Redkiwi, I have been having this discussion with the "measurement people" since the day I started on this board.(and long before) It doesn't matter what you say, if they can't measure it, they don't think it exists. Very simple, and I have come to accept that they will never think any other way. Even though you could have 2 tubes that are (different brand)exact replacements for each other, and test exactly the same, they have different sound. Even though you could have 2 capacitors that have exactly the same capacitance, and they sound different. Etc. Etc. Until the day that Triplett makes a meter that has a "Sound Quality" setting on its dial, these guys will never believe it. It's because they don't know how to go about measuring what needs to be measured, so they blame it on others' "psychological perceptions". This is not new, it was going on in the 70s, when these same guys all told us that any amp with .00001% measured distortion(like a $199 Sansui) sounded as good as a $10k audiophile amp(or even better because the $10k amp didn't measure as well). The measurements proved it, and we were all "out to lunch" for spending $10k on our amps. Whoops! They screwed up on their measurement procedures, didn't they? All that global feedback actually did screw things up, didn't it? But boy, it measured good, and that was all that mattered. I would have thought that after 20+ years, people would have woken up, but apparently that is not the case. Meter in hand, they are still preaching the "Bench Tech Gospel". Now, to be fair, there are some worthwhile measurements, and I use them for what they are good for. They can tell you some things. But that's all. When I want to hear what equipment sounds like, I listen to it, I don't plug it into an oscilloscope.
As you say, and as is evidenced by "real scientists" like quantum researchers, there are things that are beyond our ability to measure, but are real. The problem is not with the existence/non-existence of these things, but our ability to measure them. Science lags behind, and is nothing more than an attempt to measure and explain things that we percieve. To state that something cannot exist because we lack the measurement skills to quantify it, is turning science on its head, and is very unscientific, to say the least. When they say that it is like "instrument flying" with need to rely on instruments, they are being genuine, and really think that it is the same thing, and are really trying to be helpful.
I don't expect any of the "measurement people" to agree with me on this, because it is sort of like any other "epiphany" experience. Until you realize it, you think people who have, are nuts.
So I just accept these people at the level that they are at, and don't expect them to understand. They are operating at a level that many here have surpassed years ago, and not everybody in this hobby operates at the same level. Of course, there is some "snake oil" out there too, and most experienced people can "sniff that out" without much trouble. I try not to argue too much about this, because it is useless, for the most part, and non-productive, and generally just gets people pissed-off. Ocassionally, like today, I'll post something about it. I don't really blame anyone for taking this position, because they actually think they are right. So it's up to us to make sure others know that there is more to this than meets the meter's needle.
I'll probably get flamed for this, but my opinion is as good as the next guy's. Unfortunately, we don't have an "opinion meter" to measure which is correct.
