As stated above:
JVC's Digital K2 machine regenerates clock signals ..The Harmonix Reimyo DAP-777 20bit K2 DAC incorporates the JVC 20bit K2 D/A converter,The core of the K2 contains an exclusive process in the generation of an
analog sine wave, which facilitates the outputting of a full, 20-bit
analog signal at the output terminals. Ergo it reclocks with known efficacy.
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In simple terms, digital jitter in an actual music recording or digital stream is virtually inaudible except under very rare circumstances.
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,109948.0.html Nonsense and misinformation. I would never have been able to get multiple best of shows at RMAF, Newport and LAAS if the jitter in my system was equal to that from the Sonos. NFW. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
In simple terms, digital jitter in an actual music recording or digital stream is virtually inaudible except under very rare circumstances.
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,109948.0.html Nonsense and misinformation. I would never have been able to get multiple best of shows at RMAF, Newport and LAAS if the jitter in my system was equal to that from the Sonos. NFW. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
If @audioengr’s measurements are accurate, the SONOS Connect has 9ns of jitter (which I see in the table on the graph, but then for his product, I see it reading 70psec and not 7psec, so not sure), and if your DAC does not jitter reduction, 9ns translates to a noise floor that’s -68dBFS (CD is -96dBFS) or a bit more than 11Bits. Now, he also states that’s a difference of 450x, I don’t know where that number comes from, as the time difference is >1200x more, the bit-depth is <2x more, and the number of bits is ~800x more. Look at all of the peaks in the Sonos jitter, not just one. The jitter from the SM is 450 times smaller than the Sonos. The SM has only one peak. As for what is audible, this depends on how good your system is and how good your ears are. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I have been on fence for a while to try the Wyrd4sound mod. Not sure if it would improve the SQ even if jitter is eliminated at its source. I modded digital component for 10 years before I started designing my own components. There is NO WAY to get the kind of result by modding a Sonos that you get with a Synchro-Mesh, and they probably cost about the same. You can also use the Synchro-Mesh to reduce jitter from other sources, like transport, AppleTV, Smart TV etc.. Like I said, try different sources and cables to your DAC. If you hear differences, then the Synchro-Mesh will probably improve things audibly. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
My Reimyo DAP-777 does reclock. So.. does the Sonos mod add anything? I doubt it. You need really low jitter to hear a significant difference. A good test is to try different sources playing the same track or change the S/PDIF coax cable. If you hear improvements or changes, then the DAC will respond well to lower jitter and it will probably be audible on your system. If you don't hear a difference, then it may be your system masking the improvement or the DAC reclocking actually works. Most of them don't do much. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
If you say most DAC’s with internal reclockers also benefit from the lower jitter input signal.....then wouldn’t it better to use Wyrd4Sound internal mod for Sonos Connect? I doubt it. I have many customers with Sonos mods that added my Synchro-Mesh and they are flabbergasted at the improvement. With your Synchro-Mesh, you’re adding one extra BNC cables, external component (shelf space) plus a wall wart power supply......all this would make sense if your relocker performance far outweighs the Wyrd4Sound internal mod. It does, by orders of magnitude. My Synchro-Mesh is the hottest selling product I have designed in 22 years, and I don't advertise. This is all word-of-mouth sales. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
@jefflz virtually inaudible except under very rare circumstances Pretty much. If @audioengr’s measurements are accurate, the SONOS Connect has 9ns of jitter (which I see in the table on the graph, but then for his product, I see it reading 70psec and not 7psec, so not sure), and if your DAC does not jitter reduction, 9ns translates to a noise floor that’s -68dBFS (CD is -96dBFS) or a bit more than 11Bits. Now, he also states that’s a difference of 450x, I don’t know where that number comes from, as the time difference is >1200x more, the bit-depth is <2x more, and the number of bits is ~800x more. Also keep in mind that the noise floor in 11Bit is still audible, but faintly so. Most all music/tv/movies have 105dB as their peaks/clipping point, and most rooms don’t have a noise floor lower than 30dBC (my open-floorplan living room is ~46dBC, using an actual calibrated mic, not a phone app) even if treated with a good amount of acoustic panels. 105-30=75, not far off from 68. This is also why 24Bit offers no audible benefit for listening, higher bit-depth is only useful for the actual production of the music as they can gain the various recordings of the instruments and whatnot while still having a low noise floor. |
mzkmxcv seems to have it right. After considerable additional online research I found another excellent discussion forum with informed contributors that explains that digital jitter (unlike the analog jitter of vinyl and tape) relates only to frequency modulation, has nothing to do with stereo stage or presence and is lost in the noise floor of any decent modern digital recording. In simple terms, digital jitter in an actual music recording or digital stream is virtually inaudible except under very rare circumstances. https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,109948.0.html |
@lalitk
I do not, but as stated, even an $80 DAC can reduce jitter to beyond human audibility (not present in 16Bit content either).
Also, do you know what jitter sounds like? It sounds like radio static. Jitter has nothing to do with soundstage as you stated. Soundstage can only be affected (before reaching the speakers) by something such as channel crosstalk, not an increased noise floor, the soundstage in an 8Bit file is the same as in a 32Bit file.
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mp3? on Sonos? I only use flac from a linked 2Tb NAS or a lossless Deezer service account.
I did one experiment when Deezer went lossless on Sonos. I played a CD through my Mark Levinson No. 37 transport and my Reimyo DAP777 DAC and compared it to the same source being streamed via Deezer lossless through Sonos Connect with Bridge using the same Reimyo DAC-- easy to switch between them-
No audible difference. Some of the remastered CD's on Deezer are actually better than my old originals. This is not hard proof of anything but it suggests that the story is not simple.
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@mzkmxcv,
Do you own a SONOS Connect to make an suggestion like...no benefits can be heard from any mods to reduce jitter at the source.
I own one and I know exactly what OP is experiencing. The Connect Box has a very lackluster soundstage and no decent DAC can entirely eliminate incoming jitter. That’s part of the problem, the other issue is it’s mp3 compressed audio.
I have been on fence for a while to try the Wyrd4sound mod. Not sure if it would improve the SQ even if jitter is eliminated at its source.
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@jefflz
As I stated out in my initial comment. Do not worry, your signal is audibly pristine if using any competent DAC, no benefits can be heard through any mods to reduce jitter at the source, such mods can only be heard if your DAC is incompetent by modern standards. |
Steve,
If you say most DAC’s with internal reclockers also benefit from the lower jitter input signal.....then wouldn’t it better to use Wyrd4Sound internal mod for Sonos Connect?
With your Synchro-Mesh, you’re adding one extra BNC cables, external component (shelf space) plus a wall wart power supply......all this would make sense if your relocker performance far outweighs the Wyrd4Sound internal mod. |
Here is the directly measured jitter from a Sonos connect: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154310.0 Any reclocker will reduce this jitter and improve the SQ, the question is: How much? Most DAC’s with internal reclockers also benefit from the lower jitter input signal of the Synchro-Mesh because the PLL loop filter is more stable, reducing the jitter of the internal PLL clock. There are a couple of exceptions, including the Benchmark DAC3. The optimum scenario is to use a DAC without internal reclocker and drive it directly with Synchro-Mesh. Then you get the full benefit of extremely low jitter. Examples are Metrum and Border Patrol DAC's. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
My Reimyo DAP-777 does reclock. So.. does the Sonos mod add anything?
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OP:
What he said.
It is very DAC dependent. I've had the Remedy and used it with a Squeezebox Touch.
With an ARC DAC 8 - There was a significant improvement
With the MyteK Brooklyn - Not noticeable.
Something else I noticed at the same time was that the DAC 8 plays hi resolution music much better than it plays redbook.
The Brooklyn plays both equally well.
So .... YMMV. Older DAC's, and Jitttery streamers are the best uses of a reclocker.
Best,
E
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It depends which DAC you have, as their ability to reduce jitter is all different. However, the $80 Grace SDAC to the $100 Schiit Magni 3 to the $250 SMSIL SU8 to the $1800 Benchmark DAC3B all have no issues reducing jitter to well below audible levels. |
