Does It have to be loud?

For me it’s all about Dynamic Range, not loudness per se...

Well, that me be your (Geoff) preference, but there certainly is more to it than dynamic range. For example, one could choose to listen to Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture or Ravel's Bolero, each of which have reasonably high dynamic range. If you then choose to "top out" the max decibel level of that dynamic range at say 80db, you've done an injustice (IMO) to the great work of those composers. So again, volume/loudness *does* matter.  

Geoff, you should be impressed. Looks like I know about and have listened to more music than only Grateful Dead :)

Depends on the type and specific song of music you’re listening to. IMO, each song has a particular decibel range that makes it sound "right". For example, listening to certain Led Zeppelin songs will be more enjoyable, IMO, in the 90 - 100 db range as opposed to 70 - 90. So in answer to the thread title, no, it doesn’t have to be loud; but often times it should be.

I listen at 50 to 60dB measured at listening chair.

When I play Nirvana, I can listen to it at 50-60 db outside my building.

Soliciting opinions to this question....

I understand that doubling the power results in a 3db increase. Speaker manufactures typically include a sensitivity measurement *and* a recommended amplification power measurement.

Can one draw an inference as to the maximum spl capabilities of the speaker based on its sensitivity and recommended amplification level? I believe, "yes".

For example, if a speaker is rated at 93db sensitivity, and the recommended amplification is 20-200 watts, then could one infer that the speaker can produce (approximately) 115db "comfortably"?

@geoffkait

You do realize that I’m very much aware that you’re "following me" throughout the forum from thread-to-thread and post-to-post. Splendid! You could learn something.

I’m learning how the other side thinks

Trust me, I'll  partake in your nonsense on my terms. But the operative word you've used is "think". Kindly do so.

Since our ears and brain interprete distortion as loudness most audiophiles think they have speakers that play extremely loud however a dB meter will confirm to them that what they think is loud is actually just huge amounts of distortion giving the appearance of loudness.

Hi @shadorne

I appreciate your response to my question earlier in the thread. I’ll grant you that, unfortunately, sound stage does not seem to test above 95db. In the case of my particular speakers (Golden Ear T Ref), I consider the fact that they are a few db’s off "perfect" linearity, and even then over a small range of high frequency, essentially linear where the ability to play loud without distortion is concerned. On the basis of their sensitivity and power handling capability, they can produce over 115 db. And, I have reason to believe they could do so without damaging themselves in the process.

I certainly do agree with you that distortion increases as volume increases. But I think I’ve attended enough live events to know that - at least in my particular case - my system is more than capable of producing realistic rock concert level sound pressure, with (seemingly) no more distortion than the live event itself would produce. So, the fact that distortion increases with volume (generally speaking) is what it is, and IMO is largely irrelevant to the enjoyment of the listening session (unless the distortion is such that it becomes obvious).

To your point I’ve quoted above, I’ll disagree. Distortion doesn’t necessarily give the appearance of loudness. Distortion sounds "wrong" whereas loud and relatively undistorted music can sound authentic (and "right"), like a live event.

A db meter is used to confirm sound pressure level, not the "quality" of the sound. The db meter doesn’t care if the sound is distorted or not. Sound pressure is just that; sound pressure. So, whether or not the SPL is reading distortion or genuinely loud and un-distorted sound shouldn’t matter (from the perspective of the listener perceiving the sound as loud or soft).

EDIT:

Besides the fact that I do have an SPL meter, there are numerous charts available that provide insight as to sound pressure level. Here is one of many: https://ehs.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/decibel-level-chart.pdf It is based on my SPL meter and general understanding that if a subway train at 200 feet is 95 db, my apartment at times can sound as though the train is 50 feet away :)

Keep cranking it until you get the meter reflecting sustained levels at 115 db SPL. If it sounds clear and clean and undistorted (but obviously very loud) then you can be assured the speakers are fully capable.

I’ll pass on that :)

What I stated is that on the basis of my speakers rated (manufacturer specs) sensitivity and power handling capability, they can produce over 115 db. Besides, even if my speakers cannot attain that decibel level, I would still consider them "fully capable" because that level is a bit unrealistic.

Additionally, I live in a coop. I do make an attempt to show some respect towards others. My neighbors already endure the fact that most of time (I listen 3 hours per day) I listen to Grateful Dead, which sounds realistic from a live concert perspective topping off around 95 db, often even lower. On lessor occasions I’ll listen to Nirvana, AC/DC, Deep Purple and a hand full of other select choices that "warrant" playing at louder (compared to many other bands) levels. Even in those cases I’ll top out in the low 100s.

EDIT:

And if I'm not mistaken, 115 db is "dangerous to the health of ones ears" if sustained for an undo length of time. 

This needs a new post as opposed to editing my previous post.....

At the moment I’m on my "set break" during my listening session of the incredible Leonard Cohen. Specifically, I’m listening to 7/9/85, Montreux Jazz Festival, Switzerland. Now for those familiar with his music, surely you’d agree that typically, a volume level of 85 db is plenty "realistic".

That said, there are times/occasions where I just get the right "vibe"....

If you want to toe tap, head bob and essentially get up and dance, I’d recommend two songs from this show: "there is a war" and "lover, lover, lover". They sound amazing in the mid 90s (db). Trust me! :)

EDIT:

So the point I'm attempting to make here is that often it's not simply the genre or artist, but the specific song and ones own state-of-mind at the time you're listening that governs the volume control.

I trust you to continue stalking me. You could spice up your posts with a little humor. It wouldn’t kill you.

My senses are pretty good, and I do sense some sincerity and perhaps the offer of the proverbial carrot in your last post, hence the reason I shall respond. It is true that my sense of humor is "different" than most. To an extent, "warped" in fact. I'll consider your advice to spice up my posts, but in all likelihood my written responses would not deviate from my already established norm. I've posted this elsewhere on the forum, but perhaps it needs to be reiterated that "I’m proud to be in the minority".

I think we should draw a distinction between what sounds loud, and sound pressure level, as they are two different things. Also, the distortion as written about herein this thread (occurring in speakers as the volume is raised at and above 95db) is occurring in the *higher frequency band* (above 2K) as measured by sound stage. Those higher frequencies aren't necessarily the dominant factor when it comes to SPL.

In other words, I submit to the group that one CAN produce (hypothetical example) 100 db without much if any distortion, AND it may not sound (very) "loud". How so? Simple. Play music whose content is primarily lower frequencies, drums, organ, etc. If vocal and higher frequency sounds are absent, you'll have your high SPL, little if any distortion and it likely wouldn't be perceived as "loud" as if you had played a vocal track and then achieved the 100db on the basis of the vocals.

I'm not sure how they measure, but believe me, most speakers won't even go that loud, or if they do, they will distort tremendously, unless the room is very big, or very well acoustically treated, room interaction will spoil the listening experience.

"I'm not sure how they measure"

with a SPL meter and numerous SPL charts available on the Internet that serve as a frame of reference. 

"but believe me, most speakers won't even go that loud"

Totally and utterly false. There is such a thing as manufacturer specs that can be used to derive the information. That would be in addition to user testimonials by folks like myself that use meters, and have stood next to jack hammers once or twice in their lives. Note I'm speaking of as much as 110db, not 120. 

"or if they do, they will distort tremendously"

Depends on the characteristics of the music being played. The distortion - if any is in fact really audible - is at the higher frequencies. 

"unless the room is very big, or very well acoustically treated, room interaction will spoil the listening experience"

The venue is always part of the equation and overall presentation of the music. Same for live acts. 

So I suppose I'm among those folks who have surprised you, because my system can effortless go to 100db and sound fantastic doing it.

I'm always (practically, not at 2AM in the morning) ready to demo my system to any doubting thomases. I'm in zip 11520. Just PM and we can get the party started. :)

So what max level with an SPL meter did you achieve?

I'm using a Dawson DSM101N multi-meter, which I realize is by no means a truly scientific exactly perfect measuring device. Also, according to manufacturer specification, it has a range of 40-100db, with .1 db resolution, accuracy ± 3.5%dB at 94dB, 1kHz sine wave. I have read higher than 100db within 2 feet of my speaker drivers, at the midpoint of the speaker cabinet (which in my case is 29 inches off the floor) on a number of occasions. I've read as low as 33db in the early morning hours when all lights are off (but the meter has a backlight), there is no traffic outside, other residents of the building are asleep, etc.

Hitting 100db is easy (with my system), and I typically can hit that level while listening to the drums portion of Grateful Dead performances. Many of the drums songs (stand alone drums, not drums within another song) can be 10 minutes or so long, and often contain very low (below 40Hz) frequencies which also makes achieving 100db easy. I personally like to "feel" bass, not just "hear" it.

The loudest I've recorded on my meter is 107db, during the Nirvana song Breed (from 10/31/91, live at the paramount DVD). In this case I was intentionally attempting to crank the volume for the sake of "checking" how loud it could go, and with whatever clarity or distortion. I maintained that level for nearly the entire song, listening at different spots in the room and measuring SPL at different spots, in particular further away from the speakers. I'm well aware that as distance from the sound source doubles, one could expect a decrease of 6db. This was essentially what I was reading. My PLP is approximately 7 feet of so from the speakers, and at the PLP I was getting readings that were consistent with a 10 db or reduction from the measurement at the speaker.

I also believe my system is capable of even more sound pressure, however, I'm reluctant to play at levels over 100db for any sustained period for various reasons, none of which have to do with system capabilities or sound quality.

If you take the SPL meter while music is playing moderately loud, say average 90 to 95 dB, and measure the SPL in room corners you will notice they are much higher than the average SPL.

Hello Geoffkait. I shall try measuring in the corners at moderate SPL. In my particular case, the way my listening room "opens up", the only corners I could take a measurement at would be the front wall (behind the speakers). And I have bass traps in those corners. I haven’t measured the SPL anywhere behind my speakers. But as I measure from the front, invariably the SPL is reduced the further away from the speakers I go. But its interesting what you are stating, and I shall attempt some corner readings at my next measurement opportunity.

Awesome. If that is continuous at 107 dB (not just peaks) at the listening position that is indeed very loud - more than anyone would care to listen for more than a short period. Congrats!

Hell shadorne. Yes, that SPL is continuous, however, in fairness it should be noted that (a) I have two speakers firing during music playback, so of course I realize that even though I’m in front of one speaker, some sound from the other is effecting the measurements and (b) one thing which my multi meter lacks is a "hold" feature, whereby it would remain at the top most SPL level. I have to watch it, and it does fluctuate. But the 107db I mentioned in my previous example is easily achievable (with the right source music). And by the way, in the case of Nirvana, most of their music when played very loud makes it somewhat difficult to distinguish distortion from Kurt’s normal vocal intentions :)


EDIT:

By the way, somewhat related.... I never realized how convenient it is to have a an amp with a remote control. In my case, even though I primarily listen in the mid 80’s SPL, often is the case that just a minute or so passage of music within a particular song warrants (in my mind anyway) playing louder/lower with respect to the rest of the song. The remote make it rather convenient to raise/lower even by just a few (5?) db within the same song.

Further @shadorne....

BTW 110 dB is more than 8 times louder than 100...so above 95 db SPL (the max for most speakers at the listening position) it gets very hard very quickly to deliver full dynamic range. (110 dB being 32 times louder than 95 dB)

I’m not sure your statement (quoted immediately above) is accurate. I’ve always been of the understanding that +3db is twice the power, +10db is twice the perceived volume.

By inspection open rooms will not support the pressures that a closed room will. For better or worse.

@geoffkait

Agreed. Of course at some point my room is "closed". My listening environment dimensions are 12ft wide, 35ft long, 8ft feet high ceilings. It’s because I’m in a 7 foot equilaterial triangle that I consider it open with respect to back wall corners. My speakers are about 4 feet from the front wall.

3 dB is twice the volume mathematically

Perception of a doubling in sound depends on the individual as well as the absolute loudness and frequency - so it is not really precise.

@shadorne

I disagree. 3 db is twice the power. 10 db is (approximately) twice the loudness.

I submit the following article (one of many) as proof to my claim

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/musFAQ.html#add

EDIT: but I do agree with you that "loud" is subjective

@shadorne 

The article that you provided indicates: 

"Expressed as a formula, the intensity of a sound in decibels is 10 log10 (S1/S2), where S1 and S2 are the intensity of the two sounds; i.e., doubling the intensity of a sound means an increase of a little more than 3 dB."

The article I provided indicates (among other text, and significantly more comprehensive than the article you provided):

"you'll see that doubling the sound pressure gives an increase of four in the intensity, so an increase in the sound level of 6 dB, whereas doubling the power increases the intensity by a factor of two, so an increase of 3 dB."

So given your latest post there appears to be no disagreement, or any offense to Rod Serling. 

But this is very different than your statement that I disagreed with. You stated, "3 dB is twice the volume mathematically". Can you provide a link to support that (volume, not power)?

I can assure you, physical laws and the work of greats such as  Alexander Graham Bell are not in question here.

All I know is the Doors, L.A. Woman sounds best cranked!

Absolutely! 

Another point is that I was talking about SPL at the listening position. (in my case 4.0 meter)
I now realize that some measure 107 dba at 2 feet.

@han_n

Hello han. Just letting you know that I’m aware that you are referring to sound pressure at the listening position. You clearly stated that as the first post in the thread.

However.....

In a subsequent post you made in this thread, dated 03-04-2018 8:57am, you wrote "....people admit listening at levels up to 100 or more dba at the listening position. I’m not sure how they measure, but believe me, most speakers won’t even go that loud, or if they do, they will distort tremendously...."

I took that to mean that you are now stating that most speakers cannot achieve 100 db without tremendous distortion, irrespective of the listening position. And this is simply not true, despite the Soundstage measurements submitted by shadorne as evidence.

And, I previously responded to rebut the measurements by stating that (a) the distortion is at the high frequency range only and is in fact linear at the lower frequencies, which has substantially greater impact on the ability to produce high sound pressure levels, (b) "tremendous" can be a matter of opinion, and if one believes a 1db deviation from linear is tremendous then that’s okay too, (c) live rock music at high levels also features a degree of distortion and (d) maximum speaker sound pressure level can be inferred from manufacturer specifications of sensitivity and maximum power handling capability. Now if I were to use manufacturer specification applicable to my speakers, Golden Ear Triton Reference, I could conclude that they could produce (approximate) 125db! Of course, I do realize that likely isn't possible (and certainly not practical), however, reducing that number by say 10db (to 115db) I do believe is very doable. And I’m sure there are many other speakers that can produce those levels as well.

@shadorne

I’m hopeful to have a more technical and comprehensive response to your 03-05-2018 12:34pm post.

However, at face value I see no issue. In fact, the non-linearity data that you are now reporting I previously disclosed.

As I look at the graphs (both 90 and 95 db "Deviation from linearity" charts), I note the left margin in both cases represents decibels, *and the resolution is in 1 db increments*! So yes, you are correct in your observation of the data, but incorrect in your interpretation of the data.

The largest deviation from linearity is not more than 3 db, and this is at roughly - and only - 3500Hz. The linearity is basically flat (less than 1 db deviation) from 50Hz all the way through roughly 2500Hz.

In any case, as I stated, I shall attempt to obtain a response beyond that of my own.

This seems to be yet another case where you are passing judgement solely on the basis of measurement data (instead of considering the sound), as you do with your DAC.

Have you heard the Triton Reference speakers?

EDIT:

By the way shadorne, as I peruse the soundstage site for measurement data of speakers other than the GET T Refs, I note there are none with perfectly flat linearity. For example, the focal sopra 2, which costs a kewl 5 grand more than the T Refs, also has linearity issues - by your criteria. http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1445:nrc-measurements...

@shadorne 

As I promised to obtain a response beyond that of my own, the following comes courtesy of Golden Ear forum moderator.....
---------------------
The "non-linearity" he's referring to, and the associated distortion, is extremely low, inaudibly low, and insignificant compared to ALL the other benefits of the HVFR tweeter. Both the magazines that this data comes from LOVED the speakers and said nothing about this insignificant issue in their reporting of the measurements.

You added the word "irrespective". I’m sure you do understand that this is the key here. 100 dba at 2 feet, or 100 dba at -for example- 20 feet DOES differ, and so does the distortion.

Hello @han_n

Not to belabor this, and frankly at this pointy I’m looking to conclude the matter, but you do realize that I didn’t add the word irrespective to your quotation. I used that word in my statement.

Secondly, I agree with you and understand that 100 dba at 2 feet, or 100 dba at 20 feet differs, however, in our examples herein it differs on account of the spl the speaker is producing,  which is typically (manufacturer specs) measured 1 meter from it. So in order to achieve the same db further from the speaker, the speaker needs to be playing louder (emanating more sound pressure). And of course, distortion will increase as the spl increases.

You will find few if any speakers that Soundstage found capable of true high fidelity at 95 dB and above. We agree on that point.

Hello @shadorne

No, we do not agree. I suspect this boils down to what you and I consider "true high fidelity". It seems to me you believe true high fidelity is "scientifically perfect sound reproduction as measured with the most precise device known" as opposed to "this sounds fantastic, authentic and enjoyable".

+1 @geoffkait

And coming from me that’s a rave! :)

As far the definition of Decibel you found it. Sound intensity or volume indeed doubles for roughly each 3dB in SPL which is a mathematical certainty due to the formula.

Nope!

Shadorne. Apparently you have as much of a problem reading as you do listening. 

In my 03-04-2018 7:00pm post to which you refer, you can note that this article http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/musFAQ.html#add **DOES NOT** include the word "volume" (with respect to doubling every 3db).

You are confusing "intensity" and "volume", believing (incorrectly so) that they are one and the same.

This post of mine is rather apropos at this time, and for this particular thread, IMO.

Besides the fact that the new Stereophile Recommended Components issue is out and the Triton Reference is listed in CLASS A - FULL RANGE, and happens to be the **least expensive** member of that very-elite group, by a factor of 2x, consider the following very recent review from Audio Esoterica.

https://www.goldenear.com/images/reviews/Triton_Reference_Audio_Esoterica_Jan%202018.pdf

Among other accolades, read what the article has to say about lack of distortion and also "regularly cracking sound pressure levels of more than 100dBSPL at the listening position".

EDIT:

...No offences intended. Disagreement is healthy and that is how we all learn.

@shadorne

No offense taken, and I appreciate your making it clear none was intended. Additionally, to your point about disagreement being healthy and this is how we can learn, I agree with you completely. Thanks.