Let's see: we've had the pebbles, the little clock, the turntable platform that includes only some old springs...and now the Contact Paper CD tweek. Do any of us believe in this? I know Geoff's an advertiser, and actually a very nice guy, but come on, fellow audiophiles...this is all the epitome of snake oil! No? Every idea was tried, and has failed, numerous times. Despite being a nice guy, all he's selling is audio nonsense.
Dude my post was a joke read the other posts on this thread, the basis and content of the tread itself, that is what should be offensive to you, not me saying Californians are...........now lets be politically correct Steve...........Gullible....No cant say that... Weird...No...Like voted for the Terminator...NO...................Would be more likely to buy a phone call that would transcendentally change the space time continuum as we know it.
YES THAT'S IT!!!
Would be more likely to buy a phone call that would transcendentally change the space time continuum as we know it.
Im going with that one and hope it is politically correct for the people in America.
Now your gonna say I pissed of another 301,139,947
For a long time now the only interesting thing about this and related threads has been to observe how they can bring out some of our most regrettable tendencies as human beings, and how the fundamental debate between believers and skeptics within a trivial arena like audio gear mirrors that of real life.
The 'rationalists' on this thread (and I count myself among them -- not that I necessarily agree with everything they've written here, but I do share their judgement concerning MD, their products, and Mr. Kait), by their own lights, should certainly acknowledge the eternal truth that belief cannot be 'argued out' of people or the world. Trying to use persuasive discourse, or mere put-downs, to convince satisfied MD users of the 'error' of their ways is as pointless -- and wrong -- as an atheist (like me) trying to use 'science' to convince a believer of the non-existence of God. As we should all know, science *cannot* disprove the existence of a diety. And that's a scientific fact.
For the guys who refuse to let this tiresome and futile shouting match die an overdue death, you might want to pause a moment to consider what continuing this appears to say about how much else more worthwhile in life you have going on...(hint: YOU CAN'T "WIN"!)
The subject was do we believe in Machina Dynamics and I put in my two penny worth about I think it is crap. But it seems that this has gotten to be slaging matches between a few members sometimes with posts that do not even reference the original subject just he's an ass or he's an idiot.
The original subject was and always will be a magnet for heated discussion between the enlightened few and people not from California.
I would like to suggest that we kept this discussion civil and factual, keeping open minds as to the improvements a plastic duplex cover or a telephone call can make.
That said I think MD is crap and you have to be a total idiot with more money than sense to buy this garbage. (Or live in California)
Samuel, a long time ago I agreed with several who emailed me that I should just stop posting on another thread. I have tried, but unsuccessfully. I guess it is because those who I respond to claim to be representative of science and I think they pretend to be only. Even Geoff does enter into this exchange, although it is not just his tweaks that motivate my postings. The end.
Wow, as many times as it may have been used on this forum in the past, the term "beat to death" is a gross understatement regarding this topic and the endlessly circular nature of the related posts... tune in tomorrow to see who had..."The Last Word" in syndication here at Audiogon...
For those attacking: The constant chat fuss would seem only to serve continued interest and "buzz" in the very products you think are junk. Ignoring products that _depend_ on internet buzz and cotroversy to sell would seem a more effective tack. My guess is that B&M, HT and custom-install sales of these products aren't exactly booming. Ever wonder why thread after thread on the topic keeps appearing on a site that is likely the sole generator of sales for those products? I know what Arsenio would say... :-)
Norm, getting into endless ad-homien exchanges does not serve anyones interests in the long run. It's not like your point becomes more clear after 50 posts and arguments than it was after your initial posted opinion. This looks just like the H-Cat thread where well enough couldn't be left alone. Lots of time and band-width wasted restating the same thing and arguing with anything that didn't move in your direction. Looks a little missionary-like to the uninformed.
It looks like everybody made their point like thrty posts ago. I've seen more insightful and entertaining scrums over leggos at the local daycare.
Is there anyone here that doesn't believe that Tooly is totally ignorant and trying to persuade people that they should not just let their ears decide for them? I just want to know who appointed Tooly, Audiofool, and Jeffrey to police their interests in improving their audio?
Jeffrey, sorry I hit a nerve by pointing out your typical meaningless posts. By the way a rationale is a liturgical vestment worn by clergy, in particular by Bishops, in the Roman Catholic Church which uses full vestments. wikipedia Perhaps you do view yourself as a bishop, although others know you are incapable of anything more than mocking others. You make unfounded statements with no backing. Grow up!
And is the Detroit Lion fan comment anything but ad hominem?
Norm:
Go back to bed. No one is talking to you.
If you can't fall back asleep, re-read your rich history of posting on this and other sites: you are the absolute last person who should be criticizing others for personal attacks. You have mastered that tactic -- perhaps not surprisingly, given your inability to defend your positions with rationale thought.
Jeffrey, what is the evidence behind your "vastly overpay" statement? And is the Detroit Lion fan comment anything but ad hominem? I guess this is your usual meaningless attack.
I purchased the Brilliant Pebbles through Auctions. Weather these items are technical marvels or just common ordinary items,I really dont know. But, they do help improve the soundstage!
ozzy: from you system pics, i gather that you are Detroit Lions fan. guess that would explain your willingness to vastly overpay for something that you acknowledge to be a "common ordinary item."
A root-channel is the same single imposter Audiofool and Wc65Mustang..Its all in the Audiogon posts. Take a look back in history its the same paid advertiser. Tom
Audiofool when are you going to be driving the Wc65Mustang again? We miss that narly old ride around here. I suppose he has the same exact system as you. You could both be negative again from the same computer and the same home. Tom
I purchased the Brilliant Pebbles through Auctions. Weather these items are technical marvels or just common ordinary items,I really dont know. But, they do help improve the soundstage!
Just as perhaps hanging a rug on the wall improves reflection, some guy can sell rugs that are claimed Audio quality and descibe in detail the technical marvals of that rug. In the end its still a rug .
Dont blame the guy for coming up with items that DO improve the soundstage and trying to market it.
I guess the answer to the base question of the thread is that some do not believe in any MD tweaks and some believe in some of them and these are people who have tried them.
My only question is, why was this posted in "tech talk"? There is no "tech" to MD's placebo gee-gaws. If only 'Gon had a forum called "Suckers Club"...
They fixed the voice over in the previous re re lease of the directors cut. All of those are previous to the re re re lease thats coming soon.. I do love this movie and its director. This movie is like this thread much the same rehash . Once in a generation there is some new distant connection made again thou certainly not from the myopic point of few. Tom
Great movie Blade Runner. One of those mind bending Philip K Dick stories - Ridley Scott did a great job on that movie. I don't like the voice over and apparentl ythey will fix this in the new Blu-Ray version in December (with 5.1 sound too)...
So if you have some extra time on your hands, you could visit the Machina Dynamica website. On the Teleportation Tweak page, Mr Kait introduces the product with a curious quote:
Fiery the angels fell. Deep thunder rolled around their shores... Burning with the fires of Orc.
This is a quote from the movie Blade Runner, which itself quotes (with slight modification) a poem, America: A Prophecy, by William Blake. Both Blade Runner and Blake's poem have been interpreted as being anti-establishment, suggesting a need to return to the past in order to make progress. Adding to this "Back to the Future" theme, Kait uses a picture of an old-fashioned telephone to promote the Teleportation Tweak.
Any theories on what Mr Kait's message could mean? Is he rejecting modern audiophile wisdowm in favor of his own concepts? But then what is so "retro" about his approach? Perhaps the secret of the Teleportation Tweak lies in the answer to this riddle.
I can understand the wise comments , some of the comments are pretty humorous. The names of the items,(brilliant pebbles, clever clocks ,etc) seem to make them even more mysterious , strange and kinda ridiculous.
Ryder, I dont mean they increase the bass, my Andra 2's are great in that department. But, proper placement with these bottles in the room can help dial in the focus, allowing everything, including the bass to sound more defined and true. Its not a huge thing ,but an improvement neverless.
Perhaps the pebble materials are no more than anyone could gather themselves and put in a jar. I dont know, but for $20-$30 bucks they are pretty good. Good conversation pieces.
Now, what about those gold, silver or platiunum cups that sell for $$$$ that you hang on the wall ?
Not true. He has extensive experience with Doppler preamplifiers, ceramic cables and a bunch of other loser products that hit the skids as soon as they hit the market. Science be damned!!!!!
Do a forum search and you'll see a history of somebody who changes system components as frequently as most of us change socks.
I'm not making this up. If you take the time it reads like a John Irving novel.
No, I am not going to flame you and I am glad the brilliant pebbles work for you. From Geoffs white paper, I see said pebbles absorb a wide range of audio signals and RFI and EMI signals.
(It also eludes that RFI and EMI signals act like low frequency audio signals which is not quite true, but lets leave that for now)
Many companies like RPG, ABS, GIK, Auralex, Acoustic Art etc. sell products with similar, albeit not so lofty, claims. These companies send their products in for testing at laboratories and then publish the results of said tests.
Do you not think that in light of many so many skeptics, GK could shut us up by simply having the pebbles tested and publishing the results. Measuring sound absorption is hardly rocket science.
Hey Jeffrey, best is to simply ignore Norm. He has zero technical knowledge, so there is absolutely nothing to learn from him.
Seemingly his political science background has given him ample training spinning the facts, insulting others and clouding the truth. Truth be told I skip over his posts because I couldn't be bothered the read the reams of BS he posts.
Jeffrey, I guess I should be happy that you got it partially right. Given that you have a bias to misperceive everything that I say, this is all I can expect. Your apology is accepted.
Ozzy, watch out you will be called an idiot, a shill, or worse for saying that your personal experience suggests some benefit from the Brilliant Pebbles or any tweak for that matter. They think that misquoting and mockery wins the argument for them. Their behavior is like the schoolyard bully.
As I have said before my experience with the BPs initially was little impact but then with them more opportunely placed was quite favorable. Later with a new preamp, I have yet to find a placement where they do not detract from the sound. I suspect that they are so powerful that one needs to use them quite carefully.
Ok, norm. Let me see if I have it right this time. Your position is that, if we don't trust clicks on a phone might improve the sound of our audio equipmeny, we are worthy of only the cheapest equipment.
Sorry that I didn't have the intellectual capacity to understand such a compelling point the first time.
Good thing there are deep thinkers like you to keep the high end manufacturers in business.
Getting back to the original question. Yes, I think the Brilliant pebbles are usefull.
You can purchase a x-large bottle for about $20+ on an auction. Placing 2-3 of these in your room helps dial in the soundstage and supports the bass response. Dont know why , but they do. Definatly a positive product to have. I had a bottle break and Geoff quickly replaced it.
Sorry, Jeffrey, you not only quoted out of context but also misunderstand. I said, "I am sorry the threat of perception bias, what you call the placebo effect, keeps you from buying anything, less your ears deceive you. I guess all you can do is buy the cheapest gear and enjoy it." Let me explain. If you fear your ears are deceiving you, all that you can have confidence in would be the cheapest gear.
Why don't you read more closely and stop putting words in my mouth. I am sorry if logic escapes you.
Why don't you get real. On some threads you appear rational. How come on others are a real jerk?
I guess all you can do is buy the cheapest gear and enjoy it.
I knew it was just a matter of time until Norm resorted to a "my **** is bigger than yours" argument. For someone who shilling phone clicks, in the absence of any intelligent arguments, the ad hominum attcks are inevitable. But suggesting that someone can't afford to buy equipment as good as yours, Norm, is really crossing a line.
Time for you to take a refresher course on Audiogon posting guidelines and crawl back under your rock.
Paul, I can understand you thoughts on it. In whole, Geoff has some of the most odd and unusual products out there which by default opens his products up to hammering on or in the very least, question marks.
I have not seen much else outside the audiogon world so I don't have as broad of an understanding how things are handled outside of this forum.
Geoff in some sense has become the poster child for audio geeks to poke fun at. I struggle with the tearing down and beating on the guy endlessly as if the mans not human.
I don't think an explanation of his products is not an unreasonable request and think it's where this whole frustration from audiophiles develops from which may be an area Geoff went wrong in.
Tully, I am sorry the threat of perception bias, what you call the placebo effect, keeps you from buying anything, less your ears deceive you. I guess all you can do is buy the cheapest gear and enjoy it.
Freemand, I have tried several times to broaden the issue here to other tweaks, but some persist in mocking MD. Why this is so I too cannot understand. What I do know is that these threads improve Mr. Kait's sales, so I do not worry about him or his reputation. The items are so inexpensive that I think many buy them just to see for themselves. If this is the case, my dismissing the naysayers serves my purpose in painting them as illogical, unscientific, autocratic, and presumptuous of their personal judgment.
Freemand, in a prior response to you I submitted a plausible factual based argument why power cords can work. This is not to 'hammer' you, to coin your phrase, but simply to illustrate that the notion that workable tweak must somehow contradict science, is a false notion. Every workable tweak HAS a very sound and factual basis. In most cases, this can be EASILY explained, as is the case with power cords. There is no black magic in audio.
As far as GK goes. I have read some of his so called white papers. His explanations are contradictory to proven science, and have debunked all over the net. You can do a search on google. Whenever he has been challenged, including this forum, he has not started an factual debate, but resorted to insults, innuendo do and outright lies to discredit anybody that challenges his views. Interestingly, his little shills follow the same strategy.
So I have to ask, why does a person that designs a tweak not know how it works?
I cannot speak for the Brutus awards as I have never heard of them.
I have learned two things and thats about it with this forum. Some audio guys will trust their ears and don't need science and others that have to have an explanation. Its fine either way and no need to hammer one or the other.
Two, there are a certain number of people who seem determined and get off on trashing Geoff Kait.
I asked the na sayers numerous times about the clock winning the BRutus award and having great reviews by solid sources. It was always ignored cause it shows that Kait does have some good products as there seems to be a wanting to tear him down by some..
I will give you guys that the phone thing sounds a little out there, but how can I trash it with out trying it. Many say the clocks science does not make sense but the Brutus award says different.
I don't know Geoff personally nor have I ever worked with him but, I see a desire to trash a mans reputation when I see it. I respect you to not try the products and think they may not work for you, but the blatant trashing of a man??????
"Doctors in one study successfully eliminated warts by painting them with a brightly colored, inert dye and promising patients the warts would be gone when the color wore off. In a study of asthmatics, researchers found that they could produce dilation of the airways by simply telling people they were inhaling a bronchiodilator, even when they weren't. Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. Fifty-two percent of the colitis patients treated with placebo in 11 different trials reported feeling better -- and 50 percent of the inflamed intestines actually looked better when assessed with a sigmoidoscope ("The Placebo Prescription" by Margaret Talbot, New York Times Magazine, January 9, 2000) "
A crotchety old man was successfully convinced that his hearing and sound system improved after receiving a 30 second phone call. ("Baiting Norm" by Pauly, Audiogon Forum, August 31, 2007)
Loonytunz, you say, "The argument then lies not among two opposing sides afterall, because we all invest a certain amount of faith and demand a certain amount of evidence in our daily lives. It's a sliding scale that rests at a unique point for every individual." I agree. As I said long ago, when Geoff approached me to test his new phone treatment, I found it implasible. It took me some time to even have it explained that the phone itself was treated. I would not have bought it without a demonstration, but I seek evidence.
I learned some time ago after repeated experiences that some tweaks work and others do not, but that all lack really clear demonstrations of how they work.
This isn't about science or faith. It's about the gray area of plausibility.
If the latest tweak/craze involved wrapping up some dog s**t in aluminum foil and depositing it on top of your CD player, would you do it? I'd bet not, because it would cross the plausiblity threshold of nearly any sane person. Some would demand a bit of insight, and rightfully so. That is what is being alluded to as 'science' here. They (myself included) want some evidence that the claimed process, product or ritual is possible. Just a simple, plausible explanation, even sans conclusive proof. When that information is not forthcoming, most become suspicious. Again, rightfully so. Unfortunately Norm, MD products seem to set off the bulls**t detectors of many on this site, and the threshold of plausibility is breeched. Of course, it doesn't make them(us) right.
Having an open mind, or 'faith,' is the other side of this coin. Everyone has a certain amount of it, in various things. It is only interrupted by the same threshold of plausibility. How much confidence are you willing to invest in a tangible or conceptual thing without supporting evidence? If you hear an audible difference in your system, better or worse, brought forth by any kind of product, that doesn't make the difference real, nor the believer right.
The argument then lies not among two opposing sides afterall, because we all invest a certain amount of faith and demand a certain amount of evidence in our daily lives. It's a sliding scale that rests at a unique point for every individual.
P.S. I do find something wrong with being vindictive and petty in defending the indefensible. Neither side of this argument is 100% correct...
Freemand +++ Why does a $2000 dollar power cord make any difference in improving the sound +++
A power cable can filter out RFI and EMI out of the power source, which results in a cleaner B+ voltage on the rails. That leads to better sound reproduction. Simple no?
+++ Science would seem to tell me that the power cord wont help +++
No, your lack of understanding of science tells you PC wont help. The assumption that others share your lack of understanding is erroneous.
+++ Everyone has the right to let their ears determine and not some scientific method. +++
Its a free country and you have the right to do whatever you want (if legal that is). However, that does not eliminate the possibility of placebo effect nor does it diminish the fact that every tweak that actually works has a perfectly plausible scientific reason for doing so.
+++ I would trust my ears then some science geeks with a white lab coats and pocket protectors. +++
Fortunately, I have enough understanding to know when said geeks with pocket protectors are frauds. I know a phone call cannot improve sound and I dont need to spend $75 dollars to find out.
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