’s prediction, we tend to like it a lot. And that, says [lead researcher] Salimpoor, ‘is because we’ve made a kind of intellectual conquest.’ Music may, in other words, tap into a brain mechanism that was key to our evolutionary progress. The ability to recognize patterns and generalize from experience, to predict what’s likely to happen in the future — in short, the ability to imagine — is something humans do far better than any other animals. It’s what allowed us (aided by the far less glamorous opposable thumb) to take over the world.” To read more |
Air Bearing Stiffness
Richard - thanks for providing this info - the part that hits home with me. “This is explained by the design of the bearing (it's self centering characteristics) and its extremely high resonant frequency. Many times higher than the audio spectrum. Although the bearing uses air which we know to be compliant, at the frequencies of interest, the bearing medium is stiff.” I usually hear only about audio designers trying to come below the audio spectrum – especially with a TT setup ? That is what the conversations have been based on here as well ? 2hz – 6 or 7 hz. This is truly outside of the box. Dover mentioned somewhere on this thread a while back that testing of the resonances with the ET2 seems to just pass through it ? Dover - was this the same study? Maybe the test gear was not good enough to capture this info. I mean - its parameters setup for human hearing. "Many times higher than the audio spectrum" I guess this explains why my dog does not start howling when I play music. Its beyond him as well. ... Regarding leading note edge performance. My reference in my room are master tape dubs. No issues here with the air bearing. |
Hi Manitunc You can also find the measurements for VPI and SOTA templates in the online ET2 manual - Part two on pages 62 and 63 at the back. Drilling even the one small hole that the ET2 needs, in a nice plinth ranks up there as probably one of the most stressful things I have done in this hobby. If using removable armboards ? I usually make a test one out of some material to practice with. Welcome to the thread. |
Some Gooseneck Impressions in my system/room. First a reference point. You can go listen to a group/band in the same location for two different days. They will sound different for each performance. No performance is the same. They are humans after all not robots. Sometimes you walk away from the performance with a smile on your face a lift in your step. Other days you are neutral; walk away thinking not about the performance but where you are headed next. This could be the result imo - of how your day went or maybe how the day went for those musicians. Did they gel or not ? I like my music to give me a lift, give me a smile. Its a stress reliever. When we add or change gear or tweak our gear it needs to go forward for us. This is a personal thing based on our own preferences. Its doesn’t always go forward as we all know. So. In general a tighter sound and transients faster. More lively. Pace is quicker. The Carbon Fibre (CF) gooseneck sounds a little plusher and velvety in comparison in my system. Bass notes last a little longer with the CF. This in turn depending on your setup can fill in the sound or smear the sound if too much bass – in the later case it makes the music sound slower for me. The aluminum goose neck increases the clearness of the individual bass notes themselves; rather than a note mixing with another I now able to better hear the end of individual bass notes clearer. It was really good before - its just better now for me. A bigger surprise to me. My room monitors were designed to be used in active mode with a Bass Alignment Filter (BAF). This allows the monitors to go down to 20 hz in a room that normally would not allow this much extension due to room constraints. I own a couple version of these BAF’s. This gooseneck tweak is a big enough tweak in my room that it allows me to better differentiate between the BAF’s and their engineering differences. So many ways to tweak our sound from the source to speakers. I am very happy with the sound and even more impressed with the quality of this piece. Cheers |
Dover ....but there are some pivoted arms that can provide musical enjoyment as well. You’re a real funny guy Dover. Did anybody ever tell you that? I did not say I didn’t enjoy my pivot arms. I said they couldn’t go straight.....they need some help. A couple of questions. What make of pump and PSI did you use with your ET2, and did it (the pump) produce resonances and vibrations that forced you to use/build an external surge tank? How long ago was it setup in your room? |
Dover - Andy Payor and Bruce Thigpen both disagree with adding mass. Cant speak for Andy Payor but this is not true with BT. The original ET2 came out when MM’s were popular. When heavier less compliant MC’s became popular. Bruce introduced the heavier 2.5 spindle as well as heavier CF and Magnesium arm wands to deal with MC’s. This has already been discussed here. http://www.eminent-tech.com/magarmtube.html thats an old web link btw - the new price for the mag tube is on Bruce's website under Et 2.5 parts list. A couple of folks here including Frogman and RK have come up with diy solutions. Frogman has used special armtube wrap. RK has added weight to the armtube and spindle. I’m sure others have done other things. Frogman noted as well as BT and myself that the 420str MM seems to gel better with the lighter aluminum armtube. My 420str is now on my ET2. Dover - The Kuzma bearing operates at about 60psi whereas the ET2 bearing operates at a much lower level Well this is not totally true either – other than the everyday ET2 with the original pumps Bruce would also custom build them for any PSI and did. There are many around. My ET2 HP based on the notes that came with it (it was bought used) is a 50 psi manifold model. My ET 2.5 manifold was custom made for 19 psi by Bruce for me based on my requirements. Why 19 psi ? this is covered on the first couple pages of this thread. So there are many ET2’s out there that have manifolds set up for really high pressures. These were custom ordered. If you want to know if you have a high pressure manifold or not. Push it out – inscribed on it will be XHP or HP. The other method is to hook it up to a compressor and start adding in PSI and see what it can take. If it came with a WISA is was meant for 5-7 psi. The original pump was in the 3 3.5 psi range. imo - There are three different areas being discussed here and they really should he kept separate to avoid confusion. 1) Adding weight to the ET2. As mentioned above and in previous pages here Bruce added weight to the spindle and changed the armtubes for MC’s. If Do-it-yourself (DIY) - adding weight to the spindle and armtube. Consideration needs to be given to vertical and horizontal masses. The ratio is important. Its important to remember that the armtube/armwand affects both the vertical and horizontal masses. 2) Decoupled IBeam - The ET2 design is de-coupled. This is a big plus to me right now as it allows me to use any cartridge I want. If you couple it – its no longer an authentic ET2 design. Its your own unique design. Those using it this way seem to have it tailored the setup to one cartridge only? This is their choice. A bigger evil for me than this ....my pivot arms can’t go straight. No one seems to have an issue with this? It’s like spending thousands on a new car...on the drive home I discover it pulls to the right. I call the dealer about the problem. His/her answer to me is to let some air out of the front left tire. :^( Would you accept that? Well - All pivot arm owners including me do. 3) Air bearing stiffness. Leading edge notes. My boogie test is older lps up against Master tape dubs – no issues here for me based on my ears. I’m good. Dover – I am curious to know for fun what your boogie test is? Cheers |
Richard re: damping trough. Thanks for bringing this up. I have completed my game of musical turntables, so I will revisit the damping trough now. It can get messy when moving an ET2 from one TT to the next with a trough of oil attached ! My main TT is completely changed from the last time I used the fluid so will try it again. The fluid that Bruce uses in the trough is 8000 centistoke silicone fluid. I ordered some today from him along with the adhesive. Will post impressions later. Richardkrebs - My apologies in advance if this topic has already been covered in the thread. Too many posts to read thru. Richard - This thread is unfolding like a book. Very relevant ET2 information was discussed early on and throughout. I encourage a read through. If for no other reason than to understand and gain insight into why some members made the decisions they did. Cheers http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1325551242&openflup&67&4#67 |
Thekong - In the later, upgraded, models of the Rockport 6000, i.e. the 7000 and the arm on the Sirius III, AP chose to use heavier armtubes. I believe all 3 arms used the same air-bearing, and their armtube clamping systems are of the same (or very similar) total weight, but the clamping system on the Sirius III are said to be 20 times stiffer due to the improved design. Thekong - thanks for sharing this info. Are you able play high compliance cartridges on your Rockport arm ? We know the heavier ET2 armtube affects the horizontal mass as well. but the clamping system on the Sirius III are said to be 20 times stiffer due to the improved design. I am assuming that this would limit the type of cartridges the Rockport Sirius III tonearm can now play as far as compliance is concerned ? Cheers |
Thekong ....the owner of that Sirius III was complaining on Audiogon that the arm couldn’t track more than 3 cuts into the LP..... Hi Thekong – thx for that info. Well imo whatever it was able to play ...it would have been a subpar performance from the start of the first track anyway from what is capable. Hopefully the wires have since been fixed up. What I don’t get...how does a high profile, statement item like that get into that condition; especially when the wires and also the air tubing in this case represent an Achilles Heel if not set up properly. Not a question per say just a little dis-belief on my part considering the dollars involved. Cheers |
Manitunc – just a note on my last post. If it works its the original ET2 manifold. If it needs a higher pressure to work you have a HP manifold. If we are talking about an older ET2 arm it may need more pressure because of it being dirty. Its a good idea to clean inside the manifold first. Slide out the spindle and use a toothbrush with alcohol and scrub the inside of the manifold. See page 40 of manual. This is an easy enough procedure and highly recommended for anyone buying a used ET2 with no history. Cheers |
Richardkrebs - For a good discussion on this see CT0517's post on 01-12-12 ET2 damping trough Bruce why didn’t you number the pages ?!!! |
Richardkrebs- There is nothing particularly unique about the ET2 bearing. Richard – what is this statement based on? Please note this observation from Thekong who has compared it to the Rockport. 03-13-13: Thekong |
05-19-13: Ha_ha_he_man Alx – Much is covered at the beginning of the thread. Based on my 10 years now with the ET2 and ET2.5. The recently discussed aluminum gooseneck is very nice but it is unique and costs a lot to make (labor wise). A few hundred dollars. I received only a few emails of interest so far. I am willing to pursue reproductions if more interest is shown. The biggest mods in my 10 years with the ET2 and ET2.5 has been the quality pump, wiring loom and the leaf spring mod. For those reading who do not own this tonearm. The ET2 is like a race car. It can be tuned for our rooms/gear which represent the different tracks. For a plug and play audiophile this can represent disaster. A bad nightmare. If you are plug and play and your dealer sets up your cartridge for you or a friend does it – stay away. It must be obvious by now to anyone reading here that if your are using an ET2 or Et2.5; you need to be thinking about what you are doing. If not mistakes will happen; the poor cartridge is always the victim; even though we feel bad ourselves about it. So many adjustments can be made. RichardKrebs Richard your arm started life as an ET 2.0. We have already discussed here how for a really low compliance cartridges the ET 2.5 works best with the double or triple leaf spring. 05-16-13: Dover Congratulations Dover on reacquiring an ET2. Frogman introduced the leaf spring mod to us early on in this thread. One is able tune this tonearm with different leaf springs (single, double, triple) corresponding to the stiffness of the cantilever being used, and the reactions of the resonances in each of our rooms; and to stay within BT’s decoupled design. Based on my direct experience I encourage both Richard and Dover to order some loose leaf springs and a Two I Beams from Bruce to make up a double and triple I-Beam setup. I look forward to impressions of a low compliance cartridge with the double and triple leaf spring. I have already mentioned here I base my vinyl tuning on what I hear with master tape dubs at 15 IPS. I start the LP then 10 seconds later the tape. I toggle between the two. I don’t have any issues with my XV1 when I use the double and triple spring in my room. I believe you can have your cake and eat it too with the double and triple leaf springs and to stay within Bruce’ genius design. Chris, Chris, Cheers |
This is how I test my vinyl setup for Structure Feedback and my ET2 (2.5) Pump for Noise and Vibrations. I am interested to know what techniques others use. I’d like to learn different ways of doing this. TEST FOR STRUCTURE FEEDBACK Some people think that direct sound waves affect our cartridge. Some people put plastic shields around their turntable. If you think that direct air waves really affect your cartridge “trying yelling at your cartridge and see what happens” infamous quote from Audiogon user Halcro. Can you hear yourself through your speakers when you do this? Henry – if you see this I hope you don’t mind me quoting you. My test for structure feedback is to set up the TT on mute and lower the stylus onto the lead in groove. Record not spinning. Unmute the phono and turn to a level that is considered high for your room. Start jumping up and down right beside your TT. Pretend you are dancing with your spouse. Actually invite her/him in and jump together with no music. Just be prepared she may ask you to boogie to real music later as she gets warmed up. If your setup survives this test you should be good to go. TESTING THE PUMP for NOISE and VIBRATIONS. This test should actually be good for any air bearing linear tracker that uses a captured bearing like the ET2 and ET 2.5. No jumping this time just listening. Same as the above in regards to muting your phono with a still record and unmuting but with a BIG difference. 1st – DO NOT turn on your pump and lower your stylus onto the lead in groove. Unmute and turn the volume up. Listen to how quiet it is. When finished mute system and raise the ET2. I say raise the ET2 because I don’t know how good your pump and setup is. More on this later. Now have a friend turn on your pump and repeat the above procedure and lower the stylus again. Is there any noise in the background now that has been transmitted down the airline into your system that was not there before? Is it the same level of quietness, or is there now a little more background noise with the pump on. If you are using a regular aquarium type pump and no surge tank you will hear differences. For those with good pumps and a properly setup ET2, ET 2.5 there is no need to raise the stylus or unmute after listening with no pump. Have the friend turn your pump on and off while you have your ear on one of the speakers. If you are introducing noise with your pump down the airline you are not hearing what the ET2 can do. The sound is being glazed over by air noise vibrations from the pump. I came across this years ago – maybe 8? by accident. I had an actual small ground hum type noise and could not for the life of me figure out how to solve it. I tried for two days. I could just hear the pump at the time in the other room running faintly. It was a Medo AC110. Finally after a couple of days of trying to fix the problem, I unplugged the pump and I tried the above test. No more noise. Damn! I substituted my backup Medo pump at the time and all was quiet again. The bad pump was still delivering PSI but had a piston problem sending noise and vibrations down. I also found back then that a long run of air tube coiled up also helps to minimize the vibrations. I didn’t discover the above problem until I had swapped in cartridge, wires, amps, preamps, speakers first ! That set me on my pump journey the next few years and I ended up with the pump I use now. So how do you guys test for structure feedback and airline noise/vibrations with an air bearing? Cheers. |
CT0517 I modify my recommendation. It applies to Dover only. RK you have come down too far a path with your Krebs arm. You are truly enjoying it. I would never ask you to do something unless you are curious yourself. If you did pursue it you would need to implement a wiring scheme similar to Frogmans - to be the least intrusive on the ET2 based on your plinth design. Dover is about to reacquaint himself with an ET2 and a sound that is very .. well I really like the word that Spock15 used alot ....persuasive. I am sure his system must have changed in the years that have passed. Cheers |
Slaw - As I was curious I sent an email to Jun-Air on weekend when I saw your post. Their help desk was open this morning. I received a response. fyi. Just great customer service btw. Re: A Jun-Air 16-25 w the moisture trap/container option. When the compressor reaches it's max setting, it cuts off and immediately starts expelling air. Can you offer any advice in how to troubleshoot this problem. > > Hi It sounds like a unloader valve is sticking. Thanks, Garry Garry Unrath Technical Assistance/sales Ph. 269-926-6171 ext 1114 > > Thanks Gary How would you recommend fixing this ? Replacing a part or maybe opening it up - can the valve be lubricated in some way? Chris > > Hi Chris First I would try cleaning out with electrical contact cleaner. If that does not help I would suggest a new one, part number 6973080. Thanks, Garry Do you mean to tell us all, they have Home Depots in Canada??? yeah - you know the damn stores are everywhere - at least 70-100 in Ontario There are 10 within an hours of drive of me incl. one 7 mins away by car (or 45 mins away by horse & buggy) Regarding the Timeter pump - can't recall which model you have. Mine is the Aridyne 3000. There is no brass lip to wear. It has a hours counter on it that when reached - hospitals are required to replace them. They are cheap on ebay and the quality of air is the best I have ever experienced. Its a 50 psi pump that I steal 19 psi from and the rest going into the atmosphere. Because of this and with some of the funny posts hear lately, I am thinking of hooking up an extra line for myself this winter - you know - for when the posts crack me up to the point of having trouble breathing. Its around 60-65 db exposed and not closed in so it needs a separate room. |
