Do I want a sub with VR-4jr's?

Hi everyone
I have a set of Von schweikert vr4jrs, powered by a sim audio processor and bel canto amps. I love the sound. I am using them for 85% music and 15% Home theatre. I am thinking about getting a sub to round out the extreme bottom end, but I am left thinking that due to the excellent low end extension of the jr's that I may not realise much benefit. If I do buy a sub I have no problem getting good it Rel, MJ or whatever.
Any recommendations? What subs do you think would work well for *seamless* integration with music and maybe help HT use?
My musical preferance is ANYTHING but country.
A REL or other high quality dedicated sub will give highly accurate extreme LF bass. This is useful in the 20 to 50 Hz range if you have monitor type speakers (designed for very low bass distortion and consequently limited in bass LF extension).

I can only suspect that your speakers neither need a sub and nor would they be easy to set up with a sub; they would share energy in the same frequency range making a match difficult.
Lots of hours of work to get it set up. Worth it on HT.
Yes, you do want it. I have been using Velodyne DD-15 with my VR-4jr's and the sub addition made a very significant difference for 2-ch music, and even more significant for HT.
Velodyne DD series is very easy to integrate with any speakers b.c of it digital equal. capacity.
It will cost you a lot to hear the last 5Hz in the audible range. Not only moneywise but trying to integrate it and messing with placement. They have very good bass, but if you need that last bit then a sub would help. I've heard it with a sub and it does fill the sound out more. but without a sub it has solid deep bass minus the very bottom end.

It's up to you.

Best of luck,
Thanks for the input guys. I am very happy with the sound so far, but I can tell I am lacking the very bottom of the audible range. I think that a very good sub, crossed over quite low, could add nicely.

Would you recommend DD-15, REL, MJ ??? others? The emphasis is on very low freq bass obviously and it must integrate very well.

How do you like the signal cable products with your system? I also have the 3910 and I am considering using all signal cable ic's in my system.
I like Signal Cable just fine.
I can tell I am lacking the very bottom of the audible range

I read somewhere that these speakers are specified flat down to 23 Hz +/- 2db... This is simpy an amazing specification. There is no possible way you should be lacking low end if these specifications are correct...unless you have a very large room or something is wrong with the speakers.

What is your source - are you quite sure you are sending the full LF range to your speakers? Do you have perhaps a huge room size?
"It will cost you a lot to hear the last 5Hz in the audible range"
VR-4jr specs claim output at 28Hz, you'd be surprized to see the actual freq. response curve of the main speakers as measured by Velodyne's microphone. It's far from the claimed 28Hz. Velodyne pretty much will fill-in below 40-45 Hz down to 15-20 Hz. Not exactly "last 5 Hz".
The audible difference is very significant, and integration is not all that cumbersome,but again, it will cost you.
I have Aerial 9's -- rated to 29hz and I have a REL sub set at about 28hz. I mostly leave it off but once in a while when listening to music (especially at low volumes, but also during rowdier moments) and always during films, I like it a lot.
I would check out a Rel Storm III, or Bagend sub. They are the easier ones to integrate IMHO. Personally, I haven't had luck making a sub work where I didn't notice there was a seperate sub attached. Great for movies though.

Have you tried moving the VR4jr's closer to the wall?
I have the 4JRS and a VRS-1 Sub that I only use in HT (works great). In 2 channel, I believe that bass reproduction is a function of amplification, placement, and the source material. I have a tube amp and the 4JRs kick very nice bass out with a lot of music but not all. IMO, the speakers can bring the bass, but will not overemphasize it at all in material where it is somewhat weak. Make sure to use lead shot and follow the advice in the manual about bass tuning.
The speakers are close tothe side walls and the room is medium small. Whehn I say " I am missing the very bottom of the audible range" I mean very low. The dpeakers are great, but their is roll off down low. They just lack the tight punch that a good sub could bring......I think. Just a small sharpening of the leading edge of a bass drum. The overall sense of weight or feel of an orchestra.....
I will post once I have a sub. I think that it should work well. I am sort of leaning toward the velodyne dd15. I like the idea of seeing the freq response, then listening, and tweaking that way.
for all your help
It is so difficult to give opinions to somebody, whose listening preferences and the soundprint of his/her system in an unkonwn room is likely different than mine. I have tried recently to complement with a sub my Wilson Benesch Act One speaker, which is rolling off at 35hz. I am listening mostly classical music at moderate level. As for classical music concerned, I felt that practically there is no need to complement my speakers with a sub. Most of the music is such that it does not trigger the sub, and once the sub is triggered, it was difficult to decide whether it was helpful or it was too much oomph. None the less, when I played electronic music (Suzanne Vega-Led Zeppelin-etc), the sub was continouosly working giving a floor shattering bass. So, If I would play mostly electronic music and I would go for floorshattering bass (and I would live not in an block of apartments but in a house) I likely go for a sub. But given my listening preferences, and my conditions as far as living concerned, I personally felt, that there is no need for sub in my system.

Semantics may cause me to misinterpret what you hope to gain with a sub. I may think of "punch" in a different way....I think of a tight bass as "punchy" kind of hits you hard. So please disregard this if I have misinterpreted your meaning....

There is not much "punch" in the frequencies below about 100 Hz...I fear you may be disappointed in your sub addition. Punch can come from a number of factors....a big amplifier with exceptional damping factor, a critically damped base driver, a speaker cabinet with no resonances or tuned ports (these are hard to drive), and the phase alignment between drivers: tweeter, mid and base. Very light and stiff driver materials can increase the punchy sound but this needs to be very carefully balanced with ringing resonance distortion (like a bell, a stiff cone can vibrate at certain frequencies which can make the bass sound boomy, especially a challenge with metal drivers). All these factors affect how much "punch" you get in the base.

I have not heard a woofer really deliver "punch". Such low frequencies simply do not lend themselves to producing that effect. Sub woofers produce sounds from vibrations (inaudible but you feel them) to a powerful deep "thud" (like a tyrannosaur is supposed to make as it walks beside your house).

Of course, you could eliminate the band limiting filter on your sub woofer, which would allow it to deliver "punch", however, the sub sound will become directional and disassociate from your other speaker drivers, producing a confusing soundstage to the ears.
I agree with Shadorne. I guess we'll have to wait until you report back, but the VS's inside of a room with boundaries actually almost covers almost everything audible. It shakes the floor without a sub. The sub offering a few of the bottom Hz will almost be unnoticeable, and bass energy it could brings if turned to higher levels than natural will muddy up the rest of the sound (artificially added bass).

Yeah, you want a sub. You've gotta have that foundation if you want to be a true playa. Rel is the most musical, but velodyne DD is close and the built in EQ, TV graph hookup, mic, remote control, etc makes it the clear winner in this arena. On my DD15, I have different EQ and sub volumes set for dramas, action movies, jazz/classical, rock, and EQ defeat all available off of the remote. You can't do that with a rel, unfortunately.
I would like to hear a REL sub based on their reputation for blending seamlessly. I think that the DD line up ultimately will sound better due to being able to tweak them to fit the room space accoustically. The 4jr's are supposed to play down to about mid 20hz range. On paper, the sub would be useless. I just think that, in my room, I could add a bit of bottom end to give depth.

Shadorne... I think that perhaps you are right about punch. I have been a percussionist for a long time and what I am not hearing is not punch per is more depth or weight to the sound. Maybe that is more feel in the barely audible LF range.

I think that the gain will be a small one, but small is a relative term. I am sure it will be more of a gain than cables..... or racing stickers on a honda civic.

Let the sub auditioning begin..........
"I think that the gain will be a small one"

I would disagree here. Do this right, and the performance gain will be monumental.

You switch cables, and you say "do I hear something different? i dont know" so you change them back and forth and can't pick anything up.

You add a quality sub to your system, and you will have:
* Bass dynamics
* Very clear fleshing out of soundstage and dynamics throughout the rest of the spectrum
* Other stuff, but i'm in a meeting and people are giving me looks so I need to close this
So I finaly got around to buying a test cd and measuring with an spl meter. Turns out there is a huge dip in the low end. I am loosing about 10-20db down around 32hz and below. I dont have any crossovers in the system, and I moved around the room with he same result so I dont think I was measuring in a null.....I wonder what the problem is?

where did your vr4jrs roll off in your system?