No previous generation of audiophiles ever wanted systems that could handle loud gunshots or soft whispers, and certainly not with wide bandwidth and clarity. But if it makes you feel good that you're in a Kafka parable, then it's all good.
You like what you like. Why care what others think? That's just my uninformed take on your situation.
Andrew,How old are you? What are some of the bands that you like to listen to?What is your system?Regards,Ray
Acoustics are anchored in the law of physics, so no 'ideology' is possible.
" I just believe a system should be able to mimic any thing from gunshots to whispers"
IF that challenging test can be passed, good chance the rest would work pretty well also, personal tastes aside.
Where did you pick up the idea that "audiophiles" have Bose 901s as their standard? Bose is perhaps the most dismissed consumer brand among those who take their audiophilia seriously.
While most 'audiophiles' reject Bose 901, there are plenty of other people that listen to music through it.
I suppose you should lay out on the line what gear you think it takes to get that sound you call perfect and then you can see if you will be considered an outcast or not. I'm sure if you do delve into the audiophile world your opinion 20 years from now will be a lot different than it is right now. As a studio guy myself and engineer one of the best things I ever did was discover hifi it taught me so much more about sound and mixing than I ever would have learned just through the pro audio world.
Not sure I can agree with you Onhwy. Gunshots and whispers are dynamically what classical music is in a nutshell. We considered 901s a joke as soon as they appeared.
You may want to investigate horn loaded loudspeakers. Generally speaking they have greater dynamic range and lower harmonic and IM distortion than direct radiators. However, everything has it's price and many horns can have colorations that some will find unacceptable.
Wonderful responses, all.
Anyone who takes seriously, a hobby, will be considered a bit odd despite the timeline. Factor in a hobby with a quest and most folk will steer clear of you.
All the best,
Marakanetz wrote: "While most 'audiophiles' reject Bose 901, there are plenty of other people that listen to music through it."
That's why I phrased my question and comment the way I did. I know Bose is a best seller with the larger public, but if you carefully re-read Dynami28's original comment, he makes it clear that he thinks Bose is an exemplar among the older generation of "audiophiles". One doesn't have to read very deeply at any of the audio web sites to learn that isn't the case.
NoNoise,Oh. Is that what it is? If it's an applied model, I'm in a lot more trouble than I'm aware of!
Csontos, Onhwy61 speaks with tongue firmly implanted in cheek. lol.
I find it amusing that Andrew felt like telling us old Bose 901 loving audiophiles off. Oh my, heavens, did that young man just dismiss Bose???? LOL!
You just might be more like an old audiophile than you think Andrew. ;)
Okay, I just googled Kafka. Didn't I just tell you I'm in more trouble than I'm aware of? Sheesh!
I reject live music as "the reference" because I have walked out on more than one live concert because it sounded like s**t. I listen with a group of 6-7 philes and each goes a little different direction in tailoring sound. After all, you have to like what you are hearing, no other ears will like exactly the way you like music reproduced. Music is therapeutic. Why cut a session short to please other ears? Jallen
An "outcast"? You could never be more of an outcast than the people who are into this hobby. Go to an audio show and you'll see what I mean. It will scare the sh*t out of you.
Dynami28 has a point actually. My main problem with Audiophile approved systems is that they often gloss over the "Life" of the music! Playing back a live recording is often times the best indicator of whether or not a system can reproduce sound faithfully. Live music is full of dynamic contrast, color and effortless clarity...many systems fail horribly.
Hey Chayro I get my daily scare fix at Wallmart.
Jallen, don't get me wrong i don't really care what other think of me. But I've had the inability to play well with other Audiophiles for as long as I can remember.
Jmcgrogan2, I've actually met Andre once in New York, and yes, I know Bose equipment is the butt of many jokes. And hey I know I'm getting old, but I do appreciate the comment about being more of an Audiophile than I believe.
Mlsstl, No disrespect, I don't believe that all the old Audiophiles listen to 901's. But after years of listening to people push and pimp them to me.... I became a little jaded. Trust me I believe 901's are the standard litmus test for Audiophile status. Not meaning they are that good of course, the opposite.
Viridian, Unfortunately I don't have a large budget available so I'm afraid I have to make do with what I have.
Csontos, Much respect, Richard Shahinian taught me that lesson almost 20 years ago now. And yes, I am using 901's as a catch all for crappy sound billed as "premium".
Ejlif, I don't have the time or space to explain my current or wish list setup, however I will get into that on a later discussion. As for 20yrs and learning a complex trade, that's what makes us who we are. And in my case I wouldn't have that without the mentors I've been fortunate to have in my life to showing me the RIGHT way.
Marakanetz, Some people buy only the best, some only what they need. If you're happy with 901's that's all that matters. It's just in my opinion that more could be had for equal or even less value.
Mapman, "Personal tastes aside" Huh, personal taste is the fabric of being, tossing that aside would be like eating a 12 Gauge dinner prepared by Mossberg..... at least for me anyway. Besides I love challenges, especially when "it can't be done". I used to tell my customers that the impossible just takes more money, cubic dollars how low do you want to go? In any case no disrespect intended, just a verbal joust of sorts.
Buconero117, Hey now, no offense, but if thinking like that from people like Einstein, Newton, and countless others was used. You may still be kicking your donkey to get going. Ideology, Art, and Science are all connected. Like it or not. After all it was the ideological methods that inspired the discovery of Science, Math, and Physics. And that's not even bringing religion into the picture.
Raytheprinter, Well, I'm a very well abused 37 yrs old, I started to do Executive Protection (very dangerous work but awesome money) for a career when the economy tanked. My speaker and sub system is all custom built by me, using a lot of leftovers and endless tuning. The band I most favor now is Tool, but it is not limited to that. My tastes range from De La Soul to Tracy Chapman and so on.
Tpreaves, I would love to agree with you, but I need to make a go at making money, and that can't happen without people's opinions getting involved. Thanks for the same kind of advice I would give out - it truly means a lot, but apparently not enough in this economy.
Onhwy61, Maybe not a Kafka Parable, but perhaps I'm just Long Gone with the Wind. You know Forty Six & 2 is just ahead of me. Or maybe like Einstein said, "I haven't failed I've just found a thousand ways that don't work." In any case I'm happy. I guess I just wish others would "get it" and be happy for me.
Chayto - Too right! Its like Comicon without all the fancy makeup and capes (mostly)
It's all a matter of taste, good taste and bad taste.
The latter outnumbers the former 100 to 1.Michael Jackson sold 10's of millions, a great Back Cantata CD a few thousand.
I haven't failed, I've just found a thousand different ways that don't work.
Can I borrow that? :-)
All the best,
I haven't failed, I've just found a thousand different ways that don't work.
Can I borrow that? :-)
Well you could ask Thomas Edison for permission, but I doubt that he will respond, one way or the other. ;)
dynami28 wrote: "But after years of listening to people push and pimp them to me.... I became a little jaded. Trust me I believe 901's are the standard litmus test for Audiophile status."
Interesting. The only single time I had Bose "pimped" to me in the past 40 years was in the Bose store at a suburban mall. I can think of one fellow on Audio Asylum who seems to like 901s and he takes a mountain of abuse for it.
I'm not disputing your experience, but it certainly seems different from what everyone else has seen.
Only clueless people think Bose is something to aspire to. Usually when I tell someone I don't know I have a nice system they ask if it's a Bose. After hearing that I know there is not much point in discussing audio with this person. Some people are so clueless/brainwashed that they can't believe there is actually something better than Bose. I guess having a huge advertising budget really does work on the uninitiated.
I have never heard Bose speakers on a really good system, ie amp, preamp, source etc. Plus I have not heard any recent Bose home speaker models. SO I will reserve judgement somewhat.
Bose 901s are only somewhat more expensive than back in the day when they were objects of lust for many. They cost way less than most current top of the line high end speakers. Fair comparisons should be apples and apples.
Over the holidays, I stayed at a fairly luxurious Manhattan hotel. I noticed an array of specialized elongated white Bose wall mount speaker columns providing the music in the lounge, which itself was elongated, 3-4 stories tall and all marble and glass. I doubt this hotel skimped on getting good sound (for most) in that room in that the venue including the lounge is quite high end, even by Manhattan standards. They did the job pretty well, at least for casual background listening. The system must have been professionally installed to get sound that good in a room like that, which should have been echo city but in fact was quite the opposite. I was surprised to be somewhat impressed and able to enjoy the sound (something I can rarely say about sound on most lounge/bar venues I have experienced in recent years) though it was nothing like what one might hear at home with a more full range setup. So maybe Bose is not all bad for certain applications. I have heard lots of bad Bose speaker sound over the years. Not only Bose but other "mid-fi" type brands over the years. Gotta compare apples and apples in all fairness. Also I have heard their on ear headphones and though I thought the build quality was less than stellar, the sound seemed competitive at teh price point perhaps.
01-03-13: Mapman, When I first got started in audio - I made a lot of money making apples sound like oranges.
A lot can be said for talent, and yes, you can polish a turd. In fact, it was my ability to make audio magic with audio crap, that made me very well known as the guy to go to for the impossible.
One time I entered an automotive SQ competition on a dare...... using only parts available at Radio Shack. And you know what? I ended up winning 1st place. I wish you could have seen the faces in the crowd that day when - after winning - I stood up and informed them of what I had done! (They made me rip my car apart to prove it.)
While competing in a different car and setup for SPL I managed to piss off people left and right, one guy even threw his keys at me! He was so upset that he had lost to me and literally spent 10 times what I had.
There was a time when knowledge was worth more than gold, to bad he had more gold than knowledge.
I guess what I'm getting at is that money isn't necessarily the cure all for quality audio, that takes talent and knowledge.
I'm sorry for the ego in my answers but I'm afraid that it comes with the territory. And I truly believe there are untold hoards of people that are much more talented than I am. Hence my interest in Audiogon. But hey I'm just calling it as I see it.
Can't put a price on good old fashioned know-how.......
On of the best sounds I heard at a recent audio show were a pair of small DIY full range open baffle speakers. The DIY guys provided a schematic. About $500 or less of parts. A real eye opener! Sounded great with Green Day or classical!
REcent proof to me that a little know-how can go a long way
I suggest you look into high-efficiency, SET setups. Compared to those, most big rigs are sluggish and often bloated
You are def good at patting your own back I'll give you that.
01-03-13: Mapman, Finally someone who gets it! What people should be paying for is skill not brand names, and maybe, just maybe, that can make "Made in the U.S.A." great again.
01-04-13: Antigrunge, I've heard a few setups that acted as you said "less sluggish" but felt like I was listening to part or even most of the answer. I can't quite place my finger on it but I felt like something was missing. This could just be that my idea of what is good differs from others. But still something I would play with in my sound room, if given the chance.
01-05-13: Ejlif, I apologize for constantly answering questions with stories of my past experiences, as I do realize it makes me sound quite egotistical. However if you can read past that, I hope you'll see the content of my discussions are driven by my quest for knowledge, not fame. After all, I come from a large Military family and (unfortunately) ego's and talent are sometimes reinforced and even encouraged. I believe the thinking is that if you're good at something you should be more than confident about it.
P.S. -Re: Bose..... where do I start? Well first off I don't believe that every "older" Audiophile owns a set of 901's. I was only using the Bose name as I expect most of you to know it - as a joke. I believe that anything of unquestionable quality and pedigree, can't be sold in large quantities, with out losing it's appeal.
Who is "Andre" Bose? I have heard of Amar. Is Andre his distant cousin who has now taken over marketing and operations?
Andre Bose is a second cousin to Dr. Amar Bose, who sells his knock-off speakers in the mall, right next to Rudolph Lauren.
"What people should be paying for is skill not brand names, and maybe, just maybe, that can make "Made in the U.S.A." great again."
Agree about paying for skill.
PRoblem is, many skilled (and proven) engineers in developed countries do not come cheap. There are exceptions though. I know of at least one or two in the US. Sure there are many more.....
what is an "acoustic ideology" ?
is it of a political nature ?
i have never heard the term before, so perhaps you could define it for me. thanks.
First of all, thank you all for comments, it's been a long time since I've been able to talk to any one that even had a clue about what I was saying......
01-09-13: Mapman, "Made In The U.S.A." is a thought I just had, as I was just finishing up some mods on a new Maverick 88 12 ga., and was pleasantly greeted by the "Made In The U.S.A." logo on the gun. I kinda wish we could do better than weapons, but hey it's a start.
01-09-13: Mrtennis, I believe it has to be of a political nature, as Ideology, is usually introduced through society and interaction thereof. I would define it as such, and introduce Acoustics, and how one has experienced it in their lifetime. Add the two together and you get someone that, through his/her own experiences, has specific views on the subject of acoustics which, don't always go along with the normal or current definition(s) of acoustic standards. I think... anyway.