My system is somewhat similar to the one you are building. The M800a was much better than X350.5 that I had in bass control, detail and refinement. I also briefly owned the 590A and it was a spectacular piece. It had tons of function (phonostage, tone control) for the money and build quality is better than pass. I love Pass too and their service is superb. Just prefer Luxman.
I've (briefly) driven my Parsifal/Encore with a Bel Canto integrated. It worked nicely, although the combo was not particularly memorable. The P/Es are a modestly difficult load and at least a little bit of grunt is required to drive them well, 300Bs needn't apply. If the Ovation is similar to the Encore, any good 120 wpc ss amp that you like should mate well.
I have the Parsifal Encore's and I prefer them with tubes over SS. I've been driving mine with a VAC Avatar Super integrated amp (80 wpc) with good success.
IF your buying these speakers a seperate 200w ch amp is the way to go.
I drive mine with Moon W-6's, the sound is effortless and never sounds strained. When I calabrate the system I have no problem hearing the 25Hz test tone.
I have listened to the Encore's with the VAC Avatar also and they did sound very good as Jmcgrogan2 stated.
I must admit that I have not heard this combo yet but I have a feeling that they will match great. So if you have dealer nearby try a Symphonic Line integrated amp. A RG 10 MK4 or RG 10 mk4 reference would do great.
However like I said I have not hear Sympohonic Line/Verity audio combo yet.
Thank-you for all your suggestions.
I have heard the Parsifal Ovations driven by the 20 wpc pure class A Luxman 550A integrated, and this sounded surprisingly wonderful. The 30 wpc big brother to that amp would be a better match (590Aii), and though I have not heard this combination, I would be willing to live with it. The Luxman 590Aii basically incorporates the Luxman M-600A amp, which is the baby brother of the M-800A.
The Luxman integrateds are very heavy, the 550 weighs 48 lbs, and the 590 weighs 66 lbs. This suggests that the transformers etc are much more massive than say the Bel Canto integrateds that all weigh-in at only 12 lbs.
I know that it is very simplistic to compare the weights of amplifiers, but surely there is some correlation between weight and performance? Do heavier amps with bigger power supplies/transformers not have more headroom than lighter amps with similar power ratings? How would you, for example, compare the 150 wpc Bel Canto integrated at 12 lbs to the 120 wpc Luxman 509u at 63 lbs? Is there a specification that better expresses what I am grasping at?
I am not trying to pick on Bel Canto integrateds as I am not familiar with them, I simply noted that they were pretty light compared to the Luxmans when I looked them up.
Is there more to weight than just over-engineering?
The Bel Canto integrated is a so-called Class D amp, so the weight comparison is not strictly valid.
Thanks - I was making the assumption that they were both class AB.
I was actually trying to provide you with a different data point. Basically, my experience with the P/Es suggest that 120 wpc of ss power should mate well - so, if you like a particular 120 wpc ss amp, you're probably good to go. OTOH, 30 wpc might -or might not - be an issue. So, if you're headed down this path, proceed with more caution.
Beyond that, I have no direct experience with the Luxman units. So take my comments as a FWIW.
The Luxman 509u puts out 120 wpc at 8 Ohms, doubling to 240 wpc at 4 Ohms. The Parsifals are relatively sensitive (89), are rated as 8 Ohm speakers with a minimum impedance of 4 Ohms, so the Luxman amp should be a good match.
I am less sure about the merits of 30 wpc class A power vs. 120 wpc class AB power.
I drive my Parsifal Encore with ARC Classic 120 monos (115 watts) modified by GNSC with stunning results. Preamps are ARC REF2 MKI and REF Phono modded by GNSC as well.
Verity makes great sounding speakers throughout their range.
IMHO, class A produce better texture and grip within the power range. The M800a is rated at 60W into 8ohms but will provide 160W into 8ohms before clipping according to stereophile measurements and over 200W into 4. 590a probably do more than 30W into 8ohm.
also depend on the room size and how far are you from the speaker
The M800A weighs 107 lbs, in keeping with its large power reserves. The insides look like a work of art! You must be very happy with yours!
The lower powered (30 wpc) M600A weighs 58 lbs, and the 30 wpc L-590Aii integrated weighs 66 lbs. These two units share the same amplification capabilities, and though considerably lighter than the M800A, they are not lightweights either and it would not surprise me to learn that they produce much more than 30 wpc into 8 Ohms.
As I mentioned earlier, I heard the smaller 20 wpc Luxman 550 integrated driving the Parsifals, and they made beautiful music together. I am sure that the 30 wpc L-590Aii would be an even better match, though it looks like the M800A would be even more ideal.
Given my global budget for a new system (and I prefer to buy new), the only way that I can afford new Parsifals is by making compromises elsewhere in the system. A high quality integrated is a very reasonable place to compromise without feeling any regrets.
What I find interesting on this forum is that Luxman's integrateds are mentioned quite frequently. Of even greater interest, is that of the two top integrateds (which cost the same $10K), the class A 30 wpc L-590Aii receives far more mention than the 120 wpc class AB L-509u.
First of all, the L509U costs alot more than the L590. In Japan, the L509U costs close to $2,000 more. In USA however, they cost the same. Do not be deceived by the appearance of equivalence created by the US distributor between these two units. The 509U is the best sounding amp I have ever heard. It will also last you longer than a class-A. The 509U goes with the Luxman DU-80 universal music player. It is the best player, and will run circles around Wadia 381. Parsifal ovations is an excellent choice for the front towers. For the rear, I would recommend Wilson or Parsifal. Having A and B on with the four speakers is an incredible quadrophonic sound. As you are apparently willing to spend this kind of money, I advise you to go for the ultimate system. Thanks, Renjy651.
I have watching this thread and other of your related threads with growing interest. You apparently like Luxman as do I. Are you open to the idea of seperates? If so, the Luxman MQ-88 tube amp and its preamp counterpart are close to your ~ $10K ceiling. There are mint condition demos of each on eBay that are going for ~ $4.7K and ~ $2.8K, respectively. I have the MQ-88 in my primary system and love it. It is class A, I believe 50 watts per channel, built like a tank as are all Luxman components, and sound to die for. An incredible combination of all of the best of tube and SS amplification. I have heard that amplifier easily drive speakers similar (or worse) in impedance challenge to the PO's, with ease and great musical results. I realize you prefer to buy new, but thought that mint condition demo units might be something you would be willing to consider.
Thanks for the suggestions.
I have a Sonic Frontiers 50 wpc tube amp, and though I love some aspects of the tube experience, I will not miss tubes burning out or blowing-up and taking out parts of the circuit with it. In my 17 year old relationship, it has had to go out for service at least three times, and it has been re-tubed even more times than that. I am ready for the ease and (hopefully) rock solid reliabilkty of a high quality solid state amp.
The combination of the Parsifals with the Luxman 509u integrated (or 590Aii) and DU-80 cdp (or D-06) is what I am leaning towards.
I understand why you would want to go the SS route after what you have experienced with tubes! I am a recent tube convert and have yet to "enjoy" my first tube fiasco. Never met a tube amp I liked enough to switch from SS until I heard the MQ-88.
Don Better of Don Better Audio is a friend of mine and my audio dealer. The lines he carries include Verity and Luxman. According to him the Parsifal Ovations are a bit difficult to drive and harder to properly place in a room than the other smaller Verity speakers. That was enough to steer me in the direction of the Fidelio Encores. I will see if he has an opinion he would like to share as to which of the Luxman integrateds he believes would be better with the Parsifal Ovations.
All The Best,
Thanks Steven. I think that your tube amp is at a much higher quality level than mine, so hopefully it will not be damaged when a tube burns out. Tubes are wonderful when all goes well (which can be years at a stretch).
As I mentioned earlier, I have heard the Parsifals driven by the 20 wpc class A Luxman integrated (550), a combination that worked surprisingly well. It was for demo purposes only as it was the only Luxman integrated on hand in the shop. I would certainly go with a more powerful Luxman integrated amp, and would be interested to hear Don's opinion on this.
Enjoy the MQ-88!
Just sharing my experience with 590aII, I have used 590aII for half years now, pairing with Spendor s8e and Meridian 808 CD player. Compairing to previous amp Krell 400xi, it has big improvement in all aspect. Frankly, I did not enjoy listen to Krell much, but Luxman is what I really enjoy with. It is a good amp, I don't feel any lacking in power for their 30w output, felt they are even powerful than 400xi 200w output. It Sounds detail, smooth, musical. Only 1 down side is the heat of class A amp generated on top, need some good ventilation.
Hope this help.
I use two M800a on the Sarastro2 and currently experimenting with vertical biamp vs bridged. Even with 93db, the increased power in bridged config offer more grip to the bass. Biamp adds delicacy and significant increase in frontal to back imaging. You will not go wrong in either of the choices, plus and minuses either way.
Biwire also increase transparency.
Best of luck with you purchase.
Thanks for the input. The M800a would be ideal, but trying to explain this to the family budget committee is far more difficult than justifying the purchase of an integrated amp. Integrateds have a much higher WAF.
I am not sure that I would buy an M600a (plus pre-amp) over a 590Aii integrated given that they are basically the same amp/pre-amp at very different price-points. The M800a is a very different matter!
I have heard back from one of the owners of Verity Audio, and he assures me that either of the Luxman integrated amps (509u or 590Aii) would be "a very good match for the Parsifals".
The m800a is a fine amp and would be real nice with the Verities. Have you thought about going the used tube route and getting something like an ARC ref 110 and ls26 pre? Close on $$$ and this is a very nice combination with the Parisfal. ARC is almost Canadian, which I think you mentioned to be important at one point.
Good Luck, I think it is hard to go wrong with the gear you are looking at.
I just read more of the thread and see you are not interested in tubes. Sorry, but you have a novel, if not, a long short story going on Agon at this point ;-)
Get the Luxman, get the Verity's, report back. It's a big investment so on the other hand I appreciate your research.
Or buy the Verity's and run them with what you have and give it some time?
I have been enjoying the Verity Audio Parsifal Ovations for several months now, driven by the Luxman 509u integratd amp and Luxmn D-06 cdp. As a system it sounds wonderful, and the electronics match well with the speakers.
I enjoy classical music (piano, chamber) and jazz. I listen to a lot of solo piano, and I often feel like there is an actual Steinway D playing live in front of me.
Interestingly Redbook can sound as good as SACD to me when it is well recorded. Some Chandos and Hyperion recordings from the early 90's sound superb.
To be honest, I have stopped listening to the equipment and worrying about individual components. I now lose myself in the music and thirst to hear more. This is a system that conveys the essence of well played music.
If you are not on a budget you might give a try to Nagra VPA monos 845 tube amplifiers, 50 WPC of pure class A i guess.
The OVATIONS may be harder to drive than they seems to extract the fullness of the spectrum, i use mine with success with LAMM M 2.2 hybrid design of 220 WPC getting nearly 40 WPC of pure class A at low volume.
It also depend the size of your room and your listening volume.
I heard LUXMAN amplifiers at Montreal show and they really deserve one of the best sounding amp (warm sounding). Parsifal could tend to be on the analytical side....depending on the matching amp and pre amp.
I would go for tubes design or at least PURE CLASS A DESIGN !!!!
Thanks for reporting back with your decision and the results!!!
ROWLAND 8T or VAC Phi 200.
I own the Parsifal Encores and have only used one amp with them - Jungson JA-200 200wpc pure class A monoblocks. This appears to work very well. Only reason I am chiming in is that in my experience, I need every single one of those 200watts to drive the P/E. If I crank up to about 100db my amp is playing at 80-90% output, so I don't quite see how any of these low powered amps could drive the P/E or P/O to high volumes.
"I need every single one of those 200watts to drive the P/E. If I crank up to about 100db my amp is playing at 80-90% output, so I don't quite see how any of these low powered amps could drive the P/E or P/O to high volumes."
***Agree w/ Edorr for the most part. I had the PE's w/ the CJ Premier 8A, Accuphase A50V, and Tenor 75WI. I had brief audtions of both an Art Audio Jota and Air Tight ATM-2 w/ the P/E's as well. The AA Jota, totally anemic, not even close. The ATM-2, borderline, tight bass, almost the best of tubes and solid state. Ultimately I could see it being adequate for most. The Tenor was the best sounding for the most part. It has that reach out and touch, holographic sound. Really quite special. It did not grab hold of that woofer though, and bass was not great. Just a great amp, but needed an 8ohm speaker.... The CJ 8A had the juice, but in it's original form was still loose and wooley in the bass. The Accuphase stereo amp was the only one that there weren't any doubts. It controlled that 4ohm woofer w/ an iron fist. of course I stayed w/ the 8A over the A50V. At the end of the day, I always go w/ tubes. Bottom line is feed the Parsifal w/ at least a good medium powered tube amp. Think mono's w/ 4 output tubes per side. Running those ATM-2's in mono would have been real interesting. All this of course IMHO.
great way of sharing all Verity experiences.
30 watts may all be what one needs, it's not about the watts it's about control and dominance and capability. aka powersupply.
Prime example the 30 watt Accuphase Class A model. small amp, low watts, big performance.
another example: the LAMM ML2.1 SET.
it has 18 watts no more, but one of the best powersupplies and output transformers money can buy.
those 18 LAMM watts sound very dominant and controlled.
that's what you pay for ;-)
watts = SPL's.
control = powersupply.
so either Solid State and Tubes can have low wattage and still sound extremely powerfull.
it's not howmuch, but how you do it.
I'm been using the 4 ohm tap on my amp as I thought the manual states the Parsifal to be an 4 ohm speaker. Am I wrong? Why do you say it's an 8 ohm speaker?
I used to drive my Parsifals with the Tenor and didn't find it as very musical. I next switched to the CAT JL2, which was a vast improvement. I now have the Music Rerefence RM9 SE and this is the best combo by far. I A/B'ed the CAT and the Musical Reference and the RM9 SE/Parsifal was way superior to the CAT/Parsifal Combo. I think you'll be hard pressed to beat this, especially when using the Wiwires I/C's and speaker cables.
I was using a Cary SLI-80 to drive my Fidelios with great success. However when I upgraded to the Parsifal Encores the Cary sounded a bit thin and became very midrange heavy. I swithced to a BAT VK300x SE integrated and problem solved. In my experience it seems the Parsifals benefit from more power. Even at lower levels (majority of my listening) the power really helps fill out the lower range.
Any new perspectives on this issue? I'm in the market for a new amp for my P/E's. Tubes need not apply, and I need at least 200wpc, preferably monoblocks - budget up to $7000 used. There are a few pairs of reasonably priced Classe CA-M400 listed. 400wpc overkill may be?
Just curious about the 200 wpc minimum. What's driving (pardon the pun) that requirement?
BTW, I have successfully used the SS Odyssee mono amps with my P/Es (in that output neighborhood and well below your stated budget). Might not be the most memorable pairing, but certainly worked well enough.
If you can find a Berning zh270 used run, don't putts to buy it. It is stunning with the Verity Parsifal Encore. If the Ovation is a similar load, I am not in the know on this, the results should be equally compelling. I doubt you will find a MUCH better matchup and I guarantee you could get much less for a lot more. As stated the Berning isn't currently in production but it is STELLAR with the Verity Parsifal Encore. My experience with the Verity lineup is limited but I sure like the Ovation, Parsifal Encore and Sarastros I've listened to. This is not a hype, as the owner of a Berning for the last 9 years and having heard it on numerous loudspeakers including my Merlin VSM the Berning/Verity matchup was the best I've heard. I most certainly would have bought a pair after this experience other than room considerations.
You have invested quite a bit on a really fine loudspeaker please, please don't compromise what it can deliver on a 30 watt integrated amp. The Berning is the most user friendly tube amp I am aware of including long lasting tube life, probably longer than many transistors on some amps. You can have the best of both the tube and SS world without sacrificing anything. One cavaet, you are looking for an integrated, the zh270 while not an integrated will permit you to run directly from your source component to the amp but it DOES benefit from a preamp. If this is out of the question in your situation, please disregard the above. My infatuation with this amplifier is neverending and I can say this only concerning this amplifier, nothing else in audio. It can bring music into your listening environment as few components can and it doesn't cost a fortune for this benefit. Of course there are the usual cavaets as in all things audio, YMMV. Price used around 4-4.5K which you could easily resell for same.
I love this thread!....Personally,I need to congratulate "all" of you Verity owners.These are superb speakers,at all levels.
I wonder if any of you folks feel the "Parsifal Ovation" would work well with the De Havilland 50A amps?They are only 40 wpc,but as a push pull design are supposedly amazing.
I have heard the Parsifals on numerous occassions,and each specific system was very different in sound(though all fine).The two best set-ups were with medium powered tube amps....50-100 wpc.
Best to all
The 200 wpc follows from the fact that I have 200wpc right now, and to play my P/Es at 100db I need to drive the amp to 90% of capacity, so I cannot see how anything below 150wpc would allow me to play the P/Es at high volume. I do this very rarely, but I want to be able to.
As a longtime owner of an Accuphase E550 and a Berning ZH270, now followed by a ZH230 (which stays!) I can only endorse Tubegroovers statement: I'm infatuated as well. I must admit, that I have heard the E550 with the P/E (which was great), but not the Bernings. My inclination is that it would be perfect, at least the ZH270.