ah, another philosphical discussion. it has no conclusion. it generates heat but very little light.
i t does not matter what component you discuss, be self reliant, do your own research and answer your own question.
it has been said many times. use your ears thay are a useful appendage, especially in audio where the mouth sometimes can get oneself into trouble.
some questions don't have to be asked.
sometimes it is wiser to conceal ignorance. there are exceptions, of course, and health is the paramount one.
it is certailnly more important than a component. |
hi blazerfan:
i spoke to a cable designer and asked him which cable he thought had greater impact on the sound of a stereo system.
his answer, the intreface between source and preamp.
there are many ics and ac cords, so it is a bit presumptuous to make such a statement which includes the word "undeniable". obviously, it's your ears and your opinion.
however, another philosophical discussion could ensue which has no conclusion.
many of these discussions have as their subject a rhetorical question. in this case there is no definitive answer to the question : "which cable has greater impact on a stereo system ?".
one can discuss the merits of ics ve ac cords, but there is no way to remove reasonable doubt as to which cable is more critical in its effect upon a stereo system. |
hi almarg:
there may be cables which produce consistent results from one stereo system to another.
perhaps you haven't found one, but if your hypothesis is as stated, and un proven, i.e., an opinion, all it takes is one exception, i.e., one cable which gives consistent results when placed in different stereo systems.
it is impossible to listen to all cables and so your propositions are based , i assume, upon inductive reasoning.
i have heard cables which have similar effects in different stereo systems.
for example, a cable that has some subtractive colorations in one system, will probably exhibit these colorations in other stereo systems.there are so many variable that it is highly conjectural to propose cable--stereo system relationships as if they are facts or knowledge.
it's more useful to have an open mind and not be bound by constraining propositions. |
i am reviewing some line cords which might be the exception to the your experience. that is its performance in different stereo systems might be very similar.
i will not mention the product until it has appeared in review form on audiophilia.com.
one would expect that as a cable becomes less and less "colored", its performance would become more similar when placed in stereo systems. |
hi rrog:
when something sounds good, where audiophiles are involved, there is usually some disagreement. what constitutes "good" sound is subjective, so, i repeat, undeniable and opinion are oxymorons. |
hi byron:
i believe if you change the amp using the same cord, the roll off may disappear. if it doesn't, it suggests the cord may have a problem. you can't know what is causing the roll off until you co vary the power cord and amp.
a thorough logical analysis is required when you have two variables to look at. |
there are very few phenomenon in life that are undeniable.
the basis for such a statement, that power cords differ, sonically, is sense perception.
how can something as imperfect as hearing be undeniable. in no way can one assert that "line cords differ sonically is knowledge".
by the way if someone uses the word undeniable, that person better be able to provide indubitable evidence or proof.
that one says i hear something, therefore it is undeniable, or 100 people hear something is undeniable is not based upon logic, but rather induction.
there are serious issues of logic here that need to be considered.
are there any necessary and sufficient conditions associated with perceptions ?
by the way, i have not said that line cords sound the same, but the differences perceived are opinions, not facts, as they are probobaliistic in nature.
what is the problem with asserting that one believes that line cords sound different based upon comparisons, and admitting that such an assertion is an opinion.
there is opinion , fact and knowledge. it is important to consider the distinction between opinion and fact. |
hi doug:
ceteris paribus, if you have one power cord and two amps, and the bass is rolled with one amp and not with the other, the problem may not be with the cable.
as a practical issue, if you like the amp you have, you may try different cords to see which, if any do not produce a roll off.
in any case, when you have an amp and a power cord, there are two variables. |
a cables intrinsic attributes can be impacted by the other components of a stereo system. for example, suppose, a power cord has an audible peak in the treble. bring that power cord to a system consisting of classic tube electronics and a speaker which may be attenuated in the treble. the character of the cable may be obscured.
if a stereo system is relatively uncolored and reasonably resolved, then the character of any component is relatively easy to discern. if a stereo system has some (egregious) or observable coloration it will be harder to identify the sonic nature of a component. |
when i was shopping for the quad 63, i visited several dealers until i heard what i liked. so it is obvious that speakers will sound different for a variety of reasons.
if i change my listening position from kneeling to sitting to standing, my quads (esl) will sound different. those who own this speaker will attest to my experiences.
changing ones seating position , while changing the sound of a stereo system, saying that the line cord contributed to the change in sound seems counter intuitive.
could someone explain how this could happen.
is it reasonable to also say that the performance of an amp could change with listening position.
listening position affects how sound is dispersed to your ears. amplifiers, power cords, and other passive and active components , excluding a speaker, do not disperse or propagate sound waves. |
do not confuse a component with a stereo system.
dispersion is at work when one changes the listening position. it has nothing to do with a compoent.
while you may prefer a line cord from one position or another, it is the same cord, and its function has not changed. what has changed is possibly frequency response, imaging, etc., because of the relationship between sound waves and your ears. |
let me add one statement which should end the discussion:
whether power cord a sounds different than power cord b in a stereo system is a function of a listener's perception. end of story.
i don't think it is necessary to justify one position or another.
oops that's two statements. sorry. |
cables are like tone controls or flavors of icecream. there are so many from which to select.
sometimes you might prefer one flavor, other times, you might prefer another. |
oops, typo--i meant well designed power suuplies--my bad.
i meant to say how do you test the hypothesis that well designed power supplies are insensitive to power cords ? |
hi liguy:
since you are an engineer, how would you test your hypoethsis that well-designed power cords are less sensitive to power cords ?
if you could devise a rigorous experimental design i might make tou a wager that the affect of differences in the sound of a stereo as power cords vary is independent of power supply.
keep in mind there are many variables which are involved in the fabrication of power cords. in your experienece, have you used gold, totanium, palladium, and other "exotic metals ? have you used a variety of iec connectors and plugs ?, have you used a variety of dielectric materials ?
all i am suggesting is the range of parts contained within a power cord could affect the sound of a stereo system , despite the best efforts of power supply design.
i will be convinced of your hypothesis when i hear the results. |
why are so many concerned with the affect of a power cord on the sound of a stereo system ?
it can't be answered with knowledge. one can only say that there is some probability that power cords influence the sound of stereo systems. the value of the probability cannot be determined.
this whole topic is a philosophical discussion in that there is no definitive conclusion. |
there are many discussions on thie forum categorized by component type. people ask for advice.
however it has been shown in the psychology and sociology journals, that people vary in their suceptibility to be influenced by others.
riesmann coined the terms "inner directed" and "other directed".
i suspect that inner directed audiophiles will do what they want regardless of what others say, while other directed audiophiles arem more easily influenced by the comments they read and will buy based upon reccomendations.
some people ask a question for the sake of eliciting opinions and creating a discussion or debate, but have no intention of acting on any suggestions they read. what a waste of time to do that.
so, a question to ask is are you other directed or inner directed ? this question could be a theme and may be one soon. |
we live in a stochastic world. there is a probability that power cords make a difference.
in the broader scheme of things it doesn't matter if there is a disagreement on this subject. if a consumer believes and hears a difference, that is all that matters.oo |
hi doug :
your logic is faulty.
you cannot know what any component sounds like.
i'll let you figure that out or prove to me how you can determine the sound of any component.
when you listen, you hear what comes out of a pair of speakers. there are many variables and there is insufficient information to figure out the sound of a component. |
hi doug :
your logic is faulty.
you cannot know what any component sounds like.
i'll let you figure that out or prove to me how you can determine the sound of any component.
when you listen, you hear what comes out of a pair of speakers. there are many variables and there is insufficient information to figure out the sound of a component.
when you talk about differences in the sound of components, uyou really are observing the affect of changing components upon the sound of a stereo system.
let me put in equation form: ss=f(c(i)), that is the sound of a stereo system is a function of the sound of the components within the stereo system. what is the equation ?? it is impossible to specify the equation and solve for the independent vraiables. |
i think most would agree that many statements made on the discussion forums cannot be proven, because they are opinions, not facts or knowledge. |
hi doug:
you have misrepresented my statements and you display an ignorance of mathematics. this is not a matter of philosophy.
the issue concerns mathematics, and specifically the concept of a diophantine equation.
it's really quite simple. i indicated the nature of the relationship between a stereo system and the components therein in functional form.
first , let's construct a paradigm.
you listen to a stereo system for the first time.
thus you do not know what any individual component sounds like.
you can listen to the stereo system as long as you wish. you can't isolate the sound of a component and describe it, because you are listening to the sound of a stereo system.
you are not listening to one component
next, you substitute, say another amplifier. the sound of a the stereo system changes.
all you can say is the insertion of the amplifier produced a change in the sound of a stereo system, and describe the sound of the stereo system.
in the end, you have created comments about two stereo systems.
if you compare the comments you can discern the affect of the amplifier change upon the stereo system, but you cannot describe the sound of either amplifier.
so, a review is essentially, a discussion of the affect of the sound of the review sample upon the sound of a stereo system. a review does not describe the sound of the review sample.
if you state that a component has a sound, and describe it, you are being illogical, violating the laws of mathematics, and lying to your readers.
your suggestions regarding a caveat to the reader are a non-sequitur.
you are welcome to read my reviews and comment as you see fit, but your reasoning is unsound.
you should learn some mathematics before you speak. |
hi tbg:
i disagree, but it seems each one of us looks at words and has his own interpretation.
for a reviewer to say there is a benefit of the second amp is not a review.
i would never use such terms in my review.
i have already stated what a review is , namely a statement of the affect of a component upon the sound of a stereo system. |
hi doug:
if, as you say, i have directly stated that a component has a sound, i was in error. what i meant to say wae that the stereo system had a sound, when a particular component was part of that stereo system.
p agree there is nothing more to say.
if perchance you should read one my reviews, i am describing the sound of a stereo system with the review sample(s) substituted for other components.
i always describe what i am hearing, not the sound of a component. |
hi dave:
i write for audiophilia.com. if you do a search on my name, you will find a variety of essays that are not reviews.
if you read any review i would appreciate feedback as to your attitude regarding my reviewing style. |
too much analysis leads to paralysis.
the placebo effect is alive and well.
what difference does it make if powercords make a difference in sound or they don't make any difference in sound.
there is no way to prove, using analytic a priori deductive methods.
so any empirical proof would be based upon statistics or induction.
it has been suggested that a blind test be used to test for differences in the "sound" of power cords.
blind tests do not prove anything.
any statement based upon perception is essentially probabilistic, hence does not prove anything.
all of the efforts to justify that power cords differ in their affect upon a stereo system amount to a philosophical discussion, with no conclusion.
the senses are unreliable.
the only way to deal with this issue is a mathematical proof. |
in the world of audio nothing is undeniable.
claims about differences cannot be definitively substantiated without a mathematical proof as knowledge can not come from sensation. the latter is unreliable.
most of the comments so far, are nothing more than bs. |
I have discussed the subject of designing an amp with a fixed power cord or an iec. several have said that an iec degrades the sound, and a well designed permanently attached will provide superior sign. in fact, conrad johnson wasa using attachable power cords for a long time, and only recently designed their amps and preamps with an iec for marketing reasons, not sonic ones.
at this point in the discussion, i would think that one can sum it all up by the following:
those who believe power cords make a difference are entitled to tehir opinion, while those who don't are entitled to their s' .
there is no way to prove the hypothesis that powercords make a difference, it may or may not be true.
any thing else to say is probably redundant |
hi rwwear:
a a blind test only does not reject the null hypothesis.
proof requires deduction, not listening.
proof requires mathematics or logic.
what you call proof is not proof of certainty or truth.
you cannot say something is true because you hear it, or because 1000 people hear it.
i don't reject what you say about blind tests and i will accept that people hear differences. i myself, own several after market line cords.
my only point is that listening does not lead to knowledge. |
hi rvwear:
when there is a blind or double blind test, statistics is used to evaluate the result
statistics delas with probability, not certainty.
when you are talking about knowledge, truth and certainty are required. a mathematical proof is required to determine whether something is true.
when you are talking about differences in sound between one component and another , and whether the difference is detectable, some people can detect a difference, while others can't. thus there is a probability that a difference can be detected. probability is not certainty and hence knowledge is not established.
however, one may have confidence that powercords sound different. one does not know with certainty that powercords sound different.
when dealing with probability you are dealing with opinion. |
