Bob, I did check that I am using the dedicated stereo outputs on the Oppo. Those are separate outputs entirely from the 7.1, so there is no room for confusion. |
I apologize for not mentioning in the last comment that Bob Reynolds is already recommending the SVS SB2000 over the Hsus for my system. Any other comments specifically towards these three models are welcome. |
Lloyd, you mentioned about having setup options. The Hsu VTF 15H offers more options with regard to fine-tuning, according to what I understood from the web site. I am somehow leaning towards this model from a power and flexibility standpoint but also feel that I will be taking a risk with this model. The reason it is a risk is that this model is beind sold at a discount and there is no return policy on it. I feel that the SVS SB 2000 is the safest bet because of their return policies. However, I am leaning towards taking a risk with the Hsu VTF 15H. Not sure if this is the right thing to do. Any help is welcome. |
Thank you Lloyd. I will try a more powerful amp if I can get one. Good suggestion and thanks for the detailed explanation on the physics.
Marty, I have researched the brands you suggested. My options are a pair of SVS SB1000, a single SVS SB2000, a single Hsu VTF 15H or ULS 15, or a single Rhythmik F12.
The Hsu VTF 15H or ULS 15 are the best deals at the moment - a Black Friday special.
I would rather buy a single higher end now and add one more later.
Please let me know which one you think fits my need the best - my needs are musical rather than movies. |
Lloyd, When you suggest a more powerful amp, what level of power should I consider? My NAD 365BEE is 80W per channel. I could consider something like an Anthem integrated amp at 225W per channel. Should I consider other brands or wattage as well? My spend comfort is around 2K. Thanks again! |
Thank you all for your comments, all of which are very helpful. I will definitely try adding a separate amp down the line and using the NAD I have as a preamp - I'm glad that is possible. Lloyd, I will take you up on raising the sub - that sounds like an interesting and worthwhile thing to try.
I still am debating SVS SB 2000 vs Hsu VTF 15H vs Hsu ULS 15. My needs are music oriented rather than HT. Any comments specific to these three choices for music rather than HT would be most welcome, to help me with my decision. Thanks again all! |
Bob/All, GREAT NEWS!!!
I adjusted my speaker positions around until the zone they transmit to overlap further. Also, brought the speakers further in front and closer to each other - roughly 4 feet apart. I also re-checked the connector between the Oppo and the NAD and reset the Oppo settings back to their defaults.
Result was MAGICAL.
Fullness of sound TRIPLED.
Soundstage QUADRUPLED (just saying - not based on actual measurement).
Based upon the current situation, I don't think I need another amp. I am getting the effect I want at a quarter of the full volume.
I don't even know if a sub is required, but I will definitely give it a try to see if there is a further effect.
THANKS ALL!!! |
Thank you all for taking the time to help me out. The inputs give me a few things to think about and will help me make a suitable decision. I am inclined to try out a couple of scenarios before I make my decision, based upon the inputs provided. This has been an enjoyable read. I appreciate everyone's help and hope to have a solidly punchy and bassy musical holiday season! Cheers all! |
I need to add the following observations on my situation and ask a few more questions. I am testing a variety of music on my current setup and my observation is that the bass drivers on my speakers are hardly being driven, even with bass heavy punchy songs. I tried to turn the volume up to see the effect that had - the other drivers reacted a lot more than the bass driver. Turning the bass control on the amp increased the bass but not in a satisfactory way - the sound was muffled.
First - I would like to ask (apologies if this is getting repetitive) if this is due to the amplifier- to remind everyone, this is a NAD C375BEE integrated amplifier, at 80W per channel.
Second - my Wharfdale EVO 50s continue to satisfy me at the high end but are practically non-existent at the lower end. Is this a speaker issue? Does anyone have experience with these particular speakers? Should I consider replacing the speakers to get the full sound I seek?
Third - if this is an amp issue and adding a power amplifier to this setup and using my integrated as a preamp is the way to go, can I go with a NAD C275BEE, which is a power amp at 150W per channel? Will that be good enough or do I need to go higher such as a NAD M series? How high should I go to see a distinct difference in the fullness of the sound I want? |
I do notice a difference between standing and sitting. In fact, I now listen standing up, at that aforementioned 4 ft away position.
I will certainly take you up on the cables - I ordered a garden variety on Amazon but can return that.
I noticed that Ethan Winer is based in CT - Cool! I am only a state away in MA. Are you the jazz saxophonist Bob Reynolds who I see on Wikipedia? If so, I am impressed and even more grateful for your time. |
Thanks all for your continued guidance.
ZD, I believe the connections are in phase - I checked them. I rechecked the Oppo settings and changed two - one said Stereo down-mixed which I changed to Front 1-2, and the other said Crossover 80 Hz which I changed to 40. Other than that, I did not see anything worth changing. I think these made a difference in the fullness of sound, but could not be completely sure. I need a way to measure that.
Bob, Sprks, I completely agree that I need to figure out the room correction and measurement aspect before I make any changes. I am concerned that even with my current setup, which is not shabby (I think), I am not getting enough out of it. The suggestions you made will help me get there.
Others, I am open, even excited, about getting a sub and a better amp - after optimizing my current situation a little more`- and need some more guidance on the amp front. I need to determine whether I should go integrated or separate pre-power. I also need some opinions on the brand I can get without breaking my bank (3K) and would to consider something other than a NAD. I once demo-ed a MF M6i integrated which I really liked, driving Paradigm Studio 60s - thought it more musical than an Anthem integrated 225 I was comparing with. I could also consider a Krell 550i as I read good things about it. Beyond that, I am unsure what else to consider, especially when going separate. |
I have been standing in the middle of the room, about 4 ft away from the speakers, dancing in delight :) Ordinarily, I would sit 8-10 feet away on my couch. I could adjust them a little I suppose, to accommodate the normal listening position.
I ordered a SV2000 subwoofer right now and will let you know how that improves the situation! |
I just have to add this because I'm THIRLLED. There is a sweet spot that can be achieved. I have found it by moving things around - speakers, furniture, myself. Having found it, I am going through my collection - Bach - Julia Fischer, Hilary Hahn; Barber, Corigliano. Chris Botti. Everything sounds AMAZING. This is what I have been pursuing for a while. I am in HEAVEN. |
The 4 ft separation is the best I can achieve given my room, I ran into space issues with my furniture and a fireplace on one side. The important things I did was to bring my speakers out far enough in front such that there is nothing barging into the sound (such as a sofa that partly impeded the sound cone, if you will - I am referring to the area the sound may emit into). I then angled them more towards each other (say roughly 35 degrees from the center line). If I stand roughly 4-5 feet from the speakers on the horizontal straight dividing them, or closer, I get outstanding soundstage, which varies as I walk close to the speakers in in interesting way. If I walk back further than 4-5 feet, there is a drop in soundstage. I am trying to adjust the angle now to bring the sweet spot closer to my sitting position, which is a good 9.5 feet away from where the speakers are at the moment. I am ordering a SPL meter to make this a little more scientific - saw a product named Galaxy Audio CM 140 on Amazon. This is cool stuff. |
Excellent article on using SPL meters on RealTraps.
http://realtraps.com/art_spl.htm |
One thing I am curious about is why my setup responds so well to high-pitched instruments such as violins and trumpets, which sound really loud and lush, whereas solo piano sounds a lot more muted. With the former, I can barely push the volume up more than a quarter way, or wife complains, With solo piano, I went up to max volume and it did sound loud then, but the loudness was a lot less pronounced and the sound jars a little. The mid level speakers are the main ones that seem to be pushed in this case. Is it normal for piano to be less loud than other instruments. |
Sorry about the shot in the dark. Grateful anyway. The piano reproduction in my setup is the worst of the lot. I have always suspected it but for the past couple of days I have focused on playing solo piano pieces and find the sound to be artificial. I don't know if it's the reproduction or the recording. I don't know if you know of a high quality solo piano recording I can try, I tried Artur Rubenstein Chopin, Vladimir Ashkenazy Bach, and a audiophile high res download of Bill Evans Waltz for Debby. I had my son play on a real piano alongside. This additionally confirmed that the notes from the system sound artificial. It may be that the system itself is not effective in this area - the mid level drivers are the ones that seem to be used.
My room has all hard surfaces. The furniture is all leather. There are no drapes - just blinds.
I will surely read all the articles. I have been reading in all my spare hours and switching from article to article. |
Good advice Zd. Can you explain what you mean by a reference system? Do you mean an equipment setup put together by a dealer, for example, that is able to reproduce the sound the way I like it? I can try a local dealer that is willing to do that. I also need to find a piano recording that can be used in such a reference system, or even my own. By doing so, I would eliminate the effect of a poor recording. If you know of one, please let me know. I thought of contacting hdtracks.com to see if they will even respond to this question. |
I found this thread on good piano recordings somewhere and will give these a try.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=31982.0 |
I am also looking to change the connector between my Oppo blu ray player and the amp, to eliminate that from the question. It is a cheap connector. I will try the blu jeans place,. I spoke to an audio store near where I live. The guy is quirky but has been in business for a while. He suggested not using a blu ray player but rather going with a CD player. This may be worth trying if the Oppo is giving it a digital sound. I am also getting my Music Hall MMF 2.1 turntable fixed by him so I can compare the same recording from both aspects (assuming the recording exists on vinyl as well). This will tell me if the digital aspect of the setup is the issue. |
I am seriously considering tape at this point :) (partly joking) I found a recording studio mentioned in that link in my post earlier that will actually make them as custom orders - at $125 each! I wonder if the sound on tape would be better than on CD and what tape players are now available. Interestingly, my NAD player has tape inputs. |
Thanks Verneal, for your suggestion. I have moved beyond the subwoofer at this point. I should probably start a new thread. |
ordered a few of the CDs mentioned in that earlier post. Will let you guys know if they sound any better on my system than the previous ones I mentioned. |
Quick update - subwoofer arrived along with "reference" music. Reference music was a huge disappointment. Had to go back to my Bill Evans Waltz for Debby hi-res from HDTracks. Cable not here yet so cannot set subwoofer up but just one comment - it is much bigger than I thought it would be, and I'm glad I did not order the SB12 Plus Ultra, as it would have probably resulted in divorce papers :) |
All, I welcome everyone's opinions and they all have been very helpful to me. In fact, I have been re-reading this post over and over as it has a lot of useful content. I have learnt a lot from this discussion and it has clarified my ideas. I intent to put a couple more observations after getting the sub and then we can call this a day. Thanks to everyone for their time. SG |
The build quality is fantastic - beyond my expectations. it's heavy too. I ordered the piano black finish by the way. Will let you know how it sounds after cables arrive. |
Finally set everything up today. I was confused about the cables (got a single one from Blue Jeans, then had to order a Y adapter to connect to the stereo outputs). Also, you cannot connect this to Pre 1 on the NAD as there is a hard connection (bridge?) between that and Main, and no sound comes out of your front speakers if you take it out. NAD has a handy Pre 2 with a volume control on its own :) Having figured this out, next challenge was the settings on the sub itself. Initially, the presence was not felt or very minimal. I put the frequency to LFE, the Phase to the other end of 180 degrees (0 degrees ?), and the volume on both pre and sub to max. Now it is making its presence felt :) I can distinctly hear the bass guitars on it, much more pronounced than I ever have. This is precisely the aspect my friends had complained about, Current placement is left of left front speaker, pointing towards center of room where current listening position is. SVS recommends putting it in the corner of the room, which I can also try. For the moment, I am happy, but I will need to keep tweaking and start measuring. I also changed the cables between the Oppo and the NAD amp with a Blue Jeans stereo cable, separately, and that had already improved the sound level at least. I am now a believer in subs and am already looking forward to a second! Also, I am wondering if an audiophile grade rack (not a bank breaker) would further improve anything. I need a new rack for better organization, but was wondering about an audio one. Thoughts welcome, |
I am getting my turntable back and will conduct some digital vs audio tests in the near future. Also, I am thinking of adding a tube phono stage to the setup - thinking of a Bellari VP 130 which has good reviews for bang for buck. Thoughts welcome. |
Wow! It makes a significant difference to the sound of the piano as well! |
After talking to SVS support, I realized that the crossover was too high, and that phase apparently is not something I need to worry about. I learnt about localization. I still have my crossover high and I don't think it is that localized - I suppose every room is different and tastes differ as well, I am liking it with the crossover high at least with piano, as the low frequency piano notes are now a lot more audible and I like that. Not sure if this is the wrong thing to do but I am ignoring that advice. |
One interesting test I tried was to shut the main speakers off. This allowed me to independently test the effect of the subwoofers and adjust settings until I got what I liked the most. This was an useful test for me, |
