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Does the first reflection point actually matter??

Hello my friends,

So please read the whole post before commenting. The question is nuanced.

First, as you probably know I’m a huge fan of the well treated room, and a fan boy of GIK acoustics as a result, so what I am _not_ arguing is against proper room treatment. I remember many years ago, perhaps in Audio magazine (dating myself?) the concept of treating the first reflection points came up, and it seems really logical, and quickly adopted. Mirrors, flashlights and lasers and paying the neighbor’s kid (because we don’t have real friends) to come and hold them while marking the wall became common.

However!! In my experience, I have not actually been able to tell the difference between panels on and off that first reflection point. Of course, I can hear the difference between panels and not, but after all these years, I want to ask if any of you personally know that the first reflection point really matters more than other similar locations. Were we scammed? By knowing I mean, did you experiment? Did you find it the night and day difference that was uttered, or was it a subtle thing, and if those panels were moved 6" off, would you hear it?


Best,


Erik
erik_squires

Showing 6 responses by aj523

aj523
360 posts
 
I gave GIK and Acoustical Surfaces a dozen pics of my room for recommendations and they each came up with completely contradictory suggestions. GiK was all about absorbers covering as much of the surface area of the walls and ceilings as possible while AS took a more balanced approach but wanted me to use diffusers for first reflection point and in corners which I thought was odd.

All I got was more confused so im going to buy software to analyze my room first so I dont waste money and make mistakes. Deadening the room can just as easily kill dynamics.

As an aside, i did almost a dozen speaker demos the past month and all dealers had diffusion on the walls between the speakers. GIK said you want absorption between so again conflicting messages.
aj523
360 posts
 
Another confusing controversial thread.  Seems like the only alternative to avoid all this is to buy acoustic measurement software like from Dayton audio and figure out your room. Then treat it accordingly. 
aj523
360 posts
 
@audiokinesis

Thanks Duke. Your feedback is ALWAYS appreciated. As you know I seriously took the room into consideration when make the speaker decision, turning down several planars /dipoles that i was really interested in. The Harbeths, 3 feet out from the front wall and almost 7 feet from the side walls, with their large front baffle seemed to be the best choice and quite frankly they sound absolutely amazing, BUT Foley tells me the Harbeth midrange and the speaker overall will sound like a different speaker altogether to the extreme.

Soooo... now I’m deciding on putting 1200 lbs of treatment in our main living room but save multiple x $$$$ on the cost of a wedding next June since my fiancee will surely leave me. Not an easy one indeed. 🤔
aj523
360 posts
 
I just had my free phone consultation with Mr. Foley and after reviewing my room through photos (see link), he recommended the following:

1. No diffusion anywhere to begin with. That will worsen the problem he perceives given all the windows.

2. Treat the walls closest to the speakers first so that’s the front wall behind the speakers first and the side walls with as much absorption as possible.

3. No need to buy software to measure the room since the problems are obvious and better spent on product.

4. The treatment of corners with bass traps etc is a common fallacy and not a priority.

5. Tame from "40 cycles - 7000 cycles" as he calls it with eight (8) carbon panel CPs at $750 per panel. And since each panel weighs 150lbs, its about $1,000 for shipping. So all in $7,000.

6. He did some calculation where he said I would see 65 percent improvement. I pressed him on what that is measured against but forgot his reply.

7. Then we can talk about diffusion after a period of time of listening to the results.

THOUGHTS?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BFAQLGEo4UmknMZm6
aj523
360 posts
 
Thx @erik_squires and @optimize

The GIK 242s are rated from 250, and the 244s from 80. He specifically wanted to match the 35hz +/- 3db point of the Harbeth for smoother results and he thinks bass is the biggest issue in the room. But the investment is significant and the aesthetics are not great for a room that’s not a dedicated listening room. They come on rollers so the 150lb panels can be wheeled around. In the pics you can see a big plant to the left of the left speaker and a velvet sitting chair to the right of the right speaker - he said both of those have got to go! Lol. As the speakers must have unencumbered space in and around them.
aj523
360 posts
 
@erik_squires 


Lol. Ok so you're saying this dude Dennis Foley doesn't know what he's talking about.   Got it. 
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