Does a DAC power supply matter? Yes. I have an MSB Discrete DAC. It comes with a single external power supply, but they recommend 2. I thought that the DAC sounded good, but when I added the separate Premier Power Base, it kicked the DAC’s performance up to a new level. Its hard to describe, but everything sounded more “forceful.”
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Thanks @adg101 ! |
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This is why I am an advocate of listening. My Pro-Ject RS2T CD transport comes with a SMPS wall wart. I have to say well implemented due to the very high quality of sound. Yet, when I replaced the SMPS with a Fidelizer Nikola II LPS there was an undeniable improvement in the sound quality. So a transition from very good to superb. Charles |
The ones with wall warts can also have decent filtering built into them internally after the DC comes in. I think it is easy to put the whole enchilada into a big and heavy box and it gives the impression of quality. But how do we know that it’s better, and not just ‘feel’ like it is better? It would be great if we knew how to do that. |
Large and strong cannot explain things well when the output voltage is 1V and the impedance requires <~1mA. That is <~ 1mW, so it must be something other than large/strong. I can abide better filtering, but that can be done pretty cheaply… There are few places for the energy in a large storage bank of capacitors where the energy can go in order to drain out. |
Spot on! Factual and well stated. High quality power supply and analog sections are critical and what separates the wheat from the chaff with regard to the sound quality of the DAC. This in my opinion is very obvious if one were to actually listen and compare. Despite their impressive test bench measurements, the inexpensive DACs just don’t offer the same high quality of sound. Corners are being cut to maintain the cheaper price point. A price is paid for the significant compromise.Again, just listen. Charles |
Audio lovers need to realize that a DAC is not just a digital to analog converter. It also must amplify the analog signal to a reference output voltage making it useable to the preamp, integrated amp or power amp in some cases. The analog amplification circuitry is typically very minimal in inexpensive DACs. This is where the opportunity is to greatly improve the sound quality. The best DACs and CD players for example pay much more attention to the analog amplification section circuitry. This is where the large power supply enters the picture (the best use low noise r-core transformers, e.g. Luxman) in addition to filtering and storage capacitor banks. Look under the hood ! How does a great analog section affect the sound? Superior low noise performance and a lively, exciting micro and macro dynamic sound with lots of energy. The sound of basic DACs is underwhelming by comparison. Get one and you will know what I mean. |
I assumed we were talking about long term comparisons in one's own system. Quick A/B comparison in audio showrooms won't tell much. Don't want to go in depth on this, but I recall doing the quick A/B comparisons back in the day. Nearly every audio showroom had multiple components on display, all connected to switch board. Salesmen would do the old switcheroo on you, these guys were real magicians in fooling you into preferring most expensive components. This was good learning experience for a couple of budding audiophiles. Ever since then proponents of blind testing regime have caused a chuckle. |
Yeah @charles1dad ^that^ works.
But when two units can both be shown to measure well, then it is doubtful that there is a lot left to hear. |
I am afraid that I don’t follow your reasoning. If he were to purchase the inexpensive DAC, he owns it. He can then do comparative listening over what ever period of time he chooses. There’s no better way than direct comparison in one’s own audio system. Charles |
I don’t think it works that way, unless maybe one brings their own ear phones. The room and the music have a huge effect, so the idea of being able to AB with an hour or two of time is not going to happen.
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You ask a good question - but I think ultimately what you’ve come across is a case of people dismissing (or perhaps minimizing) the performance of a component under the misguided notion that price or fancy parts is an indication of how a piece of gear performs.
So why does an inexpensive component measure well? Adhering to good engineering and design principles most likely. What about all the hubbub over different power transformer types, discrete circuits and custom digital filters? It’s really all just marketing in the end.
If you decide to compare the Yggy to something like the Topping D90 SE, then I highly suggest removing this type of psychological priming through a blind test. You can draw inspiration from this Wikipedia article on ABX testing. Not knowing which source you’re listening to (and probably keeping your eyes closed) during testing helps you to judge solely on sound quality. Don’t forget to pay attention to the section labeled ’Confidence’. |
+2 @charles1dad @nonoise |
Astute observation! I enjoy open discussion forums and the various opinions and points of view. Perspectives I do not agree with can nonetheless be stimulating and thought provoking. Needless to say I suppose is that we all have our limits. In my case I hold little regard for those who display a glaring disregard (Mocking) for the gift of hearing and concentrated listening. We are endowed with this very special and vital sense for a reason. When measurements are revered and reliance on hearing is dismissed or sneered upon, something is vastly out of kilter.Audio components are sought for the single purpose of hearing them perform as intended, listening to recorded music. Why is this activity for some, downplayed and replaced with infatuation with numbers and instrument derived test results? How is this possibly of more value than using one’s own ears? Not scientific enough ? Both have value and measurements have meaningful application. In my opinion the listening process to judge audio merit has far greater significance.
Charles |
Even if you do a comparison between two DACs--one with a huge power supply and one without, how do you attribute any difference in sound, if there is any, to the power supplies when everything else is different? The entire design and implementation matters. It really comes down to the ASR measurement-is-everything approach vs. subjective listening. I can think of nothing better for showing how little measurement really tells one about a DAC than going to an Audio Note dealer and listening to something like a DAC 5 (or any of their lesser DACs). The Audio Note DACs measure so poorly, deliver waveforms that are almost totally unrecognizable from sine waves, that they should not be able to produce any music at all. Do the audition and tell me if that is what you hear. |
@tuberist Send it to Amir and find out exactly how badly you got screwed with this DAC. You could’ve just bought a $99 Chinese reference DAC that measures perfectly. Also, don’t forget to dig into that storage bin to pull some basic audio cables that came with your vcr 30 years ago. They’re just as good as high end cables. All you gotta do is just peel that yellow video cable off the RCA L/R and your all set! |
ASR created a following of minions who like their opinions to be formed for them by someone else. Amir’s tests and measurements are questionable as he strives to “debunk” the high end “myths” and that’s how he gets his subcribers/audience. |
I agree! |
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Why do audiophiles feel a need to distort the truth? (There is another word for it). Be honest about what they really say. Come on, you can do it. Do I have to do it for you?
Perhaps you see the dissonance in the two statements you just posted. Or perhaps you do not.
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When someone first decides to get into Hi-End HIFI they are usually shocked by the prices. Well ASR plays up to this with you can get a $15k DAC for $150.00 and all cables sound the same and the like. As others have said the only things you can trust are your ears and ASR completely discourages listening tests because they are unscientific...lol. Yeah I would really enjoy listing to a cheap a$$ DAC with terrific specs rather than a DAC packed full of world class components that measures like a donkey’s hind leg but sounds divine. Please remember tube amps normally have around 1.5% distortion but most people love them, so the tiny amount of DAC distortions being measured are irrelevant if you’re running tubes or even SS for that matter. And in answer to your question, all equipment benefits from good power, low noise power supplies. |
@charles1dad +1 Good answer! Mike |
Yes, experience it yourself @koestner, but keep in mind comparing two products with very similar sounds requires more than just swapping them in and out and getting an impression. A simple small volume difference will create far more of a sound difference than swapping the two DACs ever will as will anything that impacts frequency response. Saying that, your Schiit Yggdrasil has some questionable performance that is far enough off "accurate" to be audible. You asked about power supplies? Well the ones, objectively in the Yggdrasil are really crappy ... or at least the ability of the product to negate the effects of the power supply. The effect is the same. Also appears to be issues with single ended (RCA outputs) that are substantial (easily could be audible). You won’t note it as a flaw, but it will sound different from something else if compared. Being acclimatized to what you have, something new and different may not be viewed better, especially when it is a frequency response change.
If I am not mistaken, after being constantly pilloried, for good reason, in ASR reviews, Schitt went out and bought some proper test equipment and fixed their design issues. Their later DACs measure much better. |
Charles has the answer, experience the difference for yourself. I'd suggest the dacs with lesser power supplies may resolve very well, lack in substantive, analog like sound qualities. This has been my experience and others based on subjective reviews I've observed.
My only direct experience was Perpetual Technologies digital setup from many years ago, Between Modwright and my own mods, this was Frankenstein setup, nearly every part changed over the years, lots of power supply mods as well. PS mods were important, better filtering and greater supply resulted in higher resolving, more natural sound quality, greater micro/macro dynamics. |
@koestner, it is understandable when all the people commenting are telling you that this level of performance must be impossible the way they are designed. However, all these replies telling you that have one thing in common. They are all made by people who are not EEs, and who lack any significant amount of electronics design experience. What they are telling you comes from product marketing sheets, not from real world knowledge and experience designing these types of products or similar types of electronics products.
@holmz , no the AP does not have a crazy high input impedance. A few minutes of Google would have shown it to have 100K resistor in parallel with 100pF, or very close to most pre-amps and amps that we would use. It also has selectable 600/300R termination.
@koestner , the units were measured and achieved the performance measured. That cannot be explained away any more than the units that were measured and measured poorly obtained that level of performance. All the excuses in the world does not change that.
Where I personally would be concerned about the performance I may achieve in my system would be with USB on the lowest cost units due to the lack of isolation. This could result in ground related noise from the DAC connected and the next device in the audio chain. If this is the case, though, you will hear that noise in the quiet passages of the music. If you don't, draw your own conclusions. Audiophiles like to repeat phantom, effectively non-audible noise sources they read about on data sheets. A few minutes on Google and you will find USB isolation products for a few hundred dollars.
Below are pictures of two well respected DACs even within this community. One uses a simple 12V external wall wart. One uses an internal, what looks like an off the shelf switching power supply. In both, all internal voltages are generated on board. If you look at the second one, the layout is pretty tight. Other than the enclosed power supply (metal case adds a few dollars to cost at most), there are no fancy shields, no special compartments for each section, No esoteric capacitors or resistors. However, while many audiophiles do not like its sound or more specifically its lack of sound, no one seems to question the validity of the performance it achieves.
This is a $300 product. It has less features. It does not have many big electrolytic capacitors, but it has lots of tantalum capacitors (rectangular yellow things) which many other boards do not. Properly used they can fulfill similar functions. If you look at the DAC sections, they are not all that different. Their higher end product which achieves even better performance and has more features does have more complexity and obvious power components, but does not squeeze that much more performance out.
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Are you paying too much? I am a firm believer in the quality of power supply and parts matter significantly and separate the good components from the not so good. If you find the frequently praised low-cost (Well measuring) DACs to equal your more expensive one, then you could make the argument that you overspent. personally, I would be surprised if this was the outcome. But in this scenario, it’s your ears and your audio system. Just do comparative listening. Charles |
Have you considered the obvious answer? They are engineered very well? There are other higher priced dacs with light power supplies. RME ADI 2 uses an external brick. Benchmark have light weight internal switching supplies. |
While I totally get the argument for beefier power supplies, and it's probably never wrong for a DAC to have one/them, but life once again showed me nothing is universally true, with a wonderful sounding DAC (MHDT Orchid) that's light as a feather, and thus I no idea if a power supply needs to be heavy in order to be of high quality. Interested in what others think about this. |
The source is the most important part of the system (after a certain price - almost all modern speakers and amplifiers sound acceptable). Dirty food generates/exacerbates jitter. |
