DPS/Schroeder Ref. Turntable

Thom:
Interesting stuff re: avy beacons. For reference, I am in the snow 180+ days per year and DO use a beacon as a life-saving device.

I keep tabs on current technology but also know why I continue to use my preferred choice of beacon.

I think a key difference is that here we discuss something subjective (what sounds best to our ears), whereas with beacons we have something truly measurable (time required to find someone buried). Now, the complication is that an experienced user who knows what his beacon can/cannot do can get close to the theoretical minimum -- or at least know where the "gotchas" are.

For tonearms, an experienced user can get closer to the theoretical maximum performance -- but that it STILL subjective.

And, yes, it is amusing how life-saving devices can be discussed with more sterility than tonearms, but when we're talking about $4k and more for a tonearm, it's a safe thing to say that we're in the "leisure class" and fairly far removed from battling for daily survival.

Me? I chose both my tonearm and current preferred beacon based on objective (as close as they can come for tonearms is, maybe, comparing vs other options) and subjective measures. While I'm very, very fast with my beacon and it is great with multiple burials and transmits a very strong (long-range) signal, it's not what I recommend to everyone.

If you knew someone lived out in the sticks and had no help setting up their TT.... which arm would you recommend? (Rhetorical question)

Would a poorly setup "reference" arm that is notorious for challenging setup be bested by a well-set-up "lesser" arm that is "easy" for those fat-fingered?

It's a different question when we have this group of more folks who are more capable of properly setting up most arms (or is that being too generous in stating the skills of those on A-gon? .... $$ does not necessarily equate to facility in setting up a mechanical device) -- but it still comes down to subjective criteria.

Also... I had it from a good source that Schoeder tonearms really aren't available any longer. Can you shed any light on this? When did the last one you ordered come in? I know someone on the waiting list for more than 16 months with no known "start" date.

I took flyingred's comment a bit different than Thom (i.e., not related to manufacturers letting customers be beta testers, which I think is a valid point).

I believe that (some) manufacturers design the very best product they can. Unfortunately, sometimes the price turns out to be higher than a market can support. Therefore, perhaps they trim some areas that will enable them to lower the price and give up a bit of performance.

Perhaps, then, the manufacturer offers the full-blown system with the "best" power supply... but then if you can't quite afford that (or think it doesn't matter), you have the option of getting the table with the lesser power supply -- and maybe getting 95% of the way there with the ability to upgrade later on. I.e., you won't have to settle for a maxed out but "lesser" overall design (lesser TT + lesser power supply), you can get the better TT + lesser power supply.

This is all irrelevant if the power supply in question was designed purely in response to customer issues/problems -- I'm not familiar with the DPS power supply.

Also, sometimes new manufacturing options become available with the passage of time, so it's not necessarily a conspiracy (and it's tough for me to say that as I am a HUGE skeptic myself).

Thanks, Thom, for shedding some light on delivery of those tonearms.

I'm glad to hear they're not out of production, although it does sound like in addition to a substantial waiting period, there aren't many arms coming out, period.

I've heard stories (reliable) of some folks being told that at this point they should not wait any longer, which was a sad realization for them.

I do wish the man very well with his recovery, as it surely would be a shame not to see any more of his arms around.

I'd have gone on the list myself, but I did not have the luxury of time (i.e., I "needed" (who really "needs" a tonearm) a better performing tonearm than what I had "desperately" -- I couldn't wait 16 months or longer/forever).

All the best to you.

Thom:
Your post is an interesting and informative one, but it also makes a few points that beg clarification.

I know of at least one individual on the waiting list for, so far, more than 15 months -- and he's not heard a word that he's even near to the start of the "4-6 month waiting period". I would only say this is a "reliable source" as it is someone I know personally with no vested interest in the outcome.

He was told be individuals that, perhaps, live in the same region as the manufacturer that he should not expect anything. Of course, he could be pleasantly surprised one day when he gets the call for his payment and for production to "begin".

No one in this situation was trying to sell anything, and it is people that i know personally.

When I said "I don't have the luxury of time", it is not to say that I could buy a good (excellent!), used (non-Schroder) tonearm and basically pay nothing for it if I were to sell it down the line.

That said, we both know that certain tonearms NEVER come up in the used market. I happened to select one such tonearm as my choice, and it's the best I've ever heard. I have no intentions of selling as it, too, is a work of art and produces amazing music (most importantly). I think it blows away anything that I've heard...and anything I've seen on the used market.

Caveat: I have never had the good fortune to hear a Schroder reference.

So, you see, for me, I *could* go on the waiting list and sometime in the future (maybe in 6 months, 16 months, or 6 years) take delivery on it, but it is still unknown to me, and I could not say for sure that it would be better (or "different" but in a more pleasing way) than what I have. Also, I know that owning a tonearm at this level -- one tonearm -- is a dream come true. When I am in a more practical mood, I recognize that owning my current tonearm (as I'd never sell it) AND a Schroder just ain't gonna happen for me. :)

And (repeating myself here), while your strategy to buy something for the present (which could wind up being years) to sell at minimal to no loss is a good one, I saw no reason to "suffer" (being dramatic here) with a lesser arm than what I got. Does that make any sense?

To restate: If you found you wanted one of Mr Sachs's bicycles, for instance, (on a hunch because of what you *expect* them to turn out like...not because you've ridden one) but you needed something to ride in the interim (3.5 years)... would you (a) buy a used bike that was 85% of what you wanted and sell it at no loss or (b) buy a new bike that was actually the best thing you'd ever ridden to date? Effectively, I chose (b) in that case -- realizing that my selection may (or may not) exceed the "vaporware".

This would all be different if one knew the Schroder was the be-all and end-all in their own system, and it was just a matter of waiting it out. Many suspect it could be, but few, I would bet, have tested it in their system and also compared it to some other scarce (but less so than the Schroder) tonearm.

Also, while I appreciate that you are a solid manufacturer and quite dedicated, your implication that other manufacturers and/or dealers are less flexible is true for some but not all. The particular manufacturer I selected can supply an armboard drilled for any tonearm in short order -- that is not a constraint.

One thing is certain: No matter your dedication and or quality of service if one is a one-man shop (a la Frank or you for that matter), if one should ever have the misfortune to fall ill or experience some issue, that very high level of service one has provided may go by the wayside.

We all agree that Frank's medical treatments (rightly so!) should not suffer... so the question is what happens when one cannot dedicate as much time to their craft/passion?

If you had an extended stay in the hospital (this is hypothetical and -- god willing -- I hope you live a long and healthy life) or suffered from Frank's afflictions, is your turnaround for an armboard or a part for your 'table going to be affected? No one would hold it against you, but such things need to be recognized.

This is altogether different than a manufacturer/dealer providing poor service by choice, but the net for the customer is the same.

I do hope that the tonearms Frank is currently capable of producing are up to the standard of his legendary work of yore.

I'd love to be on his list, but it seems that one needs to purchase a TT as a "hook" to get in.

All the best, and I mean no disrespect whatsoever, as you seem like a stand-up individual and, I'm sure, manufacture a product that provides musical pleasure to many.