Is this a fishing expedition?
I nibbled, but not dumb enough to bit down.
I nibbled, but not dumb enough to bit down.
As far as the brilliant pebbles, weight loading components is pretty well excepted as a tweak that can sometimes have a positive effect. I haven't bought the pretty rocks or other expensive means to do this, but I suspect that some folks have used the pebbles to good effect. The other stuff I would not spend my money on, but what is and ain't snake oil in ALL applications is hard to be absolutely certain of. In example, to my ear and in my system, power cords are snake oil but others have found them to be capable of creating a positive effect.
This topic has, of course, been beaten nearly to death... but i can't resist.
The question raised in this thread -- do we "believe" in machina dynamica -- is perfectly stated. For at its root, the Machina Dynamic question is, as the question suggests,
a question of "belief." As such, the Machina Dynamica debate is a near perfect analog to the basic questions of religious belief; it forces us to confront the most fundamental questions of the human condition: the irreconcilable division between reason and faith.
In one camp we have the secular audiophiles. They apply reason and a scientific method to the evaluation of Machina Dynamic products. The secularists demand measurable, repeatable, and explainable evidence that a tiny little clock can produce an audible difference. Because no such evidence exists -- and even Machina Dynamica makes no attempt to suggest it does -- these secularists reject little clocks and pretty rocks as no more than a scam.
In the other camp, we have the believers. They need no "proof" as to why a blue CD cover creates extended bass response; it is sufficient for them that they believe it does. And by having faith that these products work, they actually "do" for the believers. Of course, many believers try to convert the heathen secularists by cloaking their support for Machina Dynamica products with scientific sounding explanations -- "outlet cover materials have different vibrational properties" -- but these explanations are as hollow and transparent as Intelligent Design. Reading the posts of these crusaders, one strains to accept that they even believe their own BS.
So, the debate over Machina Dynamica rages on. It is no more likely that we will develop a consensus on whether little pebbles add a sense of upper range air, as it is that we will agree on whether Jesus was the son of God or a just a humble carpenter. We can't reach this consensus because some of us appeal to reason for the answer, while others merely "believe." The bottom line is that both sides are "right" according to their own terms.
Hi for those who think Machina dynamics stuffs are snake oils have u actually tried it before u come to that conclusion? Obviously there are people who believe that the products work otherwise the products wont be appearing at audiogon advertisements so regularly right? I thought powercord were consider snake oil before it got accepted by the audio community? I believe its is not right to belittle a commercial product which we have not tried. Behind the product is a guy trying to make a living. In a democratic society like USA, there is such thing as Buyer Beware. So apply it prudently. Happy listening
We could solve this if everyone would just buy my:
"Audiophile Guru" diploma.
$1,000.00 cash in small bills sent via Western Union, to me.
In return you get your very own
audiophile Guru" diploma. Then you can Pontificate on arcane audiophilia to your hearts content.. knowing you are RIGHT! no matter what!
If I could afford one, I would have one too.
Send the money.........
One does not have to try the services of a Witch Doctor who shakes a rattle and lights some incense to know that it will likely not cure disease.
Nor does one have to try jumping out of an airplane at 10,000 feet without a parachute to know it's probably not a good idea.
Some things are just self evident.
Tvad 20 years ago, if some come out with shakti hallograph soundfield would it be claim as snake oil? What about if somebody tell you fuse can improve dynamics of yr sound system? what abt put some liquid on the Cd. Abracadabra and the sound improve. Paint some silver stuff on yr connectors or tube pins, suddenly better resolution and lower noise floor in yr system. Believable or unbelieveable or snake oil? Today we know that the above products work. I dont have the opportunity to try Machina Dynamics in Malaysia. Therefore is fair for me to refrain from claiming that it is snake oil. Knowing whether a product works or not, its all abt listening to it right? So happy listening
Audioblazer, several items you mention in your list produce effects that can be measured: electrical fuses, contact paste/liquid. Items that have a basis in physics and can be tested and measured are not snake oil.
This is the fundamental difference between snake oil products, which the Machina Dynamica products are, and non snake oil products.
So only things that we can't measure are snake oil, and things that we can measure are not. So, jitter, for instance, did not exist until it was measured, or perhaps had no basis in physics. All distortions presumably existed before our ability to measure them, if not, how could we build the measuring gear? Here is the crux of the technocentric view of evaluting audio gear.
Tvad.. It is not just jars of rocks.. But they are "special" rocks worth plenty of money? that sends me into a spin.
Want rocks? get a peanut buter jar and fill it! total cost $0.00
Of course, we have folks whose time is claimed to be worth $1,000. an hour or such, and for them, buy the damn rocks.
I would opt for semi-precious stones myself... if I had a jar of rocks.. just think how kewl!!
Not that I've tried it Audioblazer, but that Shakti Hallograph thingy strikes me as classic snake oil too -- something I say based solely on having seen it pictured and read the ad copy, which looks and sounds like unmitigated BS along the lines of Shun Mook "Spatial Control" disks and stands. Not that I doubt that anything which is a resonator and/or physically large enough will affect the soundfield to *some* degree when placed in the listening environment (the Shun Mook disks qualify as neither of those as far as I can tell), but that's also true of most all of one's listening room furnishings. What I doubt is that this particular object could always make the sound somehow "better" and be worth what's charged for it (however I don't doubt that paying a significant amount for these types of things could in some cases be key to their "effectiveness"). Then again, I haven't tried liquid on my CDs or silver paste on my connectors either...
Tvad, there is another side to it as well, if we take your example of the Witch Doctor shaking the rattle, your contention that he, or she, will not be curing any disease may be correct, but there is mounting clinical evidence that spirituality and belief can aid in the recovery process. So if you believe that the Witch Doctor can heal you, perhaps you will recoup faster. Maybe we should do an experiment to see if believeing in magic pebbles has a positive effect on hearing acuity as well.
you would not be a good candidate; you have already stated your belief system, that clocks and pebbles cannot work. I would be looking for open minded people.OK. I'm off the hook.
Still, send me the study when it's complete.
Be certain to buy matching Timex clocks and matching orange price stickers so the study participants don't know which is Machina Dynamica product and which is not. Same with the jars of pebbles.
I imagine there are many who find some MD tweaks work and many who would never try them, and even a few who try them and find no benefit. One thing is certain on the MD tweaks as well as the Acoustic Revive tweaks, we get little inclining about why the work. Lacking this many will not try them, others will. There is no concensus nor anyone really available to convert to one position or the other. In short the discussion is a waste of time.
Same with the $30 "Tru-Tone" Duplex Covers that you could purchase at Home Depot for $5.97.
Same with the "Special Helical Springs" that you could order on the internet from a hardware supply house for under $10 (although, addmitedly, they might not be "special" -- at least in the way MD means it).
Norm, let rephrase correctly.
The critics' "physics" tends to be real physics, the "physics" of MD tends to be zero factual basis and believed only by the ignorant and gullible.
The ignorant have little problem believing MD (lack of) physics as they have no understanding of real physics. To them, sound tweaks like audio cable and total snake oil like pebbles seem to have the same factual basis. They are the individuals that folks like GK can exploit. You, Jim and a few other folks demonstrate a high degree of lack of understanding. Even now, you probably do not have a good understanding as to why some power cables may improve sound.
Once understanding of the physics behind tweaks is achieved, it is very easy to discriminate between what will work and what is placebo. There is no black magic in audio ... there never was, there never will be and the sure isn't any now.
The fact that you think that some aspects of physics is in some way out of date demonstrates a total lack of understanding of what science is about.
Pauly, I don't want to go through this once again with you. I was a physics major, among other majors, in the 1960s. Physics today is quite different than then. I read Scientific American and have several friends in the Physics department. In reality, I doubt very much that you have any understanding of physics or the limitations on our knowledge of natural phenomena.
If something that fails to be explained by our limited knowledge, it is a challenge to our theories and understanding. Rejection of an observation that is contrary to a theory is a challenge to the theory and not to be dismissed as an accident or to be swept under the carpet and ignored.
You, my dear sir, are a pseudo-scientist.
+++ I was a physics major, among other majors, in the 1960s +++
Good for you Norm, you have a bachelors degree. My secretary has an MBA.
+++ In reality, I doubt very much that you have any understanding of physics or the limitations on our knowledge of natural phenomena. +++
Yep, and Geoff K is so way ahead of me, I just dont know what I am missing?
+++ Rejection of an observation +++
I have yet to reject the findings of observation even once in my life.
Two weeks I tested a SS, wooden and plastic outlet cover plates back to back. Observation = zero difference.
So far from being swept under the carpet, the so-called cover plate tweak is nothing other than crap.
+++ You, my dear sir, are a pseudo-scientist. +++
LOL, coming from somebody that spends $1K on holograms and supports Machina Dynamics, you must forgive me for not taking that comment seriously.
Theres an old saying Norm, a fool and his money is easily parted. Old Geoff parts you with your money with little trouble.