^^^
Well imo, there is nothing funny about a bad ground; whether it is caused by an incorrect connection, and/or a bad connection. The later bad connection (gradually deteriorating) is one of the main reasons boat trailer lights stop working. In and out of the water, many forget to unplug the connection to the vehicle when launching a boat. Everyone with a boat trailer has done it at one time or another.
This vinyl hobby for those that use different cartridges entails a lot of unplugging, replacing cartridge, and reconnecting. The four leads going to the cartridge is just asking for trouble. Making sure each lead is "tight-on" is important. I make the connections first, then I bolt on the cart.
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Frogman - Huh!? Red/Green, White/Blue; no? It must be tough for cartridge designers being at the start of vinyl playback. I mean, once you get past the four exit pins, they have no idea what tonearm, loom/wires, TT, phono stage, rest of the chain / room.....is being used by their buyer. Does this weigh more on the minds of those making higher priced cartridges ? You would think.....I would think.....that at least get the four pins exit points the same. Make it a standard. No ? Case in point....See this picture https://photos.app.goo.gl/3mbrzpEy6iX8qyhi8which clearly shows the cartridge lead colors. My Swiss "freedom fighter" upper picture. My Japanese heavy weight - lower picture. Total opposites on PIN exit design. Why....Confusing ...Yes. ******** Harry - as discussed here before, I bypassed Bruce’ standard loom long ago. Even Bruce uses a straight shot in, but based on what you posted I went to dig out the old looms that came with the armtubes, to have a look. I found a couple. On the one, see here. https://photos.app.goo.gl/QytmFsa3iB929PE78There are four red,green,white, blue wires with black coverings where the leads are connected. Now on the other one - definitely older - there are again the four wires - this time the coverings where they attach to the leads are color coded, and red one is black in color. |
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Are you iced in yet? Looking like a brown Christmas here with above zero temps in the forecast. When I see words like "Iced in yet ", from an audio hobby perspective, I picture homes in the northern US and Canada with full height basements and concrete floors. These spaces make the best vinyl rooms. 8^0. I believe the Denon has a conical stylus. From an empirical perspective Harry, what if any information, dynamics, musicality ? is lost compared to your other carts ? |
I always thought the best tweaks for when curious or bored were the free ones. Harry, you have a nice sized space from your virtual system. What HZ do you have your speakers crossed over to the sub ? If they are crossed below 100hz, you have the option of running your sub near field.
Your sub will work 1/4 as hard, there will be less heat and vibration so its components will last longer; but most important, the bass performance will increase multiple times better.
Now, I realize it is not doable solution in some rooms due to aesthetics or having the sub cables running across the room. Still for giggles .....
IMO anyone running one sub or two should experience this at least one time. Regardless of how much and the type of bass each of us prefer in our rooms; I think its the bass that will make or break the room in the end.
Remember to change the sub phase to 180 if anyone wants to try this. To ensure it is running in proper phase I like to place my hand on the subs cone surrounds and feel the pulses to ensure they are in sync with the bass notes from the main speakers across the room,
Cheers Chris
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"wear out due to age" Oh I realize that Ketchup. Firstly my apologies for going audiophile on you guys..temporarily. The recent chill in the air has forced me inside. Must be the contributing factor. I said what I said because I thought hanging a pump motor would "improve" on the set up. Another way is to add the surge tank - yes. "Putting the pump in another room is the easiest way to mitigate vibrations" It's still sending noise down the air line like electricity. So a very easy way of finding out how much noise for those interested. (Discussed here already) If one wants to find out how much pump noise is being sent down the air line follow this procedure. ****************** 1) With pump on and system muted - Lower the ET2 onto a still record. 2) Turn off the air pump. 3) Still muted turn the volume up to regular listening level and Unmute the system. 4) Place your ear next to the speaker. 5) Have a friend/wife turn the pump on while you listen to the speaker. Note any differences. So it would be an interesting comparison with a standard WISA setup and a hanging one. anyways. ps. 6) One can also start jumping up and down around the turntable after #5, and, if there is no noise out of the speakers..... your setup is solid. Ok.... will turn audiophile mode off now. 8^0 |
reading through that info....
If the WISA pumps design, produced enough case vibration to wear out its footings, this means it is also sending noise down the air line to the air bearing chamber. Why not hang - suspend, the thing in the air like the tonearm, and be done with it ? Think outside the box.
I can think of a couple a ways to do it if I owned it.
Just saying.
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considering the obscene amount I paid for the plinth I quickly decided against drilling more holes. What causes more audiophile anxiety ? A) Putting an extra hole into a - let's call it a "creation" or B) Getting the hole position correct. ??? *************************************** Many years ago I made my own plinth (for fun-still have it) out of birch, mdf, some other materials. 50-60 lbs ? I think. A sandwiched block with a cutout for the motor/platter - in this case for an SP10. One of the main lessons I learned from that adventure, is that removable armboards, or arm pillars that swivel, are worth their weight in gold as far as this audio hobby is concerned. The extra work, skill and time that goes into making this option possible, is considerable and definitely not for the hobby person. |
**** ET2 Yellow Sticky **** Cartridge Setup Guidelines ****
Tonearm Version _____ Armwand Version _______ I Beam/Leaf Spring Combo
General Guidelines.
********************************************************
Tonearm Version
ET 2.0 ___________________________ ET 2.5
Higher Compliance Cart ______________Lower Compliance Cart
********************************************************
Armwand Version
Aluminum __________Carbon Fiber _______Magnesium
High Compliance ______Medium__________Low Compliance
********************************************************
I Beam - Leaf Springs - (a higher mass cartridge needs more
counterweight mass, which in turn needs a stiffer decoupling spring).
Single Leaf Spring _____Double LS __________Triple LS ____
Low Mass __________Medium Mass_________High Mass
*********************************************************
This info is endorsed by Bruce Thigpen
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Hi Guys (Gals ?) This popped into my inbox this morning. It is a rare listing for an ET tonearm that started life as 2.0, and was upgraded to 2.5 status. This means it has the bigger bore manifold and larger diameter air bearing spindle. It includes additional options which include single shot wiring. Anyone interested needs to realize that this tonearm will require a suitable air source, able to deliver more than 19.0 psi to allow for a steady 19 psi. As an FYI. It comes with the original aluminum armtube only from the looks of it. The Carbon Fiber and Magnesium armtubes are a better match for the 2.5. Also be aware that Bruce now offers upgrades to the original design which include Solid Aluminum Base Mount, and Gooseneck (replace the CF), and of course the longer I Beam which reduces the weights requirements in half. Not affiliated with this ebay ad. https://www.ebay.com/itm/333098302449?ul_noapp=trueGood luck to those interested. |
Hi Tim (Flemke)
Both pieces will add weight to your setup over the Carbon Fiber.
(probably not recommended if someone is mounting an ET2 on a Linn LP12)
You will be tempted to add the joint (Gooseneck) first (quicker to do), but to do proper "audiophile" observations for us, you should replace the mount first since it cradles "the whole enchilada". Then the Gooseneck 2nd. Doing two changes at the same time in ones system, breaks multiple audiophile rules.
But then again, if you are like me right now, just trying to make it past what is remaining of winter with some music; the last thing on your mind, may be to want to mess with your set up.
I have the new mount and what I consider a third party aluminum Goosneck, which I acquired if you remember my posts here, by way of New Zealand, courtesy of Richard Krebs.
My shiny Gooseneck, was IMO, a sort of inspiration for Bruce to do the Aluminum. I remember he really liked what he saw in the picture of what I sent to him. Mine is a bright silver and it does add bling to the setup if one likes that. I prefer that Bruce kept his aluminum pieces the same color as the rest of the tonearm parts.
Then again,
I read here on AudioGon somewhere, that someone once posted a question; Why do all these air bearing linear trackers need to look like oil pumping rigs ? He was obviously a bling fan.
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^^^^^
Mruggs2 - I haven't ....but....on another note.
I am most intrigued by those brave souls who have actually removed the cueing mechanism in its entirety. I only know of one person that has reached this level. R Krebs.
The consumption of ? during music can increase bravery, but decreases the dexterity imo, needed to handle the naked armtube (void of linkages), which holds the precious. Or does consumption of ? actually help others calm down ?
************************************
I 'm breaking through
I'm bending spoons
I'm keeping flowers in full bloom
I'm looking for answers
From the great beyond
REM - the Great Beyond
*********************************************
Greetings and Happy July 1, "Canada Day" to everyone.
From the True North Strong and....still free.
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Hi Richard -
nice to hear from you and thx for that info. Have not been active on the forum the last few months, so the only "luring" going on for me is with a crank bait or spoon. 8^0
Was just telling it like it is. You are the only one I can think of with this arrangement. Now the strange thing for me is that I have no issues putting a record down on a spinning platter, and then a clamp on top. The turntable is designed for this, and the platter is a smaller diameter than the record making it very easy to grip. (Picture the guy on TV flipping pizza dough) -
But putting that armtube down on the record, and lifting at the end. One cueing mechanism please, for me.
@mruggs2 - The best, smoothest, cueing mechanism I ever used was with the FR64s I used to own.
Cheers.
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Regarding the JIG ^^^^
I have installed the ET 2.0 and 2.5 on a dozen ? different tables of various design. During this time I have removed and re-installed the tonearm in whole or part maybe 70? times - mostly due to cart changes.
Audiophilia Nervosa phase. An AudioGon search on "Goldilocks and the Three Turntables, represents a milestone in a way for myself, and reveals much, in regards to my personal adventure.
Now regarding the JIG itself.
IMO - the key to an easy and successful installation is "Flexibility" in the "Jig" and the "turntable design".
I can share thoughts on what I mean by flexibility if anyone would also like to share here. I am on the forum sporadically through the summer more so later in the fall . Hope everyone is enjoying their summer - or winter - 8^0 - down under.
Cheers |
The fact to consider is that there is pretty high humidity over here, but this happens always, even on "dry" days... There is a challenge when one tries to run a full 360 degree air bearing in Mexico or the Amazon. Adding moisture to the air bearing will have the same effect, as adding water to the oil of a combustion engine. This is not a good environment. The air pump system makes up IMO 50% (EFFORT not COST) in the set up of the solution. Was first using original aquarium AT pump at about 2psi and then upgraded to Medo AC0110 which delivers about 10-12psi trough my "buffering tank". This is not going to cut it unfortunately .You are trying to run a Porsche 911 at the track with snow tires. Recommend a pump system which eliminates the moisture at the pump, and a regulator / water separator near the air bearing, that allows you to see the PSI and moisture level near the air bearing. How long is the air line - pump to air bearing ? Does the PSI get lower along the way. It is an indicator that water / moisture is getting in the line, if you are losing PSI. |
sary
Looked at possibilities to build a copper tubes system (or use a condenser from AC or refrigerator) where compressed air could
be cooled down so water can be separated but did not come with practical solution; has someone maybe try something like that? Sary This is exactly my solution that I implemented many years ago. Do research on Timeter Aridyne - 3500, 3600, 2000 models. End of the road - no fuss no muss, no filters, no traps, no bottles, just keep it in a separate room (hidden from the wife if need be) with the airline running along the baseboard to your setup. See pics 12 and 43 on my AudioGon virtual system. If I recall back the noise level is around 55-60 db. You can buy them used on ebay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/TIMETER-Instrument-Corp-ARIDYNE-3500-Medical-Air-Compressor-System-/2916073... |
Sary - the base ET 2 does not work with 2 psi - you need at least 3 psi. this could explain one reason for your skipping. I have helped friends setup systems in the past. Regarding the regulator. Type - Ensure your regulator comes with a water trap. Like this. https://photos.app.goo.gl/eomCEWeVxLZxqn9U9Location - as close to the air bearing as possible. Less chance of moisture getting in after air passes through it. Usable gauge scale range - makes no sense for example, to have a 100 psi scale for measuring 3 psi which the base ET 2 requires. Regulator Spring tension rate - higher PSI firmer spring rates to better engage/accuracy for the regulator, and the reverse, softer regulator spring rates for lower PSI. ********************************** Regarding your comment on the convenience of pivot arms. Convenience will always win out in the end, especially as one ages. I have a Dynavector hybrid / pivot arm in my second room I use occasionally to test out records. The key here with the ET tonearm / pump system is. IMO, to get a setup going that is as close to turnkey as possible. You throw the switch - no more fiddling. My pump system lives in the back bowels of the house. A forgotten setup except when needed and then it is critical. Our Savannah cat has shown an interest and climbs up on it occasionally. Maybe I can teach her to throw the switch for me and really make it turnkey. 8^0 I purchased the big boy Aridyne 2000 with minimal hours a couple of years ago, for a good price, but the shipping and customs was high. You would not pay customs being in Hawaii. It is a backup for when my older smaller Aridyne gives up the ghost. But it keeps on going..... |
Hi Kevin - yes, she is settled in and in charge. New guests are amused watching her stare down a 90lb Black Labrador Retriever and have her way with him.
Felines and turntables - its make me shudder. With one swipe she can take out my drive system - string - easy to replace 8^0 , but the tonearm wiring or cantilever (much more expensive).
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Hello Walt
Sorry to hear about the flood. 8^(
when you say "lost":, do you mean in the literal sense, as in never found, or maybe went with the flood debris as part of the insurance process? Reason I ask - Water cannot hurt an ET 2 - it can be cleaned up, parts sourced from Bruce, and Bruce can also verify operation of the VTA block worm gear.
Chris
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Walt - I will private message you through AudioGon, if I come across the availability of one; as I am sure others will as well. Bruce may know somebody. . I would reach out to him. Appreciate your comments. Chris |
Hi Walt - it depends. Is it a beige colored cabinet like in the links below - newer - as opposed to the older orange cabinets ? I would not worry about the hours since they are hospital grade. They are all used to a certain hours / time period then decommissioned - leases etc.. A wholesaler will go into the hospital and buy XX of them with varying usage. These are the sellers on ebay and the like. If possible ask the seller to open the back panel and send you a picture of the insulation. This is the part that can start decaying on the older orange ones. Is the insulation in good condition - not discolored or frayed, some of it falling off ? If possible ask the seller to put a load on it - hook something up to it - and verify that the internal regulator turns smoothly. On older units this can get sticky from water hardness and not being used. This is an issue but not a showstopper,as you can just close it (the regulator) permanently - this puts the compressor on full out PSI mode - and add an external regulator instead. But the external one will cost another $50. If the insulation is in good shape and the regulator is good then the $250 range is a good price. imo. They are $2500 us dollars new. ***************************** Shipping For shipping it’s like a floorstander speaker so needs to go on a pallet. I would do a search on medical whole sellers in your area. You might find one available locally or within driving distance and save on shipping. As I am in Canada..... I got soaked on shipping costs for my 2000 plus duties/customs - the shipping ended up costing 4 times the price of the great deal I got on the unit. But my 2000 was like a ... picture a Barn find, very few hours and even the 12 volt battery was showing a full charge. But I am still using the 3500 - keeps on ticking. 8^0 The Compressor/Pump can be as we know an audiophile journey on its own. We have discussed here how to test ones pump.... for noise going into the audio system. ******************************************** Timeter Aridyne System- how it works - from their site The system works by drawing and filtering ambient air through the air intake. The air is compressed to 80 psi and then cooled via the internal cooling coils which condense the moisture from the compressed air. The moisture is collected in the condensation trap and automatically drained into the evaporation tray. The cool, dry air is then regulated to 50 psi and delivered to medical devices through multiple outlets. the 3500 model is $2500 us dollars new https://www.global-medical-solutions.com/Allied-Healthcare-Timeter-Aridyne-3500-High-Flow-Medical-Ai...the 2000 model is $3000 US dollars . It also has battery backup - so your turntable will slow down but your tonearm will not be affected saving the record from skips in a power loss situation. https://mfimedical.com/products/allied-healthcare-timeter-aridyne-2000-medical-air-compressorThis article shows the differences between them http://www.alliedhpi.com/images/z10-00-0081.pdfCheers Chris |
pegasus
Having trouble with my London cartridges mechanical behaviour, having tried quite long, I concluded that I simply wasn’t able to apply enough damping, the thing was "meta-stable", although there were quite a few elements of greatness. @pegasus Without more detail, the carts "mechanical behavior" we know - is greatly influenced by the I -Beam counter weight set up, Are you using a single, double or triple leaf spring ? Long or Short I Beam, and are you set up for the highest vertical inertia ? ******************************************************** https://www.needledoctor.com/brand/London-DeccaDecca • Output impedance: 2k ohms • Dynamic compliance: 15x10-6cm/Dyne • Channel separation @ 1kHz: >25dB • Load impedance: 47k ohms I don’t own a London cart. The Decca’s have medium compliance so just by the numbers alone they straddle between the ET 2.0 and 2.5 at 15 x 10-6cm/Dyne. Carbon Fiber or Magnesium armtube. I would set up on the Long I Beam. Double leaf spring set to the highest vertical inertia**. **Least amount of weights furthest out on the I Beam. Try with no damping trough first. . |
@pegasus
(if you are disenchanted with your London) - Send it to me I will mount it and report my findings here. I have been curious about that cartridge for a long time. A good winter project and winter has come early here. 20 degrees Cel. below where we should be this time of year. So much for global warming. 8^0
@frogman
I think Frogman has one , an older version/ from what I remember? had grounding issues due to the common ground pin (3 pin) arrangement ? If he sees this maybe he can comment on the mechanical setup/tracking ability achieved - aside from the noise issues common to the older ones.
Is the damping trough a nice to have or absolute necessity with this cart. As we know the damping trough - slows - things down.
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From the recent London cartridge posts here, I did find a thread started by, to my surprise, Jean Nantais - on the London Decca. I attach fyi. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/decca-cartridge-experiences\ I found comments from Frogman and Dover within the thread. I have restarted my winter ritual of pulling 4-5 unknown records every day from my collection, listening to them and cataloging - electronically and physically. Unless a London cart drops from the sky into my lap 8^0 - I will remain in music lover mode this winter. |
To the Et2 owners here, I learned on this "ET2 on Linn" linked thread https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/eminent-technology-et2-on-linn-lp12?highlight=et2%2Band%2Blin...just how passionate these Linn people can be. 8^0 Good post by Pegasus, imo, I especially like this part. Pegusus
you’re outside of the fenced green pastures of audiophile correctness if you mount an ET2 or ET2.5 onto a Linn. But outside the fence, there’s life too! Because the ET2 / 2.5 is not a heavy arm it’s feasible, probably needs "expert tuning" of the springs. @daveyf I learned over the years on AudioGon, that there are people in Audiophilia with years of experience, much money spent on gear, who can’t hear differences between the turntables themselves. One assumes because they have never did a Goldilocks setup where just the turntable was the changing factor? Why else otherwise? From my personal experiences; and not to dish the various VPI, SP10 Technics, Jean Nantais Lenco, all fine tables in their own iterations that I owned (and do still own the Sp10 and Jean Nantais Lenco); I discovered that they were all ....bottlenecks....... to the ET tonearm. This was realized when I was mounted the ET 2.5 to the Verdier and it went to another higher level. I sent a picture of my ET 2.5 and Verdier La Platine setup (an American/French) collaboration to Mr. Verdier in France, when he was still alive. His comment back to me was "What is this strange looking, high quality tonearm you have mounted ?" It was "outside" of his Audio box, but he could tell it meant business. The ET 2.0 and 2.5 are little known in Europe and likewise Verdier La Platine little known in the US. Much better known in Canada, else I would not have found one 10 kilometers from where I lived at the time. Daveyf - IMO If one heard the ET on the Linn in past years and found it a good combo, I have no doubt if one were to "expertly" mount an ET tonearm, in its correct iteration based on the cartridge being used, to the newest version of Linn - that one would be very satisfied. |
You guys have excellent memory! Not according to my wife ..... 8^( Regarding the Hum and Buzz with the Decca. From what I recall Frogman you are running a straight shot from the cartridge pins soldered into the phone stage connections directly. Left ground right ground left signal right signal. I run in a similar fashion but with unshielded wiring a direct shot (3 feet in length), and terminating using WBT plugs. My wires are separated once they leave the armwand. 4 separate wires hanging in a happy face loop, cause minimal air bearing interaction - but, not being braided all the way can be more susceptible to hum and buzz. What I did to remove the noise. Did you try this? Go behind the phono stage and separate the wires the last 12-18 inches before they go into the phono. With the phono on, the record NOT turning- turn up the volume and start moving each wire individually - one at a time. U will induce noise with each wire movement. Once the first wire is in a position that is quietest, use blue tack to keep that strand in place. Repeat this process with the other three wires. By the time all four strands are done all should be quiet. Did you try the phono stage cheater plug with the ground removed ? Also If someone is using regular shield L and R phono cables and you have noise - try picking up the preamp / phono box and move it 12 inches in all directions. Frogman the damping trough mystery with subdued noise when it is engaged; a weird phenomena since the damping trough is not electrical. |
frogman - In the meantime, I’m working on getting up the nerve to buy a Decca Reference $😱$ @frogman Do you think the nerve to buy that Decca Reference, is superseded only by the nerve to play it every day ? Especially on those cold days when some Scotch, Wine, Slivovitz, ....,(fill in the blank) accompanies the music. 8^0 The official London Cartridge website http://londondeccaaudio.com/shows the various models, stylus in each model. (pricing is from Needle Doctor)
Reference - Ultra low mass fine line - $5000 Jubilee - Extended Line Contact - $3000 Super Gold - Extended Line Contact - $1500 Gold - Elliptical - $1200 Maroon - Spherical - $950 Professional - Spherical -
Surely the Reference model comes with more than fancy body work and a different stylus to justify its price ? Can anyone elaborate ? |
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slaw - I hope you buy one so you can report your findings, for my benefit. @slaw Steve - I took an interest in the London Decca cartridge 5 years ago. But it was at the same time as my Quad 57 subwoofer project in Room 2, which took priority. That Sub project went really well. Last few years I have plodding through my library in music lover mode with my "Freedom Fighter" cartridge - a Benz Micro MC3 retipped by Peter of SS. Top one in this picture. https://photos.app.goo.gl/jMNhVwaXMUnRZqrw9It's a great cartridge for playing many records as it makes all of them sound good with minimal VTA changes needed. So, with being stuck inside during winter, I am starting to do more research on the London again; with the objective of coming up with formed opinion based on theory. These "theory" opinions - imo (8^) are worth 10% of real experience opinions. They are good enough opinions though, I think, theory opinions, for spotting a good deal when it comes about. I never buy anything unless it's a good deal, and the Canadian dollar has pretty much killed buying audio items except for maintenance items, like my recently re-tubed RM9 Music Reference amp. Cheers Chris |
@slaw I said in the previous posts I am open to interrupting my current vinyl routine, and put a London on, if, someone sent me one. I know, it would involve venturing to the dark side - Audiophile mode again. 8^0 How many records does the serious audiophile keep in rotation at one time? Any thoughts? Where equipment "sound" takes priority over the music itself. Cartridges are like car tires. I have found that there are people who spend more research time on buying replacement tires for that special car, than the time they spent buying the actual car! If a person has money to burn it's another story. ************************************************** @pegasus Unfortunately for the ET 2.0 and 2.5 owners there has never been a competent "audio magazine" review, that demonstrated the 3 dimensional aspects of ET 2 setup. Being introduced same time as CD might have had an effect. I will re-iterate, if someone can find a good review that goes into depth and shows an understanding of the Armwand, I Beam Setup and Leaf Springs.... show the review to me. So, when we are researching items like cartridges, forum member contributions, carry more weight for me if the person owns the same gear. The way I see it - Frogman and yourself struggled with different versions of this Cartridge. Frogman's London cart is the older 3 pin model. ************************************************ Research from Audio Magazine Reviews. Pegasus
In the comments about arm matching, Art got the resonance frequencies of the Abis SA1 the wrong way: The horizontal is in his test about an octave lower (centered around 6Hz) vs. vertical (around 12 Hz), not the opposite way round. Audio magazine reviews usually contain comment sections - was this mentioned ? Pegusus - In one of the better german magazines there was a test of the London Studio which is similar to the Maroon, but using a front and back tie-back thread, instead of only one pulling back. The review sounded somehow surprised by the (even better than expected) sound quality, which Intrigued me. - Is this possibly the best sounding London, at least of the "basic" ones? Any comments from Eric or other London owners ? ******************************************** Some of my research. Martim Colloms and Michael Fremer both had similar experiences to Frogman and Pegasus in Stereophile on the Jubilee and Reference https://www.stereophile.com/content/london-decca-jubileereference-phono-cartridgeMartin Colloms re:Jubilee
Good, well-modulated recordings contain peak amplitudes that are beyond the compass of Deccas—even the Jubilee. The cartridge sounded pretty wonderful until it failed to track, when all hell broke loose. It doesn't mistrack in a subtle manner—you know immediately from the edgy, ringing rattles it produces that something is wrong. Nothing I could do with respect to setup or ancillary components did much to push the trackability envelope.
However, this is also a significantly flawed cartridge. This may not prove fatal—it just depends on the demands you plan to make on it, and the care you can lavish on both system-matching and alignment. As in the old nursery rhyme, when it's good, the Jubilee is very, very good; but when it's wrong, it can be horrid. ************************* ^^^ (The last sentence mirrors what can happen with a Linear tracker setup - LOL. If a good setup - good all the way through, (not just at two points like a pivot arm). But if it's off. It's going to be off all the way through.) ************************ Michael Fremer - London Reference) ( should mention I stopped reading Fremer reviews years ago when he reviewed a product (Linear tracker) - found it better, heard the differences, but decided it was not worth the added effort. He got "old" for me from that point forward. His review happened to be lumped together with Colloms by Stereophile, in the same link above.)
Michael Fremer
You have never heard a snare drum or cymbal retrieved from a vinyl groove until you've heard what the London does. When tracking correctly, its transient delivery was nothing short of astonishing—by a laughable margin, the most realistic I've ever heard. The entire drum kit, in fact, from the kick drum up, left my mouth agape. The same with voices, which were delivered with a coherence—a wholeness—that was scary with the lights out. Rhythmically, dynamically, and, to a lesser degree, spatially, the London Reference is in a league of its own. It speaks with a single voice of authority as has no other cartridge in my experience.
**************************************************** So good comments so far .........if I was a drummer like Eric - .......8^0 ***************************************************** Fremer comments continued. But not everything fared as well; in terms of both music and noise, it was difficult to predict what I was going to hear when I dropped the stylus in a groove. Some records that are silent when tracked by the Lyra Titan were full of pops, ticks, and other garbage through the London.
Some think the London tears through vinyl, but after playing some discs repeatedly, I didn't find that to be the case. Setup, however, is critical—the utter lack of "wiggle room" is made more of a challenge because you can barely see the stylus tucked underneath the body, and there's no cantilever with which to reference the zenith angle. And the London horribly mistracked some records and had difficulty with sibilants on others.
Would I make the London Reference my primary cartridge? No—its performance is too unpredictable. Would I recommend it for use as an auxiliary cartridge on a second tonearm? If you can drop $4495 and not worry and you play lots of jazz and rock, don't hesitate—you'll get your money's worth with every play, and you'll play it more often than not. There's a mono configuration available, and as a mono cartridge—its original purpose in life—it must be stunning.—Michael Fremer ^^^^^^ my comments now. sounding like an audiophile cartridge to me ? ? You know ? the one you use with just those records. I am not looking for another audiophile cartridge. So I ask do any versions of this cartridge do well with large scale orchestral music? Seems the London Reference is the one, the pricey one with the aluminum body. My Verdier platter is all aluminum. It was made from a billet of aluminum. I am assuming an aluminum sheet used to shape the Reference body ? I have worked with Aluminum it bends and shapes fairly easy. The market prices are what they are however ........ That's where I am at. sorry for the long post. |
Frogman - appreciate the comments but we are all a bunch of audio crazies. There are worse things that we can be I guess 8^0 I have never seen a wire loom like yours. as posted on this thread previously. Frogmans ET 2 setup. https://photos.app.goo.gl/P3at6pmSPGeFFABZ6Nothing but audio passion makes that as far as I am concerned.
There was something about one of his posts that gave me the feeling that he is intrigued
For some reason I can’t get the memories of racing Go Carts out of my head, when l think of this London cartridge. There were some tremendous crashes into - most of the time a stack of rubber tires. But in between those crashes, it was an exhilarating ride. As far as the London on the ET. Someone send me one and I can put it on the ET 2.0 HP in room B. that is using an Sp10 MKII with Acutex 420str. https://photos.app.goo.gl/82pfNoQgwND5yhtz9The SP10 is in a minimal plinth held up by stainless steel columns which bolt into the base. The ET 2.0 HP model version is on a circular armpod that was cut from billet of brass. One screw on top for the ET2 and three holes on the bottom for the spikes or bolt directly into the base from underneath. The whole thing rests on a Audio Technica AT616 footers. The intent of this design from many years ago, was not to look pretty, but to eliminate Direct Drive motor and other vibrations. Build it and they will come ? Comes to mind now. . I have found that the long I beam - and single leaf spring if tightened just short of snug, provides action that is excellent damping with out of round records. That might work well with a London cart but obviously speculating now. ^ I realize that what this last paragraph is saying probably flies in the face of the person that "targets snug", but this tonearm is unique, and it "flies in the face" of all other tonearms anyway. |
Who's the fourth ?
The magnetism of the "dark side" shows no bounds.
@nandric
Nikola - would you like to be part of our London project by ......ah ......being the London cartridge "donor" ?
Surely this fabled cartridge must occupy a spot in your "army" of cartridges ?
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Nikola - good morning. So you got me curious about this Ikeda 9 cantileverless cartridge. Did some research found your forum thread here. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/anyone-familiar-with-ikeda-9-series-cantileverless-kind-mc-ca...from that thread your post. nandric OP
06-18-2018 3:00am
Thanks dear ddriveman, My only problem with 9C,mk 2 is the
(very) low compliance. I can hardly get 50 microns ’’pure’’
with tracking capability test records. Speculating or rather deducing
from VTF 2 g by R versions in comparison with 2.5 g for my 9C,2
I assume that R versions have higher compliance (?).
BTW I recently purchased Ikeda 9 TT with aluminum cantilever.
Nice but not equal to the cantileverless kinds. ****************************** "I hardly get 50 microns" I did more research about your comments ...... According to the Vinyl Essentials - Hi Fi test record http://rssconsultancy.co.uk/article71.pdfthe section on tracking says this. Next comes the test that strikes fear into all cartridge manufacturers - the Tracking Ability Test. This is simply a tone recorded with increasing amplitude ranging from a 40 microns peak-to-peak sinusoid cut in the vinyl to 100 microns in 10 micron steps. So why such a low score. This 50 microns seems low since the scale starts at 40 or is your scale different? Curious to know what tonearm/s were tried with this Ikeda 9 to get this result ? Disclaimer - I have no opinion on these Hi Fi test records. I have never used a test record or felt a need so this is new to me. I know there are a couple on the shelf somewhere as they came with a group of collector records I bought years ago. *********************************************** So, from this information it appears you like the Ikeda 9 cantilever less over his normal carts with cantilevers. But can I assume your favorite carts still have cantilevers ? As someone that owns an army of cartridges. I would be, .... I’m sure the other three "remarkable tonearm" owners 8^0 would be ,.... et al, very interested on your opinion - pros and cons of the Cantilever less ...and did you personally experience a London cart ? Thanks Chris |
The thread is made up 1) ET 2 owners, 2)ET 2 wanna bees, 3) the curious, 4) the trolls. 5) the Comedians (which fall into sub categories of a) Light humor b) Dark and Sarcastic humor. The only female ET2 owner I know of is Wendy. Good lord she hasn't age a bit ! Music is indeed the fountain of youth. 8^0 I confess I enjoy the category 5b posters alot. IMO Nandric' posts here (being a non-owner) are a good example of 5b. These types of comedians are able to dish it out and take it too (which they seem to enjoy) With that I look forward to @nandric reply to my question about the Ikeda and London cantilever-less. I have data on the London which I have shared. But this Ikeda is a ? I can understand though, somebody wanting to send off on a plane or ship and say bye-bye to....any cartridge that only tracks less than 50 microns. 8^0 (my feeble attempt at 5b) Go up to any average person and ask them what they think of Cantilever-less ? |
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Pegasus your picture doesn't load for me. Any plusminus systematic listening impressions with the long i-beam? Ie. whether the counterweight far out (lower i-beam resonance) is preferred to less far out and a heavier counterweight? I tend to feel ( ;-) that the bass with my high compliance cartridge / ET 2.5 is unusually quick and extended with the long i-beam, and with the counterweight rather far out. The only negative for me so far. Sometimes my wife is careless and leaves the main floor door leading down to Dads's Hole ....open. Our Savannah cat likes to explore. So I have been researching the costs for an an acrylic cover to cover the entire ET2 tonearm and Verdier platter - and accommodating that long I Beam means .........a bigger Acrylic footprint now. The stuff is not cheap. I tend to feel ( ;-) that the bass with my high compliance cartridge / ET 2.5 is unusually quick and extended with the long i-beam, and with the counterweight rather far out. This is the recommended setup formula for highest vertical inertia. ******************************** for non ET2 owners. The Curious 8^0 Picture two friends equal weight on a teeter totter. That's the ideal setup for fun and ET2 setup.. If a heavier friend shows up instead he will need to sit closer to the center beam. Likewise with the ET2 the heavier weights move forward closer to the air bearing. Not ideal. With the ET2 this increases horizontal inertia. The ET2 already has high horizontal inertia and medium vertical inertia. We can modify this with the counterweights positioning and increase vertical inertia - less weight further out. |
Yes, and the arm will then “see” varying degrees of damping as the paddle traverses the trough. Not good. Frogman/Pegasus No not good. A case of the "tail wagging the dog" ?? We are dealing with an exotic tonearm here. We go to a lot of trouble in setup, to achieve what we believe is simplicity - the Truth. https://photos.app.goo.gl/qp7Va8CbBkKmsBz67We took the Red Pill a long time ago... remember ? You don't want the back end (damping trough) not holding up its end of the agreement. ************************************ Reminds me of something my late uncle said to me one time many years ago. We were riding in my car and I thought I heard something making noise in the back. My uncle said to me "don't worry about any noises in the back" ......LOL It's a substantial piece, the damping trough. If mounting I am off to Home Depot for permanent bond. Removing the tonearm, Putting the manifold casing on its backside. Lining it up correctly. Triple checking. Committing to it. Then it becomes even more critical to set the arm up right. If you are lined up correct at the front - you better be straight with the paddle at the end. No one told me this road was going to be wet ........8^0 |
The last time I travelled the "Wet Road" I was using the short I beam. https://photos.app.goo.gl/CDygimyC7ByWM79C7For Non ET2 owners and the Curious. Look at the yellow circle in the picture. Notice how the air bearing spindle (Grey) is flush with the (black) counterweight cap. That is the easiest way to detect a 2.5 with the larger spindle. On the 2.0 version the counterweight cap overlaps the smaller spindle. The ET 2 manifold casing (think of a car engine block) is bored out, to be able to contain the large 2.5 spindle. Now the confusing part is Bruce’ labeling on the manifold case, for both the 2.0 and 2.5 - just says "Eminent Technology Tonearm 2" The labeling doesn’t differentiate between the two versions. Why the larger spindle for the 2.5 ? .... (the curious ask). Good question. Short answer.... to match resonances better with MC If you take two tubes same material - one larger diameter than the other; the larger diameter will resonant lower. You can prove this by striking each one with a mallet or like. The larger 2.5 version spindle was designed for MC carts and their higher resonances (stiffer cantilevers), so the 2.5 spindle resonates lower. Matching resonances better. ******************************************** tomic601
12-12-2019 1:08pm
Wanna be here @tomic601 Hello Tom. I missed your post.. Welcome..... will you be staying for dinner and drinks *^0 @nandric will you be joining us for dinner Nikola ? Please bring some slivovitz 8^0 |
You sound happy with your 2.5 Pegasus. Be glad that Bruce is not based in Europe with an audiophile mentality. His prices would probably be double. 8^0
I think the manufacturer builds product, and provides general guidelines based on his/her design, testing, etc.... Then the product gets into audiophile hands and all hell breaks loose. Music lovers use products as designed I have found. They don’t have a temptation to tweak and just enjoy the music. Audiophiles are more likely to break the rules and go against guidelines.
This can be good and bad. Its good if they come up with "tweaks" that encourages the manufacturer to upgrade - improve on their design. Bruce’ more recent examples of this include the Long I Beam (reducing the lead weight requirement by half), Aluminum mounting plate, and Aluminum Joint (Gooseneck) that holds the armwand to the air bearing spindle........ replacing the previous Carbon Fiber.
******************************************
Vinyl versus Digital Shootouts
I started doing shoot out’s with my son when he visits. We put on a record album, and queue up the same album on Tidal HiFi .....15 seconds later. Adjusting for volume we switch between the two. The way I used to play with 15 IPS tape versus vinyl. Yeah doing some venturing on the dark side over the holidays.
Result/Findings.
As good as Tidal HiFi sounds ....CD quality and better, my son is getting an awakening on how good vinyl really is. He then starts asking questions about the chain of events, from the needle drop and how we get the sound out. Maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel for all these records after all. He is also fascinated with how a piece of long string, around a platter, is able to keep the music in time (the tempo and rhythm of the music) as good as the digital stream, as far as the human ear is concerned.
I admit as well it is a lot of fun switching between different re-masters of the Beatles albums and the like, with just a click.
Cheers
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Thanks for the PM Tim - as it alerted me to the thread. Guys, I have been away and am in the middle of moving house. My gear is being consolidated into one large room. I have decisions to make regarding speakers. 8^0
Hello Pegasus and welcome to the thread Stu and DJspinner.
Djspinner - I have my doubts that you are going to use your new kit for DJ work 8^0
Congrats on the ET 2. The ET 2 design allows for "any" cartridge to be used by swapping out armtubes and I Beam leaf springs. Also with its patented worm gear VTA system, does not change VTF when you raise and lower VTA. All other tonearms regardless of design change VTF when you adjust VTA. Someone name another? This makes the ET2 still IMO one of the most advanced tonearms on the planet, and from my personal experiences the most advanced.
Your choices DJspinner.
AT VM-540ML
40 x 10-6 cm/dyne
AT VM-740ML
40 x 10-6 cm/dyne
Nagaoka MP-150
18 x 10-6 cm/dyne
Grado Opus3
Compliance: 20μm/mN
Denon 103R
5 x 10-6 cm/dyne
Hanna E
17 x10-6cm dyne
As a general guideline in the numbers above. the higher the first number, stick to the aluminum armtube. As you go lower (15-20) consider getting the Carbon Fiber or Magnesium Armtubes from Bruce Thigpen. Definitely get Bruce to send you the new longer I Beam with double leaf springs. This longer I Beam eliminates half the counterweight needed and this increases vertical inertia. From my experience the double leaf spring works better with all cartridges except those with the highest compliance. So we are trying to (for those looking to better the sound) match the better armtube and leaf spring to the cartridge compliance. You will hear the difference if that is your pursuit.
This compliance word that we keep hearing about, I simply refer to how springy and soft/hard the suspension of cartridge is - that holds the cantilever/stylus in place. The softer/springier the suspension the higher the first number. I think of Cars that come with buttons now that change the suspension from soft (cushy ride) to hard (sporty). Those that are fans of vintage carts.....that suspension has hardened over the years lowering the compliance.
We can still get music from a cartridge that is not matched to the better suited ET2 armtube/leafspring setup. It just won’t sound as good as what you can get from a well-matched combination. These types of choices that change "real mechanical aspects", are part of what makes IMO, this analog hobby so much more interesting and involving than digital.
Can there be a better hobby during a lockdown ?
unless you are moving house....
Stay safe, stay well.
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@stuogawa @djspinner et al Bruce is around. He just responded to my email.
Chris,
Yes, we can still perform service on the ET-2 and parts, I hope this
helps - brucet
With that. We all recognize that Bruce will not be around forever, but this tonearm IMO is indestructible. I mean, if its disassembled in parts in its box, and you accidentally leave it on the driveway and run it over, that's one thing. Barring an accident it will outlive all of us. Its biggest threat is moisture in the air line and minerals deposits, that can land on the manifold blocking air flow and movement. Even then the ET2 manual can be downloaded and does a great job of explaining how to clean it. Unlike mechanical bearings that go dry and stiff, if you have a good trap for moisture there is nothing really to do except maybe keep it covered when not used for protection against dust. Pumps are easily replaced. JMO |
So given those factors, a
cartridge with a compliance number higher than 20 should pair best with my
current tonearm setup?
Hi Djspinner From a numbers view point it would be the most "plug
and play".... but here's the thing. I can tell you that there are people
here that are using very low compliance carts like the Denon 103 with the
aluminum armwand, and they have made changes in their kit to improve "the
sound". Some have modified the actual
aluminum armtube itself, added less resonant wrap to it, or filled the head of
the wand with material. Others have made other modifications further down the
chain of gear. fwiw also I run all MC cartridges
with no load. If your preamp/phono stage can take it and stay stable...try it. @stuogawa Hi Stu - what speakers are those in your room? Cheer Chris
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@stuogawa
Really cool speakers and kit. Congrats
Whenever I put my own time and skills into building and modding components there is always a tendency to want to keep, hang on to those components. There is a pride element with the B&W Electrostatic Speakers I restored last year. I have real problems with speakers. Tonearms are easy there is only one. 8^0
Speakers are like boats to me. Never met a speaker I didn’t like, and could not make work in a room, given freedom in the room. If I stay in a room long enough a system usually ends up in there and speakers take up the most space. Your speaker design is very attractive from this point of view. Case in point, I am having a hell of a time trying to sell some custom Acoustat Model 3’s. I have multiple rooms, multiple speakers, and I am going to one large room. Not really an environment to have people audition the sale of speakers. 8^0 And the records ? I tried trimming some by offering lots for sale. From an interest point of view, one would think I was selling some disease. Unless the records are rock, pop, funk, punk, metal.....
Cheers Chris
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Hi Guys
Been a really...long time. Life has a way of throwing curve balls even when you think you have planned for changes. We moved house after many (many) years and it has been one challenge after another. Hope this post finds everyone well.
Recently found out that Bruce continues to be active and provides support for all his products. IMO - The best test of products is the test of time.
Remember this image back in May 2014.
I am an ET2'er
Well, Bruce now has official Eminent Technology shirt versions available for all his products. 8^0
Here is the link.
Eminent Technology
https://www.etsy.com/shop/EminentTechnology?ref=shop_sugg
Hope everyone has a great summer (or winter) down under..
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Hi Guys - so I conversed with Bruce this past week on this topic.The conversation is attached below. My personal experience is this.
Anyone into vinyl seriously who sets up their own rigs could probably become a physics major. All the considerations for vibrations and resonances in the room, and they start with that cartridge wiggling in the groove generating a signal. It doesn't get more analog//mechanical than that. Everyone on this analog forum knows by now, that Linear Tracking guys are a certain type of personality. We are not happy that a pivot tonearm can only track properly at two points on a record, we hate anti skate like cancer; however many of us have secondary setups (we call them secondary) and they include pivot tonearms. But we have (actually) heard the differences between them, and when set up properly you can't beat the resolution of ET2, 2.5. Clean sounding records start to finish.
Regarding the recent discussions, I have been using a Mag wand for a long time now with no detriment to the cartridge. My personal experiences is concerns over the added weight are negligible and what is more important - is proper setup and matching high and low compliance carts to their better wands. Aluminum - High Compliance Carts , Mag - Low Compliance Carts. Many have personally modded the aluminum wands to meet their needs. It's all good
I attach discussions with Bruce this week on the topic.
************************************************************************
Hi Bruce
>
> A question from someone.
> They are worried about the heavier mag wand over the aluminum in
> regards to the cartridge cantilever stress, since all records are not
> perfectly round. They think the cart will sway more back and forth
> more with the Mag wand causing cantilever stress.
> The owners manual is clear not to play records that are badly out of round.
>
> Can you provide me with an explanation regarding the forces at play.
> I understand how the aluminum wand works better with high compliance
> carts, and vice versa low compliance carts for the magnesium wand.
> Thanks Chris
Chris,
The untold parameter of a pivoted tonearm: To minimize tracking
error, pivoted tonearms were lengthened with a bend in the wand, or by
mounting the stylus at an angle in the headshell. The frictional force
of the stylus in the groove wants to straighten out the bend or crawl up
the records inner groove wall. When using anti skating with a pivoted
tonearm to prevent inner groove wear, regardless of mass, pivoted
tonearms bend the stylus with an opposite side load force of between .1
and .2 grams per gram of tracking force, the tonearm shaft is being
twisted outward (as viewed from above) with this static load which goes
through the stylus suspension, but the percentage of creep on the inner
wall of the record groove actually varies with the passage loudness or %
groove modulation. So you are constantly bending the stylus while only
marginally solving the problem.
With the ET-2 the side loads to accelerate the tonearm at .55hz
(33/13 RPM) are less than half of those values for an eccentricity of
.0312 inches (1/32 inch) and are a linear function of record
eccentricity. The cartridge cantilever suspension sees much lower loads.
So as you add mass, this side load value of the ET-2 goes up
linearly, but is always less than using any pivoted tonearm with anti
skating.
I hope this helps - brucet
******************************************************************************
And remember the ET 2.0 and 2.5 are unique in design unlike any other linear tracker. This has been covered in length on this thread. The numbers Bruce refers to were actually tested by him in a lab and apply only to his tonearm.
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@ketchup
yes - the longer one cut the counter weight requirement in half. So it must be around double the length of the original one. I am not looking at one right now. If you click on my virtual system you will see it.
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Email Bruce and he will give you the info.
Are you using the newer long I Beam ?
Recommend anyone using the original short I Beam get Bruce to send you (single and double) leaf spring long I Beams. They reduce the counterweight requirement by half, and increase vertical inertia.
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@nandric
Hello Nikola
Most ET2 Users use the ET2 supplied pump, it makes very little noise cannot be heard from 6 feet away and is placed on the floor next to the turntable.
When you order a car you have options. You can select a bigger engine, you can select more horsepower from the same engine. Bruce offers this bigger engine as the 2.5. And he can modify the horsepower the smaller and larger engine make based on your needs. From approximately 3 PSI stock ET2 (base product) to 19 PSI. This applies to the ET2 and the ET2.5 which is the bigger engine with the bigger manifold. Every ET 2 or 2.5 was made for a certain amount of PSI in Bruce’ lab.
Public Chat Forums attract Aficionados in every hobby. Some of us here, represent the extreme end. Many of the discussions are about these mods and upgrades we have done. There are many modifications and upgrades that can be done and this is all possible because the design has few limits. I trust you and others have enjoyed these discussions.
Why Wittgenstein ? I would prefer Newton as what we are discussing here is basic physics. Think of your childhood teeter totter and trying to enjoy with a friend that was not the same weight as you. Do you remember the teeter totter and having to sit closer or further away from your friend in order to balance? The concept is the same here. The PSI gives us lift off, and we can fly sideways and pivot with no friction unlike other air bearing designs.
Does Slivovitz boost memory Nikola ? I can tell you that Scotch and Canadian Beer does not.
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@nandric
Best that we stay on point here Nikola.
I don't follow any philosophers per se; my comment in the previous post was in jest. I do however believe anyone that survived the Covid Pandemic has the makings for being a great philosopher, especially if they are male and divorced. 8^0
Re: your reference to Dertonearm. He was very helpful when I was doing research on La Platine; but when I queried him on his ET2 setups I discovered that he went against the manual recommendations and added as much weight as possible, as close to the air bearing as possible. I also went there and tried that before talking to him. I found adding alot of weigh close to the air bearing, at some point you end up with one note bass and reduced vertical inertia. Adding enough weight can actually collapse the air bearing on that side. What I discovered was as little weight as far as possible out on the I Beam, produced near identical bass results to 15 IPS Tape and Good Digital.
Re;your Fr64s comments. Really well made tonearm in the this era of Chinese manufacturing. It resonates a lot however and produced too much bass in my room. So much so that I had to turn the sub settings down in that room, again compared to Tape, Digital and other tonearms in that room. I believe I read that J Carr had to put tape on his FR64s to tone these resonances down. But if its the only tonearm in a setup, one could obviously make adjustments to make it work well.
Cheers
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